[ALREADY REPORTED]SA-2 Misses 100% of the time due to lag pursuit

[Aarnoman]

DCS Version: DCS 2.5.6.57264

 

Brief description of bug: SA-2 SAM sites miss their target 100% of the time if target velocity is greater than ~300 knots.

 

Expected behaviour: SA-2 SAM's should be able to hit targets within effective weapons range (misses should be possible, but not 100% of the time). This problem is likely exacerbated by lack of proximity fuzing (missile never detonates prior to passing target).

 

Why is this important: SA-2 sites currently serve no Air-defence function in game with the exception of very slow moving targets, as Pk is 0 for any target moving at velocity > ~300 knots.

 

To reproduce: See attached mission file using an AI with threat reactions disabled. Sample track included.

 

Further information: this report, which still remains unadressed.

SA2-Test.miz

SA-2 Bug.trk

[BIGNEWY]

Thanks hit rate and accuracy have been reported for SA-2

 

 

[nighthawk2174]

Thanks hit rate and accuracy have been reported for SA-2

 

 

BigNewy can you also tack on the excessive G limit bug onto that report? Should be limited to 6g's (or lower as per the missiles altitude) but its set to 17G right now.

[GumidekCZ]

Hi BIGNEWY,

I found an SA-2 script with SA-2 missile properties including prox fuze and warhead together with an half lead guidance. The walues here are some correct, but mostly not - if compared to majority of open Soviet sources.

Biggest problem is the the fuse and warhead... resulting to missiles hit its target only if very slow or at  outbound course.

Fuse now in DCS set to only 20m - value Sigma inaccuracy of guidance is in script se to 50m.

 

On top of that, the fuse is activating in diferent distances for different type of airframes - BUG - (for F-5E fuze activate in longer distances than for MiG-21). I will not mention here different Damage models of each aircraft module

 

Very nice source of public data in this vid:

You can see there that operator could switch guidance between 3-types - not in DCS. They mostly fired two missiles with two different types of guidance to create evasive maneuvers much more difficult for pilot.

Fragments are leathal at lower altitudes up to 65m and at thin air (higher alts) up to 200m - if not leathal - it would damage airplane so pilot need to RTB or Eject.

There is also game which seems to be very convincing.

https://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Quote

Set the missile radio fuse. SOP calls for a "standard" fuse of 300m, however, I prefer the 100m. The standard is all the way to the left if you're wondering.

 

Smoke trail have to be much more opaque at higher altitudes:

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by GumidekCZ

[Flappie]

It was fixed today (tested with this track). Thanks ED.

[D4n]

2 hours ago, Flappie said:

It was fixed today (tested with this track). Thanks ED.

OMG NICE!! (I feared I wouldn't witness this day ^^)

your "this track" link is wrong though, @Flappie

[Flappie]

Just now, DanielNL said:

your "this track" link is wrong though, @Flappie

No it's not. The track I'm talking about is hidden somewhere in the OP.

[D4n]

Then link to the OP instead of to the entire thread please, thanks... avoids unnecessary confusion @Flappie

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/253259-already-reportedsa-2-misses-100-of-the-time-due-to-lag-pursuit/?tab=comments#comment-4485567

 

[D4n]

 

 

Strange, because afaik, each missile is launched manually on SA-2, not automatically x seconds after 1st missile.....

[GumidekCZ]

PN_coeffs tune for final interception stage to =1 (pure lead course). This is ED way to fix this problem?

SA-2 variant we have in DCS had never ever possibility to guide Pure lead.

Why ED not work on the warhead, fuze, 3 types of missile trajectories and ability to guide missile via optical sight under good weather conditions?

I know this is not SAM sim, but still, I thing that some of SAM systems deserves more love.

But HEy, SA-2 can finaly shot down something

[Mad_Shell]

Yes there are a number of problems with SAMs in general, not just SA-2.

 

The guidance modes are not accurate: IRL SAMs switch between several guidance methods (two points method, three point method, proportionnal navigation, etc...)  depending on the terrain, target altitude, speed and maneuvring. For example if a target flying at medium altitude plunge toward the ground to try to defeat the SAM, the method guidance can switch from pure leading to 3 points method so the missile won't crash into the ground. Or if a target begins to make high g evasive maneuvers the guidance will switch from leading to 2 or 3 points methods, so the missile doesn't lose all it's energy too fast. In DCS SAMs always seem to lead targets, which produces some ridiculous situations (https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/iuqn1a/how_to_defeat_sams_in_dcs/)

 

Some missiles speeds seem to be incorrect or have strange behaviours:

SA-10 max speed: IRL mach 5.5 ; DCS mach 4

SA-6 max speed: IRL mach 2.8  ; DCS mach 1.7

SA-11, SA-6, Tor, perhaps more: missile speed suddenly becomes constant while rocket is still burning (check missile speed in the below video https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/543358251694292992/805117090621030430/Digital_Combat_Simulator_Black_Shark_2021.01.30_-_17.13.01.02_Trim.mp4

 

IRL SA-10 has track-via-missile which allows to not give RWR warning, which isn't modelled in DCS

 

Not related to guidance, but as shrapnel is not modelled, kill distances in DCS are smaller than IRL (kill distance was around 60m for SA-2) 

[D4n]

There still is this way worse Tor issue......

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by DanielNL

[nighthawk2174]

1 hour ago, Mad_Shell said:

IRL SA-10 has track-via-missile which allows to not give RWR warning, which isn't modelled in DCS

For more modern versions of the SA10, the one we have uses the earlier SARH missile.

Edited January 30, 2021 by nighthawk2174

[Northstar98]

14 hours ago, nighthawk2174 said:

For more modern versions of the SA10, the one we have uses the earlier SARH missile.

 

 

Yeah, but it's kinda weird though, we have the 64N6E "Big Bird" surveillance/acquisition RADAR, which is a newer RADAR, more associated with the S-300PMU rather than the PS.

 

For the earlier SA-10s we should be using the ST-68U/36D6 "Tin Shield", which in fairness, there is a new model coming, though absolutely no idea when it'll be coming - there's so many teased models, some from years ago that we haven't heard anything from past their initial teasing. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Northstar98

[Mad_Shell]

30 minutes ago, nighthawk2174 said:

For more modern versions of the SA10, the one we have uses the earlier SARH missile.

 

Oh I just checked and you're right! I guess ED has to correct the in-game encyclopedia then, it's written that 5V55 missiles do have TVM guidance, while they don't

[Dagger71]

12 hours ago, DanielNL said:

There still is this way worse Tor issue......

 

 

Daniel ALL SAMs in DCS self destruct when the target is out of range  (altitude or distance).    This is not a TOR issue.

Also what you did was hijack this thread, which is against forum rules 1.14. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Dagger71

[D4n]

On 1/31/2021 at 12:04 AM, Dagger71 said:

Daniel ALL SAMs in DCS self destruct when the target is out of range  (altitude or distance).    This is not a TOR issue.

"Out of range"-definition for TOR is plain wrong currently, the trackfiles/videos prove it (missile still has speed to easily reach target, but then simply explodes).

 

On 1/31/2021 at 12:04 AM, Dagger71 said:

Also what you did was hijack this thread, which is against forum rules 1.14.

negative, nothing about "hijacking" in rule 1.14. Rule 1.5 is about "hijacking", but my SAM post is related to @Mad_Shell's post about reeeally detailed complaining about what's wrong with SA-2 currently.

[Chizh]

30.01.2021 в 21:54, nighthawk2174 сказал:

For more modern versions of the SA10, the one we have uses the earlier SARH missile.

 

5V55R - TVM

5V55K - command guidance

[nighthawk2174]

  

1 hour ago, Chizh said:

5V55R - TVM

5V55K - command guidance

 

I've never seen any references state that the 5V55R was anything but SARH.  With SAGG/TVM coming latter on in the 48N6.  OFC unless they were upgraded mid-life to have TVM.

Edited February 1, 2021 by nighthawk2174

[GGTharos]

On 1/30/2021 at 11:58 AM, Mad_Shell said:

IRL SA-10 has track-via-missile which allows to not give RWR warning, which isn't modelled in DCS

 

That is incorrect.  TVM is all about making the missile seeker cheap, and has no effect on RWRs.   There's no indication of any LPI features for this radar.

TVM and SARH are effectively the same, the difference is in where the heavy lifting for signal processing occurs.

Edited February 1, 2021 by GGTharos

[Mad_Shell]

On 2/2/2021 at 12:48 AM, GGTharos said:

 

That is incorrect.  TVM is all about making the missile seeker cheap, and has no effect on RWRs.   There's no indication of any LPI features for this radar.

TVM and SARH are effectively the same, the difference is in where the heavy lifting for signal processing occurs.

 

 

From what I've found, the SARH missile requires the ground radar to emit continuous waves to be guided. The RWR will easily interpret those waves as a missile launch and guidance. 

Anyway I don't want to pollute this thread with this discussion for too long.

Edited February 14 by Mad_Shell

[Dagger71]

23 hours ago, DanielNL said:

"Out of range"-definition for TOR is plain wrong currently, the trackfiles/videos prove it (missile still has speed to easily reach target, but then simply explodes).

DanielNL, for the last time.  ALL SAMs in DCS have hard coded limits.  When the target reaches that limit, the missile self destructs    EVERY red and blue SAM does this.

 

negative, nothing about "hijacking" in rule 1.14. Rule 1.5 is about "hijacking", but my SAM post is related to @Mad_Shell's post about reeeally detailed complaining about what's wrong with SA-2 currently.

1.14 specifically calls out  thread hijacking, so THIS thread is about  a specific bug with  to SA2.  If you want to add more to your wishlist topic, let's take it there. 

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Dagger71

[nighthawk2174]

18 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

That is incorrect.  TVM is all about making the missile seeker cheap, and has no effect on RWRs.   There's no indication of any LPI features for this radar.

TVM and SARH are effectively the same, the difference is in where the heavy lifting for signal processing occurs.

 

I thought the Russians used something called SAGG or is that the patriot?

[GGTharos]

TVM is called 'Retransmission homing guidance', and SAGG builds a bit of top of it.  For out discussion, there's no practical difference.   Certain S300 versions use SAGG, I don't know if PARIOT received an upgrade to do this as well.  The missiles have gone through some extensive upgrades (like GEM+) so who knows.

 

The manuals also clearly state that those systems switch to a guidance waveform, and so the RWR will sing.

[1qsb28]

So ive updated to the latest open beta after being away from DCS for a while... is there anyway to undo or roll back the so-called "update" to the sa-2 flight/performance model?  I has gone from some what unrealistic in its tracking behavior to a  wildly unrealistic super SAM in in its performance with endless energy and unlimited G.   It Is no longer even remotely usable for representing an sa-2 GUIDELINE. 

Yeah, the sa-2 before this update was easy to beat...But, *so was the real missile IRL.*  Literally any jet powered aircraft in Vietnam with the possible exception of the B-52 could easily out maneuver the missile, as long as the pilot could see it, with one simple turn into or under it.  I found on such story were an  A-6 at 200ft AGL beat FIVE SAMs in a row, yet in DCS a completely slick F-16 can barley out turn one missile, with about 90% of Sa-2s fired scoring a hit.  

 

So is it possible to undo just this update for just this SAM or maybe create a mod to put the Sa-2 back closer to what is was before? it seems far more unrealistic now than it previously...

Edited July 17, 2021 by 1qsb28
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