HMCS question

[Dropbear]

Honestly the pilot workload with the A10II seems huge...the HOTAS setup seems so janky to me .. having to switch between steerpoints and markpoints, yadda yadda.. huge kudos to the guys that do this for real - but the HMI to me, is just janky. You can really see the "evolution" of systems from basic to where it is a now, and piling features on top of features instead of just starting it again and doing it properly.

 

As someone with a keen interest in human machine interfaces (HMI) - the A10 seems a real exercise in how not to do it.

 

[Ziptie]

15 minutes ago, Dropbear said:

Honestly the pilot workload with the A10II seems huge...the HOTAS setup seems so janky to me .. having to switch between steerpoints and markpoints, yadda yadda.. huge kudos to the guys that do this for real - but the HMI to me, is just janky. You can really see the "evolution" of systems from basic to where it is a now, and piling features on top of features instead of just starting it again and doing it properly.

 

As someone with a keen interest in human machine interfaces (HMI) - the A10 seems a real exercise in how not to do it.

 

 

I find it exceptionally easy and fluid - but I've been doing it for a long time now, could be why.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

[Foka]

HUge difference is... You guessed it - HMI - do you use a Warthog HOTAS? I can only imagine how hard it is to fly an A-10C with any other joystick or HOTAS. With TM Warthog it's just walk in a park....

[Ziptie]

1 minute ago, Foka said:

HUge difference is... You guessed it - HMI - do you use a Warthog HOTAS? I can only imagine how hard it is to fly an A-10C with any other joystick or HOTAS. With TM Warthog it's just walk in a park....

 

 

Exactly!

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

[Bunny Clark]

1 hour ago, Dropbear said:

As someone with a keen interest in human machine interfaces (HMI) - the A10 seems a real exercise in how not to do it.

 

Careful - say you don't care for the A-10 HOTAS too loudly around here, or on Hoggit, and you'll get burned as a heretic 

 

I agree with you. I think there are too many required button presses for most common attack flows, and too many of them are long presses. Long press to set SPI, long press to change SOI, long press to slave to SPI. The F-16 and Hornet are much simpler, and faster to use, while still being extremely effective. 

 

I think some of it has to do with the fact that the A-10C was the first high fidelity jet with a HOTAS in DCS so a lot of people started with it, and then it becomes the standard by which everything else is judged. I was flying Falcon 4.0 long before I sat in a virtual A-10, so the Viper's HOTAS is my standard by which I judge everything. 

[Ziptie]

30 minutes ago, Bunny Clark said:

Careful - say you don't care for the A-10 HOTAS too loudly around here, or on Hoggit, and you'll get burned as a heretic 

 

I agree with you. I think there are too many required button presses for most common attack flows, and too many of them are long presses. Long press to set SPI, long press to change SOI, long press to slave to SPI. The F-16 and Hornet are much simpler, and faster to use, while still being extremely effective. 

 

I think some of it has to do with the fact that the A-10C was the first high fidelity jet with a HOTAS in DCS so a lot of people started with it, and then it becomes the standard by which everything else is judged. I was flying Falcon 4.0 long before I sat in a virtual A-10, so the Viper's HOTAS is my standard by which I judge everything. 

 

 

Fair enough.  That being said, if you need to employ a weapon quickly in the A10 - you can do that.  That being said, the A10 is best utilized in a "pre planned" employment style - but she can still provide a quick, " holy $%@# " attack.

 

In my case at least, you are correct - it was what I learned when first getting into DCS and to boot I was using a cheap Thrustmaster TFlight4 PS/PC HOTAS - which made it tricky as there were very limited buttons available.  If I recall correctly, I had 4 or 5 modifiers - using combinations for TMS, DMS and CMS - etc etc etc.  I think it was actually more of a learning curve once I got the TMWH - muscle memory was just getting developed.

 

All that being said, I do think that it has made learning other aircraft easier, in regards to the HOTAS operation.

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

[Taz1004]

I just wish I can switch Coolie right/left short and long.  Not very intuitive that the Coolie up and down is SOI for HUD and HMCS but it's long command for SOI left and right MFD.  I am used to it now but I still wish I can change it so changing SOI is quicker.  I can just press the OSB's to change pages.  And changing SOI is much more time critical function during engagement than changing MFD pages.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Taz1004

[Ziptie]

8 minutes ago, Taz1004 said:

I just wish I can switch Coolie right/left short and long.  Not very intuitive that the Coolie up and down is SOI for HUD and HMCS but it's long command for SOI left and right MFD.  I am used to it now but I still wish I can change it so changing SOI is quicker.  I can just press the OSB's to change pages.  And changing SOI is much more time critical function during engagement than changing MFD pages.

 

 

The extra half second to make one of the MFD's SOI can get you into trouble for sure - however you really should be having the proper sensors displayed on the MFDs while you're in the AO anyways.  Then you can use the master mode and appropriate DMS commands with HUD SOI (if needed to select proper weapon).  I always have the MAV selected if I am somewhat unsure of threat, that way a quick CHFS with HUD SOI calls up the MAV sensor display and you can quickly employ.

 

As another said above, it has a unique flow for sure.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

[LeCuvier]

I find the use of the Coolie Sitch Left/Right long unergonomic (for my left hand anyway) and I often end up with the wrong display because my "long" was not long enough, and then I lose time getting back to the right display. But there is a solution that works well for me:

The TDC Depress and Mic Switch Depress are not used in the HOTAS commands. Assuming you have the TM WH throttle:

If you bind the two commands to "Left MFCD OSB 12" resp. "Right MFCD OSB 15" you can switch SOI between TDC and MAV with short depresses.

[Ziptie]

Yeah, I am also lucky that I have 3 Cougar MFD's at my disposal - most of the time I just press the OSB twice if I want one of the MFD's SOI (if it isn't already).

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

[Dropbear]

19 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

I agree with you. I think there are too many required button presses for most common attack flows, and too many of them are long presses. Long press to set SPI, long press to change SOI, long press to slave to SPI. The F-16 and Hornet are much simpler, and faster to use, while still being extremely effective. 

 

If you're only going to attack one unit it's probably not too bad, but the inability to define multiple SPIs up front and execute attack easily by quickly switching between them is where the HMI falls down. Switching in and out of multiple SOIs is terrible, error prone and just takes too long, even for people that know the flow. 

 

Oh well, if that what the true systems are, then good luck to the pilots that make it work.

[Foka]

1 hour ago, Dropbear said:

 

but the inability to define multiple SPIs up front and execute attack easily by quickly switching between them is where the HMI falls down

 

You can set Markpoints and switch SPI between them. Its logic will be exactly like "multiple SPIs", but IMO more intuitive. With Markpoints there is no problem in for example ripple 6 Mavs at 6 (non moving) targets on one flyby.

[Taz1004]

42 minutes ago, Foka said:

 

You can set Markpoints and switch SPI between them. Its logic will be exactly like "multiple SPIs", but IMO more intuitive. With Markpoints there is no problem in for example ripple 6 Mavs at 6 (non moving) targets on one flyby.

 

That only works with Mavs or completely stationary targets.  And Mavs are standoff weapon.  Not really time critical.  And I donno about you but I have hard time making 65D's locking onto exact target I want when targets are close together.

We're talking about that extra second for example while closing in target with APKWS to knockout a Strela and a Shilka, and then switch to CBU for rest of the targets in one run.  You can't use markpoints in this case because after you knockout Strela, others would scatter.

 

By the way, thanks @LeCuvier, while not perfect, it's nice workaround.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Taz1004

[LeCuvier]

7 hours ago, Taz1004 said:

 

... I have hard time making 65D's locking onto exact target I want when targets are close together...

 

Yes that's really annoying. And often it jumps to something that's not a target at all. I have to watch the left MFCD when I push TMS Fwd to lock the target, and if the display moves I know I've locked the wrong thing. And that costs time because you need to get closer to target so the MAV recognizes the desired target.

[Foka]

9 hours ago, Taz1004 said:

And I donno about you but I have hard time making 65D's locking onto exact target I want when targets are close together.

 

 

We're talking about that extra second for example while closing in target with APKWS to knockout a Strela and a Shilka, and then switch to CBU for rest of the targets in one run.  You can't use markpoints in this case because after you knockout Strela, others would scatter.

 

This is how Mavs work, it's not TGP hi-res camera, just IIR sensor, there is no work around for that and as far as I know it works like this in real world.

I don't really understand what would like to achive with "multiple SPIs", what you can't with markpoints.

Set AAP Steer point selector to Mark, set markpoints on every target you wish (your "multiple SPIs"), TMS aft long for "SPI to STPT", HUD SOI and DMS aft/fwd will switch you between marpoi9nts makeing them SPI (alternatively you can switch between them with UFC STEER rocker).  I can't see how it differs from your "multiple SPIs".

 

If you had your "multiple SPI" they also would be useless, when targets start moving.

[Taz1004]

7 minutes ago, Foka said:

This is how Mavs work, it's not TGP hi-res camera, just IIR sensor, there is no work around for that and as far as I know it works like this in real world.

I don't really understand what would like to achive with "multiple SPIs", what you can't with markpoints.

Set AAP Steer point selector to Mark, set markpoints on every target you wish (your "multiple SPIs"), TMS aft long for "SPI to STPT", HUD SOI and DMS aft/fwd will switch you between marpoi9nts makeing them SPI (alternatively you can switch between them with UFC STEER rocker).  I can't see how it differs from your "multiple SPIs".

 

If you had your "multiple SPI" they also would be useless, when targets start moving.

 

Reading your prior post, looks like you were responding to different comment.  My bad.

[gryper]

On 11/10/2020 at 9:51 AM, BuzzU said:

In case you don't know. When they changed the keystroke of coolie down for HMCS as SOI. We lost what that keystroke used to be. Which was swap MFD's. So, if you're looking for how to swap MFD's, we lost it. It seems the real plane doesn't have that option.

Thanks. Been looking for this answer all morning. Wondering why I could not make the HMCS the SOI.