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[AS INTENDED] EHSD DESG shouldn't be prerequisite for all AUTO deliveries


ChickenSim
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EHSD Designation (DESG) is improperly implemented.

 

AUTO release mode

The AUTO release mode has been updated so it accurately simulates its behavior on the real aircraft.

The changes are as follows:

  1. AUTO is fully integrated with the INS system via the EHSD page.
  2. To enable AUTO mode, it is necessary that the INS is in DESIGNATION mode. Otherwise AUTO mode will not engage, and no bomb release will be possible. This affects all bomb types: GPs, LGBs and JDAMs.

The procedure to enable and use AUTO release mode is as follows:

  1. On the EHSD page, set the steering mode to WYPT or W/OS.
  2. Click on the DESG button (PB01) and box it. This will designate the current steer-point (waypoint, Mark-point, Target-point or their offsets) as the System Designated (SD) Target.
  3. The EHSD will show DESG STP on PB01. This indicates: DESIGNATION mode is enabled and that the steer-point and the SD are in the same location.
  4. Be aware that the INS will ALWAYS navigate towards the steer-point, not the SD.
  5. At this moment, the AUTO cues will appear (ALS, Release Cue, JDAM NIRD, etc).
  6. Now you can select a new target by using any of the aircraft’s sensors (TPOD, DMT, HUD, etc.).
  7. After the new designation, the EHSD will show DESG TGT on PB01. This indicates that the steer-point and the SD are not in the same location and that the aircraft is navigating towards the steerpoint.
  8. The AUTO cues will recalculate for the new SD.
  9. At this time, it is necessary to do a LONG WINC (pressing the Waypoint Increment HOTAS button for more than 0.8 seconds). This will accomplish the following: The SD location will be stored in Target-point 0 (T0) and T0 will become the new steer-point. It is at this point that the aircraft will start navigating towards the SD. The EHSD will show DESG STP on the PB01.
  10. Follow the AUTO cues for a successful release.
  11. Click on the DESG button to disengage the designation mode.
  12. Navigate towards your home base.

 

EHSD DESG is supposed to be one of 6 (5 in Night Attack) primary methods for designating a target, not a prerequisite for using AUTO attack symbology. (TACMAN Vol I, pg. 2-41, 2.4 - 2.4.1)

 

1 - Target contributor (H6.0), waypoint, waypoint offset, mark or mark offset designation on the EHSI/EHSD or DMT display utilizing pure INS data (bomb on coordinates)

2 - Visual designation using INS derived data in conjunction with LOS angles from the HUD aiming symbol

3 - TV designation using the DMT

4 - LST designation using the DMT

5 - Radar designation using the radar (II+)

6 - TPOD designation (H6.0).

7+ - TOO, WOF, CCIP (at weapon release), CCIP to AUTO conversion (while cross is limited), and point blank designations.

 

For Point Blank designations in particular, a prerequisite to perform one is that no other designation has been accomplished (this includes an EHSD DESG). (TACMAN Vol I, pg. 2-44, 2.4.2.1)

 

What I suspect happened is there was a misinterpretation of the Undesignation paragraph, where it explains that you can undesignate using the DESG pushbutton (or the undesignate button on the control stick), and this removes AUTO attack symbology (because it's an undesignation, not because it's a prerequisite for all AUTO deliveries). (TACMAN Vol I, pg. 2-53, 2.4.7)

 

Currently, the proper way to enter AUTO delivery modes using INS, ARBS/TV, and Point Blank designations are bugged/not functional, but CCIP to AUTO conversions work fine.

 

Tracks for each of these methods are attached.

CCIP to AUTO.trk

PB AUTO.trk

TV AUTO.trk

INS AUTO.trk

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Unfortunately in the latest updates (2010 and newer) the targeting system changed.

Now it is a requisite for an AUTO release to set the EHSD in DESG mode. This indeed will set the current steerpoint (waypoint, markpoint or targetpoint) as the selected target. The EHSD will show DESG STP, and AUTO calculations will be performed.

If you then select another target, using any onboard sensor, the EHSD will show DESG TGT. This means that the aircraft is STILL navigating towards the selected steerpoint but the target is elsewhere. AUTO calculations will be performed on the new target position but the aircraft will keep navigating towards the steerpoint.

You must long press Waypoint Increment, that will set the new target designation as Targetpoint 0 and then it will change the steerpoint from its current selection to T0 (Targetpoint 0) and the ESHD will go back to DESG STP, meaning that both the target and steerpoint are the same.

In any case, no AUTO calculation is performed unless the INS is prepped by setting the EHSD in DESG mode.

BTW, the EHSD is now considered another targeting sensor: MAP.

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

"The three most dangerous things in the world are a programmer with a soldering iron, a hardware type with a program patch and a user with an idea."

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Unfortunately in the latest updates (2010 and newer) the targeting system changed.

Now it is a requisite for an AUTO release to set the EHSD in DESG mode. This indeed will set the current steerpoint (waypoint, markpoint or targetpoint) as the selected target. The EHSD will show DESG STP, and AUTO calculations will be performed.

If you then select another target, using any onboard sensor, the EHSD will show DESG TGT. This means that the aircraft is STILL navigating towards the selected steerpoint but the target is elsewhere. AUTO calculations will be performed on the new target position but the aircraft will keep navigating towards the steerpoint.

You must long press Waypoint Increment, that will set the new target designation as Targetpoint 0 and then it will change the steerpoint from its current selection to T0 (Targetpoint 0) and the ESHD will go back to DESG STP, meaning that both the target and steerpoint are the same.

In any case, no AUTO calculation is performed unless the INS is prepped by setting the EHSD in DESG mode.

BTW, the EHSD is now considered another targeting sensor: MAP.

 

@Zeus67, I really don't think that's the case and implore you to clarify this misunderstanding with your SME.

 

You might be mixing this up with JDAM Target Contributor requirements, or confusing actual system requirements with best practices or SOPs to always turn your designation into a DESG-STP so that your symbology aligns properly.

 

Pressing DESG is required to perform an AUTO release on a steerpoint, yes. The DESG pushbutton turns your undesignated steer-to-point into a designated steer-to-point, and if you slew the target diamond off of this point it will tell you in order to prevent confusion about where your steering (not attack) symbology is aiming you.

 

But it's not a requirement to box it to "prime the INS" for an AUTO attack. The INS is always "primed" as long as you have good INS / GPS.

 

The existence of Point Blank designations and CCIP-to-AUTO conversions all but proves this. Point Blank designations require you to not have anything designated before transitioning directly into an AUTO release, and undesignating via the NWS switch on the control stick should also unbox DESG on the EHSD.

 

I've done this in the actual Harrier sim more recently than 2010.

 

If you don't believe me, just straight up ask your SME how they would conduct a Point Blank designation. I guarantee you it starts with "undesignate" or "unbox DESG".

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I discussed this at large with him. And he confirmed, no DESG, no AUTO.

CCIP to AUTO conversion indeed does not require DESG but that is because in this case the target is the CCIP spot on the ground.

I can't explain why it should be this way, but that is how our SME described how it works.

 

In fact, he gave us his SOP:

 

When nearing the IP press DESG and designate the IP as the target. Then use the TPOD to search for the true target and select it. EHSD will go into DESG TGT. Do a Long Winc and EHSD will go back to DESG STP.

I also asked about the NWS switch and its functionality is more complex than before:

- WIth an operational TPOD:

- It slaves TPOD to designated target (if it exists). Next press will undesignate.

- If no designated target: It slaves the TPOD to the VV (like the DMT).

- Press again, and it sets the TPOD into SNOWPLOW mode (fixed elevation and azimuth).

 

But I will tell him your observations.

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

"The three most dangerous things in the world are a programmer with a soldering iron, a hardware type with a program patch and a user with an idea."

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Thanks @Zeus67

 

Definitely not saying your SME is wrong, but his SOP is important for the reasons I described here and in discord.

 

The fact that there are exceptions to DESG being boxed should be a red flag that "no DESG, no AUTO" isn't necessarily true across the board.

 

I suspect the SME might be saying "no DESG, no AUTO" to mean specifically on steerpoints, or perhaps that's just his personal rule, but we can't know for sure unless we ask them to address Point Blank designations and exceptions to that "rule." I also suspect his workflow is to make his job easier/more efficient, not necessarily because the jet requires it to be done that way.

 

If you ask him if the Undesignate switch on the stick unboxes DESG, it would also help solve this mystery, because Point Blank designations shouldn't require DESG to be boxed either.

 

It's also possible that "No DESG, no AUTO" simply means "no designation, no AUTO", in which case I completely agree. That's how it should be.

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In today's patch notes I saw:

 

Fixed: EHSD DESG behavior when using AUTO release mode

 

Does anyone know what this actually means?

 

BUMP!

 

The sweeping changes to AUTO mode and EHSD DESG were made in the LAST patch, I would like to know what CHANGED about it in this most recent patch?

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It seems there has been some misinterpretation on what the EHSD DESG button does. Pressing it should simply designate the selected waypoint (or offset, markpoint etc) and show whether a designation exists or not. It should automatically become boxed if any system designation is created, either from pressing the button or from designating a target through any other sensor (e.g TPOD, DMT, HUD). It does not seem to be a button used to “prepare the INS for AUTO deliveries” for every other sensor.

 

It seems this confusion has come from the statement “no DESG, no AUTO”. Whilst yes this statement is true in that there must be a system designation present in order for the AUTO mode to work, a more clarified statement would be “no system designation present -> DESG is not boxed -> no AUTO drop available”.

 

As Zeus pointed out, the CCIP to AUTO conversion “worked without the DESG being prepped” but couldn’t explain why. The CCIP to AUTO system works by creating a target designation on initial press of the bomb pickle. As a target designation has been created, AUTO delivery becomes available and DESG should be automatically boxed as DESG-TGT. This should also translate to every other system that generates a system designation. With the other systems this is also the point where you would want to hold WINC to convert the target point to a steer point.

 

In short:

  • If a system designation is present then AUTO delivery is also available.
  • DESG is automatically boxed (as STP or TGT) if a system designation is present
  • Creating a target designation though any sensor (other than pressing the DESG button directly) should cause the DESG button to become boxed as DESG-TGT
  • Pressing NWS/Undesignate should remove any system designation and unbox DESG (excluding a certain TPOD case).
  • The SOP as described by the SME is still valid and should be followed whenever possible

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Yeah, as hair-splitting as this might seem now, they'll figure out fairly soon why it's an important distinction when they go to model Point Blanks.

 

[AS INTENDED] doesn't mean [CORRECT AS IS], but [AS INTENDED] is at least an answer to the question of foresight, if nothing else.

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  • 3 months later...

Bumping again to show this is incorrect behaviour.

 

Quote

In any case, no AUTO calculation is performed unless the INS is prepped by setting the EHSD in DESG mode.

 

Quote

CCIP to AUTO conversion indeed does not require DESG but that is because in this case the target is the CCIP spot on the ground.

 

A simple test I've found to show conflicting information is by performing the CCIP to AUTO conversion:

 

-With CCIP reflected impact pipper, holding the pickle button designates a point on the ground and automatically switches to auto mode. (Correct)

-Prematurely releasing the pickle button switches back to CCIP mode whilst leaving the designation point. (Correct)

-With the existing designation point, manually switching to AUTO mode does not give attack symbology. (Incorrect)

 

Automatically switching to AUTO mode and manually switching to AUTO mode should give the same result which shows this whole "prepping the INS for Auto deliveries" is bogus. And just to reiterate from above posts: as long as a designation point exists, AUTO deliveries should be possible.

 

Outside of initial INS alignment and having a designation point, not a single other aircraft requires "prepping the INS for Auto deliveries", even aircraft developed by the same manufacturer (e.g the F/A-18).

ccip_to_auto.trk

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  • 3 weeks later...

I couldn't understand why suddenly pilot is required to switch to EHSD and press OSB1 to get AUTO attack guidance to designated target....

 

It just doesn't make sense that you can switch to AUTO mode by all means, but you do not get guidance or release cue to target without OSB1 in EHSD.

 

Instead it makes sense that all designation modes generate AUTO delivery without pressing OSB1, but if you want to designate a Waypoint as a target (convert it to system target) then you need to box DESG by pressing OSB1.

 

Even if selecting Target Point or Mark Point with EHSD OSB 12-13 or with "Next Waypoint" button in stick, it would make sense to generate TD (box DESG) automatically.

 

There is a another question I have not found answer.

 

In the NATOPS it is mentioned multiple times how a INS mode works only in HUD field of view. So you can only designate and move the Target Designation diamond when it is inside HUD. But it is movable all around you (outside HUD) and it controls all sensors (even TPOD when not in its control mode).

 

You can see the TD diamond moving in the EHSD and your TDC works by MFCD coordinates, so left moves TD diamond to left relative MFCD direction. So not by compass, or by polar coordinates (TDC left = rotate around aircraft position by going counter-clockwise).

 

First it made sense that one would need to open EHSD page and manually box DESG by pressing OSB 1 to make the EHSD as target designator and be usable with TDC.

 

So INS mode wouldn't move TD diamond on EHSD with TDC unless it is inside HUD, as INS/HUD is the designator in that moment.

 

If the MAP is wanted to be made designator and TDC control, pilot needs to press OSB 1 to box it, or switch DESG TGT.

This example when pilot want to make TD using map as starting point, and this is when TAMMAC digital terrain elevation map data is used to get TD about right altitude and position, after INS/HUD or DMT or TPOD is used to sweeten the position.

 

I still don't get the requirement for pilot jump between EHSD and STORE page example when delivering a maverick or bombs.

As Maverick display doesn't appear unless you have a store page open on left side (don't know can you have it at right side?), meaning you can not have a EHSD open same time on left as right side is with your DMT or TPOD video.

This means you can not see (re-)attack guidance same time.

 

The NATOPS mentions that after overfly of target when DMT gimbal is reached, the DMT video is switched automatically to EHSD compass rose with re-attack guidance. I have faint recollection that this happened earlier but got removed afterwards, and now DMT/TV turns to DMT/LST mode only. This would allow to have STORE page open on left, and right have DMT and EHSD.

 

The bombing is done with AUTO for re-attack. So requiring to use EHSD for boxing DESG doesn't make much sense. 

 

Same thing is with INS/HUD designation. Use TDC to move TD diamond inside HUD and it is stabilized to HUD until TDC DOWN is pressed. Only then is the TD diamond stabilized by using radar/baro altitude to HUD presented angle. If the target altitude is different than strongest echo altitude was under Harrier, then the TD diamond should drift as it is either inside ground or floating above ground. And pilot needs to use TDC to do small position corrections visually moving TD diamond inside HUD so it is again over the target, stop and wait a moment for mission computer calculate correction before sweetening target position further.

 

Now, the AUTO mode should be automatically be selected and bomb fall line calculated without requiring to open EHSD and boxing the DESG, as that happened in the moment pilot released TDC DOWN.

 

So INS/HUD should be usable without either MFCD for CCIP and AUTO delivery.

Same thing I think is for Maverick video when pressing UNCAGE, where left display should automatically show IRMV or LST video.

 

To me this makes more sense that MAP, INS/HUD, DMT and TPOD are all separate TDC controlled systems with different ways to generate Target Designation / System Designation.

 

And the requirement for EHSD OSB 1 for DESG/DESG-TGT/WPT doesn't make sense (to me) with current implementation.

The requirement to box it for AUTO just doesn't make sense.

Like what does a EHSD page have anything to do when they is already designated by other means?

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Is there any reason to discuss in any of these threads that has been moved to "Resolved" or marked as "[as Intended]"?

 

Seems that these are waste of time as we do not get responses or bugs moved back to open ones....

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  • 3 weeks later...

The upcoming (tomorrow?) patch mentions that "Point Plank" being fixed. Anyone know what they mean with it related to DESG boxing requirement otherwise?

 

- Added: AUTO Point Blank designation.

    To enable:

    A bomb type must be selected.

    Release mode must be AUTO.

    EHSD DESG must be unboxed.

    There cannot be a designated target.

    Use the VVM as a crosshair.

    The Aircraft must be in a dive at least 5 degrees pitch down

    Press the pickle.

    The spot under the VVM will be designated and the AUTO ASL and release cue will appear.

    The designated target will be saved as T0 and the EHSD will navigate towards it.

    Keep the pickle pressed until bomb is released.

    Target designation is saved.


Edited by Fri13

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  • 2 weeks later...
Quote

EHSD DESG must be unboxed.

There cannot be a designated target.

 

These are still being treated as completely different things when they are one and the same i.e you cannot have one without the other and vice versa

 

 

We've gone from:

Quote

In any case, no AUTO calculation is performed unless the INS is prepped by setting the EHSD in DESG mode.

 

to several INS modes that now work "without setting the EHSD in DESG mode" which completely contradicts the reason for implementing these changes in the first place.

 

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I was hoping to see that DESG mode made properly but it is not.

 

11 minutes ago, toilet2000 said:

Really hope this is going to get fixed. It makes no sense and several SMEs chimed in to confirm this isn't the correct behavior.

 

Where the SME's has confirmed that Razbam implementation is not correct?

As I don't know where those things even happens as Razbam hides so well the discussions and suppress the bug reports. 

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58 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

I was hoping to see that DESG mode made properly but it is not.

 

 

Where the SME's has confirmed that Razbam implementation is not correct?

As I don't know where those things even happens as Razbam hides so well the discussions and suppress the bug reports. 

To begin with, ChickenSim. Also, I know Santi has good sources on that and discussed the issue on Razbam's Discord channel. Those are two very good sources.

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12 minutes ago, toilet2000 said:

To begin with, ChickenSim.

 

I kno ChikenSim worked for the Razbam to make the systems and training missions or something. He is in my opinion the primary source here if something is wrong or correct. 

 

12 minutes ago, toilet2000 said:

Also, I know Santi has good sources on that

 

Don't know person... Or at least recall the name. 

 

12 minutes ago, toilet2000 said:

and discussed the issue on Razbam's Discord channel. Those are two very good sources.

 

Well, Razbam discord is to me more of a place where I don't want to go for anything as they are misleading by purpose so much there various people. 

So can't take seriously that there is said. 

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30 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

I kno ChikenSim worked for the Razbam to make the systems and training missions or something. He is in my opinion the primary source here if something is wrong or correct. 

 

 

Don't know person... Or at least recall the name. 

 

 

Well, Razbam discord is to me more of a place where I don't want to go for anything as they are misleading by purpose so much there various people. 

So can't take seriously that there is said. 

 

Santi is the same guy that helps Wags with some info on the Hornet for example. He is not with Razbam, same goes for Chicken. They're both completely independent from Razbam.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ok, Im bumping this thread. @myHelljumper

I was gonna make a report on the weird EHSD DESG behaviour when using TV Designation, but found this thread. Reading the A1-AV8BB-TAC-000 I find it very strange that there is no
mention of needing EHSD DESG and using waypoint increment button for AUTO delivery.  

ARBS/TV Designation
"The pilot can either fly the velocity vector over the target and press/release the TDC to designate, or action slew the TV FOV box over the target and release the TDC to command target acquisition. Again the preferred (easier) method is to fly the velocity vector to the target to designate. Once designated, no action slewing may be performed to sweeten the lock on point using 6 to 1 magnified video on the DDI. In the A/G master mode, attack symbology is presented on the HUD once target range is established. The MC uses the target LOS rates generated by the ARBS, aircraft altitude, and airspeed to compute target range." 2-44

harrierdesignation.jpg
 

4SNP6Rk


Reading how the INS designation works, INS point blank, ARBS/TV and ARBS/LST Designation, there is not a single mention about going into the EHSD and box anything or use the Waypoint Increment button. Also worth noting, when in ARBS/LST on lock on it automaticly switches into AUTO and presents a bomb fall line (pictured in 2-49)    
 

 

Here is also some quotes.

"Remember that in an auto delivery, the system will attempt to hit the designated target. When using the TV to designate the target, knowledge of where the TV will typically lock on certain target types is critical to mission planning and success." 1-204

"On Day and Night Attack aircraft the ARBS is the only height-above-target measurement device available that is actually tied to the target. In light of the accuracy of the ARBS system, the limitations of the radar altimeter, and the inaccuracies involved in ADC measurement, every weapons delivery should attempt use of a DMT designation. In some scenarios lack of valid DMT designation should become one of your tactical abort criteria." 2-4

WHY SHOULD WE GO INTO EHSD PAGE AND DESIGNATE SOMETHING THAT IS ALREADY DESIGNATED VIA DMT???

I do understand if EHSD DESG is needed for the TPOD as it is not well integrated into the Harrier. But it makes very little sense for TV Designation via DMT.

Please have a look at this!

Thanks!   









         

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It is not required to be boxed as it should be automatic.

 

The INS, TV and LST modes are broken.

The EHSD functionality and logic with those all three is wrong 

 

Example, you get a call from JTAC that target is painted ahead of you in city edge.

 

  1. You switch to AG master mode.
  2. You select a weapon of choice.
  3. You press SSS Aft to enable ARBS/LST (you have inputted proper laser code after landing/startup) on right MFCD.
  4. You slew ARBS/LST search pattern over the expected target area, and LST locks on laser spot.
  5. The LST is used sensor, but video becomes visible for target identification without contrast lock (video has large open crosshair).

Now, as it is LST mode then it is fully automatic. You fly with some jinking and generate angle changes by doing so. The ARBS calculates laser spot slant range (and so on position and altitude relative to you) and so on generate Target Designation automatically.

 

Now you need to decide what to do. 

 

If you want to use the target designation, you can just select AUTO or CCIP modes as TD is already automatically done and turn Master Arm On before attack.

 

OR you can pull SSS Aft to switch TV mode, where now TV crosshair is big and in 160 ms time crosshair closes and small box jumps to closest high contrast detail, and sweetening can be required. This so laser can be turned off from moving target or something (you already have TD).

OR you can turn away and when DMT gimbal limit is reached then LST mode is disabled and INS mode is automatically selected, the EHSD compass rose appears on right MFCD and shows TD diamond position.

Once you turn back toward Target Designation the INS mode is still active. The LST mode doesn't get activated unless you switch to it by pressing SSS Aft (that would make LST center last used scan pattern on TD).

The TV video is visible, but as you are in INS mode there is no contrast lock. The TV video points at the TD showing it direction. If TV lock is wanted to be done, you need to SSS Aft to activate TV mode that does automatic contrast detection on TD direction and locking to strongest one, regardless what ever is between DMT and TD (be it a mountain, trees etc).

 

When INS mode is active the TDC can not move TD unless the TD diamond is visible inside HUD.

All TV and LST modes are disabled so that accidental redesignation doesn't happen. 

Pilot is all the time guided toward the designation for re-attack by showing compass rose in right MFCD in place of LST/TV and in HUD with arrow in FPM and so on.

 

In any given point pilot isn't required to open EHSD and box a DESG by pressing proper OSB to get:

  • Guidance on target
  • AUTO delivery option
  • Weapons released
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