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Thump-Bang Failures? TF-30s catching fire at ~1.2M


Quid

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Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening,

 

Congratulations on the F-14A release!

 

I've noticed a potential bug: while testing out the F-14A flight envelope, I've noticed the TF-30 engines have been having trouble punching past about 1.1M at high altitude (~35,000-38,000 feet). I did an initial flight test (deck launched intercept vs. 2x F-5Es) and noticed on the way back that the plane was not getting very fast in max A/B; I figured maybe this was because I still had tanks, rails, etc., and got the jet to about 1.5-ish in a dive (through 15,000 feet from 30,000). So, I figured I'd do some speed runs to compare to the F110. I stripped all of the rails, tanks, etc. and ran the mission in Persian Gulf (US Standard Day conditions) to see how fast the plane would go. As it was taking a while to get past 1.1M, I switched on the auto-pilot and after a few more seconds got twin stall warnings, and also a fire warning. I switched to external, and both engines were on fire. I figured that was strange. So, I restarted without touching my physical throttles (still at max), loaded back in, and once the game noticed their position, the engines exploded again. I didn't take a track of that one, figuring it was the mechanical components of the engine modeled going from 0 to 100% in a fraction of a second. That was my fault. Brought the throttles back to 0, restarted, no fire, good. I throttled the engines to Zone 5, turned on autopilot, waited for it to accelerate, and again, just past 1.1M, the engines exploded.

 

Now, when I was going above 1.47M in the dive in the initial mission, I didn't turn on autopilot. So far, a common factor seems to be the A/P as the plane goes beyond supersonic. I've attached two tracks for analysis. I'll try to fly a few more in a bit, but have been testing other areas of the envelope.

 

Cheers!

Eng_Fire_1.trk

Eng_Fire_2.trk


Edited by Quid
Corrected dive speed for accuracy and added altitude - no track, was reviewing TacView.

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Okay, so I ran a few more tests; I think this might be related directly to the autopilot. While I was doing some clean, guns-only BFM tests, I decided to do a speed run on the way back to Nellis, and with a clean jet, no A/P, I got it to break 2.0M without catching fire (just shy of 2.1M and still accelerating, but burned down to under 2000lbs to get there!). After this, I re-ran my standard-day flight model test again, set autopilot, brought the throttles slowly up to Zone 5, let the plane run, and sure enough, right at around 1.1M, they exploded. Unfortunately, I forgot to take a track that time, but it was the same thing as the previous two attempts. Reviewing the TacView and tracks, 1.1M appears to be the magic number - every time the jet hit 1.1M with autopilot on, the engines blew up.

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Same issue here, but even without autopilot at Mach1.1 TIT go over 1200°C and both engines stall and fire (and fire extinguisher don't work). Altitude 38000ft, empty loadout.

And it seems the plane have difficulties to go over Mach 1.0, and after a long time (level flight) when it finally reach this 1.1..... Booom !!! Engine are on fiiiiire !!

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Just did some flying around and was able to go to Mach 2.4 from 36k feet in a dive, around 2.1 clean at 36k with no tanks but with the missile racks. She does seem rather slow to accelerate now, especially on the deck.

 

Did you ever turn your autopilot on? For me, it hasn't exploded without it, but now "diditopgun" apparently had the plane detonate without turning on A/P. I haven't. WRT max speed, I'm sure it will reach 2.4M straight and level with enough time and fuel, and it was still accelerating pretty well when I throttled back during the Nellis test - I just didn't have the gas to keep flying and land (touched down with 900lbs).

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Well, my theory is ruined - it just blew up at 1.1M on PG without A/P. See attached track. Now, time to test on other maps...

 

EDIT: now they're blowing up on Nellis either with or without A/P (track 4). This is strange, because as I mentioned above, I got it to just below 2.1M on Nellis post-BFM...

Eng_Fire_3.trk

Eng_Fire_4.trk

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Yeah, it's probably related to the engine getting too hot. Will try to reproduce. The stall warning also will go off in any overtemp condition. Kinda seems like something in the engine is getting cooked and results in a fire. I've taken the A up to Mach 2+ in level flight many times in the past week and never had any of these issues.


Edited by fat creason

Systems Engineer & FM Modeler

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Same here.

 

edit

 

Possibly one of the reasons to light the engines on fire:

 

Trying to engage the afterburners at:

- at high altitudes (+ 30.000ft) when at very slow speeds (~200 kts).

 

At very slow speeds and high altitudes, the TIT gauge shows the temperatures effectively going up to the danger marks, and when engaging the burners the engines will bang, shut-off and light on fire.

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Yeah, it's probably related to the engine getting too hot. Will try to reproduce. The stall warning also will go off in any overtemp condition. Kinda seems like something in the engine is getting cooked and results in a fire. I've taken the A up to Mach 2+ in level flight many times in the past week and never had any of these issues.

 

What alt. and ISA?

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Like an idiot, I didn't save the track file and only realized it after I hit the mission editor button, but I have more data to report. I was successfully able to get the jet past 2.0M twice, the second time according to TacView 2.48M in a straight line without the engines exploding at 1.1M. I apparently can't upload the TacView recording, unless there's a way around limitations on .acmi files, but what I did in both cases was accelerate at lower altitude past 1.1M. On the first flight, I was at 18026ft, on the second, I was at 12894 as I passed the "magic number." I continued to accelerate in a shallow climb until reaching about 40000 feet on the first flight, and at 38434 on the second. I set autopilot on on the second (yes, I know it's over the NATOPS limit) and no explosion. In both cases, the plane continued to accelerate until I was close to fuel starvation and had to cut throttles and coast to a base to land, both times landing with about 900lbs of fuel remaining.

 

So, the plane doesn't always explode at 1.1M - it seems as though every time I start at lower altitudes and accelerate through, the plane is fine. This is also what happened during my earlier gun fights followed by speed runs. Only starting at 35,000 feet, accelerating and hitting 1.1M seems to have cause an explosion. If someone knows how to post .acmis, I can post the TacViews, or I can go back and re-record and not forget to hit the "save track" button again.

 

Just wanted to pass along more findings.

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This just happened to me. Autopilot on, starting at ~6000 ft. I engaged full AB, dropped the tanks and climbed to 40,000 steeply at first, then gradually lowering the nose to about 5 degrees. Speed never reached M1.1 and after a while the engines exploded.

 

Very cool effect. (And I love the new sounds!)

 

 

Screen_201118_220802.thumb.png.f8583fbad984c9fdae086ca88dca684a.png

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If someone knows how to post .acmis, I can post the TacViews, or I can go back and re-record and not forget to hit the "save track" button again.

 

Put your ACMI in a zip file?

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+1 here. I believe I did have autopilot on at the time. I'll test it next time I'm able without autopilot to see what happens. I was surprised I couldn't push past mach 1.1 and doubly surprised when my engines exploded!

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I tried everything and could not reproduce this. 1.6 Mach level at like 38k feet, 2.4+ in a dive etc. A friend of mine said it has something to do with the TIT spiking out of limits in certain conditions.

 

Yeah I haven't seen it either yet. I did manage to blow up an engine by kicking full rudder at high mach...

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Same issue here, but even without autopilot at Mach1.1 TIT go over 1200°C and both engines stall and fire (and fire extinguisher don't work). Altitude 38000ft, empty loadout.

And it seems the plane have difficulties to go over Mach 1.0, and after a long time (level flight) when it finally reach this 1.1..... Booom !!! Engine are on fiiiiire !!

 

exactly the same here

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Here's another track in case you need more data.

 

To me it only happens if I accelerate at altitude. If I get fast (M1.2+) around 20k or less then climb without slowing down it's fine.

 

But, oddly, for me it wasn't happening with a clean plane, only with load on.

 

I assume it's related to the transonic drag bug? Probably when we can accelerate from Mach 0.9 to 1.1 in a reasonable amount of time the engines won't overheat as much in that regime either.

 

Maybe that's why I didn't get explosions when clean, I could power through the "danger zone" fast enough and cool down afterwards, but sitting on AB gritting my teeth for minutes as it struggles to crawl past Mach 1 with Phoenixes underneath cooks the engines.

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