A humble opinion how should DSC WWII scene develop in future years

[DD_Fenrir]

 

I remember having heard there's a flying replica Dora somewhere, but may well be wrong due to mixing it up with some flying As that certainly do exist.

 

https://flyingheritage.org/Explore/The-Collection/Germany/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190-D-13-(Dora).aspx

 

From my understanding it was restored to airworthy and ground ran a few times, but as the article says, being the only example of the type, they won't fly it (I'd imagine the insurance alone could be prohibitive in that regard).

[DD_Fenrir]

 

You are right mate, I didn’t remember that the Dora has no flying example either. I hope that with the data we have and virtual wind tunnel is enough to create a Tempest.

 

You don't get FM data from having access to the flyable versions - that comes from period wind tunnel test (which there was apparently enough to model the K-4 and D-9 to a level that Yo-Yo deemed satisfactory) or - as with the P-47 - CFD modelling.

 

What the flyables give you - or more accurately what the pilots of these do - is the nuances, idiosyncrasies and peculiarities of an individual airframe's flight characteristics that escape the wind tunnel or CFD modellings resolution. There are potential micro-transactions of aerodynamic interaction that slip under the radar in these tests but which cumulatively can result in distinct and unique feedback to the pilot that no amount of data can really elaborate; the flavour of the aeroplane if you will.

 

Erich Brunotte was a fabulous resource in this regard, but ultimately something of an exceptional case - you'd be hard pressed to find another living veteran with such sagacity, and spectacular powers of clarity and recall. Alas, we are losing more and more of them every month, and with the passing of each, the chance of discovering a Typhoon or Tempest veteran with such a lucid and comprehensive ability to not only remember the necessary data but to be able to impart that knowledge in useful manner, diminishes further.

 

I do believe we will have to wait for flyable restorations of these types before we see DCS versions thereof, as despite combing through my not inconsiderable library, there just isn't cohesive or detailed enough anecdotal evidence to really describe the flight characteristics of these aircraft to the degree demanded of by ED.

 

 

[tapi]

Thanks very much Fenrir for the valuable insight!

Sadly, I guess, the time has gone too far from the WWII days, so we cannot count with the help of Tempest veterans anymore.

Looks like restored flyable Tempest is the necessity.

 

Anyway, do you know if there are some period wind tunnel tests for Tempest? It would be strange if we have late war Luftwaffe fighter tests but not the ones from the winner (i.e. allied) side... One would expect that archives on the British isles should be in a much better state of completeness than those in the Third Reich...

[Krupi]

 

You don't get FM data from having access to the flyable versions - that comes from period wind tunnel test (which there was apparently enough to model the K-4 and D-9 to a level that Yo-Yo deemed satisfactory) or - as with the P-47 - CFD modelling.

 

What the flyables give you - or more accurately what the pilots of these do - is the nuances, idiosyncrasies and peculiarities of an individual airframe's flight characteristics that escape the wind tunnel or CFD modellings resolution. There are potential micro-transactions of aerodynamic interaction that slip under the radar in these tests but which cumulatively can result in distinct and unique feedback to the pilot that no amount of data can really elaborate; the flavour of the aeroplane if you will.

 

Erich Brunotte was a fabulous resource in this regard, but ultimately something of an exceptional case - you'd be hard pressed to find another living veteran with such sagacity, and spectacular powers of clarity and recall. Alas, we are losing more and more of them every month, and with the passing of each, the chance of discovering a Typhoon or Tempest veteran with such a lucid and comprehensive ability to not only remember the necessary data but to be able to impart that knowledge in useful manner, diminishes further.

 

I do believe we will have to wait for flyable restorations of these types before we see DCS versions thereof, as despite combing through my not inconsiderable library, there just isn't cohesive or detailed enough anecdotal evidence to really describe the flight characteristics of these aircraft to the degree demanded of by ED.

 

 

How far does one go?

 

We wait for a flyable aircraft and then what... realistically no WWII aircraft flown today is flown at anywhere near the power that they were originally intended, add to that pilots pushing them beyond that operationally, and these quirks you mention only become more pronounced or even occur at higher speeds, for example flutter on the Typhoon.

 

Have you read Roland Beamont's book on the Typhoon/Tempest? From my recollection he goes quite in depth into the flight characteristics.

[Al-Azraq]

Thanks very much Fenrir for the valuable insight!

Sadly, I guess, the time has gone too far from the WWII days, so we cannot count with the help of Tempest veterans anymore.

Looks like restored flyable Tempest is the necessity.

 

Anyway, do you know if there are some period wind tunnel tests for Tempest? It would be strange if we have late war Luftwaffe fighter tests but not the ones from the winner (i.e. allied) side... One would expect that archives on the British isles should be in a much better state of completeness than those in the Third Reich...

 

I think that at some point, we will just have to settle with what wind tunnel tests, virtual tunnel tests, and written memories will give us in order to represent an old warbird in a simulation. I think that with this data it should be plenty to have a trustful simulated version of these great planes, and that when using them in combat you will exploit their real advantages and avoid the disadvantages in the same way as in reality. Of course you may not have all those small details, but at least you will get a picture of how that plane behave in battle.

[tapi]

Agree. IMHO it is better to have the warbird with 95% fidelity than do not have it at all because it is not possible to make it with 100% fidelity...

[msalama]

https://flyingheritage.org/Explore/T...13-(Dora).aspx

 

That's the one I was thinking about, thanks. And the bird's not even a replica it seems, but a restored original... WOW!

 

[Silver_Dragon]

Fw-190F-8/G-8 continue planned, as part of Fw-190A-8, as talked in discord by Bignewy

https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/english/dcs-world-war-ii/dcs-fw-190-a-8-anton/258631-fw190-f8-plans

 

About other aircrafts, Nick Grey has talked about them:

[msalama]

continue planned

 

Aren't them all? But thanks anyway.

[_Spad_]

This is a great idea. 4 aircraft and a map that will now cover most of the western front. Balancing the plane set is probably the biggest thing for me.

 

Hopefully ED takes note.

[rayrayblues]

Where is the He-111 in all of this? In addition to bombs on the Ju-88, an He-111 is a must have for any scenario in western Europe.

Fully flyable of course would be better, but for the short term, at least an AI version + Ju-87's must be in the mix.

There are currently no German bombers in the game. There were several that operated during this period/theatre, the 111 being the most prominent,

followed by the Ju-87 ~variants Stuka dive bombers.

 

Maybe then we can move on to populate the upcoming Marianna's Islands map with allied and Japanese assets, but I agree that we must finish Europe first.

 

 

 

[Silver_Dragon]

Nick Grey (ED and Fighter Collection CEO), has plans to build Battle of Britain planes, surely Ju-87 and He111 will coming.

Quote

- Battle of Britain planned in a future

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Silver_Dragon

[rkk01]

I’d go earlier, and south

 

I’ve posted on here before - MAW provided a refreshingly different plane set and location setting...

 

North Africa, Malta, Sicily and Southern Italy offers some real differences to the norm - how is N Germany 1945 any different to France 1944...???

A better balanced mix of aircraft, with opportunity for to interesting new (different a/c, not just earlier variants)

 

Spitfire Vb, Huricane II, Beaufighter, P-40

 

Bf-109 F and early G, early FW-190, Me-110, Ju-87 and 88, (as well as He and Do bombers)

 

Would also be a good venue for the P-38

 

Best of all - some excellent desert and arid terrain camo skins

[Krupi]

I would love to see Malta and Italy. 

[rkk01]

N Africa - Malta- Italy might be a good one for Ugra after Cyprus is added to the Syria map...

 

Must be some easily shareable assets

 

ETA - would also have scope for a wide range of ops...

- air defence, CAP, intercept

- airfield denial, strike, strategic bombing

- maritime patrol / strike - for both sides... Allied supplies to Malta, Axis supplies to N Africa 

- CAS, tactical support, amphib ops

 

Tunis to Benghazi, north to Sicily and Italy... massive potential for air, sea and land ops

 

Anyone unfamiliar should search for Op Pedestal, or look out a copy of “Destroyer Captain” by Roger Hill and “First Light” by Geoffrey Wellum

Edited January 21, 2021 by rkk01

[Lucidus]

I vote for Bf 109 G-6. I didn't bought Bf109 because K4 was too new model. Instead bought Spit+Channel. I did bough Bf 109 G-6  Collector plane to IL Great Battles although.

[WinterH]

My take on what I'd like from DCS in terms of WW II:

I'm mostly fine with late war birds the way it is, would love to get Fw-190F and G models too though. What I'd really like to see Battle of Britain birds: Emils, Hurricanes, Spitfire I&IIs. 109G-6 though? Honestly, it is the ugly ducking and sluggish mule of the 109 family. I'm a lifelong 109 lover, I'd probably buy just about any 109 variant except that thing.

 

That said, I'd enjoy mid war aircraft a lot too.

[DD_Fenrir]

25 minutes ago, WinterH said:

My take on what I'd like from DCS in terms of WW II:

I'm mostly fine with late war birds the way it is, would love to get Fw-190F and G models too though. What I'd really like to see Battle of Britain birds: Emils, Hurricanes, Spitfire I&IIs. 109G-6 though? Honestly, it is the ugly ducking and sluggish mule of the 109 family. I'm a lifelong 109 lover, I'd probably buy just about any 109 variant except that thing.

 

That said, I'd enjoy mid war aircraft a lot too.

 

I don't disagree with the majority of what you say, however, regards the 109G, I don't wish to malign your opinion of it - that is your right and you're welcome to it - but you do understand how important a variant it is regards the current planeset and WW2 maps we have? It would help cement our current collection into a more cohesive 1944-45 timeframe as the definitive 109 variant for early-mid/late 1944. 

 

Sure, a 109F with a Spitfire Mk V would be a very interesting match-up, and a good one for the channel Map to boot but we are, I suspect, years away from that particular match-up being available in DCS. Similarly the Battle of Britain. The 109G could be produced in relatively faster timeframe as it shares much common data with the Kurfurst.

 

[WinterH]

1 minute ago, DD_Fenrir said:

I don't wish to malign your opinion of it - that is your right and you're welcome to it - but you do understand how important a variant it is regards the current planeset and WW2 maps we have?

I do know it is by far the most produced variant, and that it was by far more common than Kurfüst, and would be a better match for Sptifire IX for example. My opinion is already formed knowing these, doesn't change a thing for me personally. Do note, I specifically say G-6. I'd love a G-2, even though there is nothing matching its time frame/performance right now. I'd be ok with even G-6/AS, G-10, or G-14 to a lesser degree. G-6 is a certain no buy for me. It is the only variant I don't have in that other WW2 sim too. Now my reason is specific, and I'm willing to get older versions. But I think average module buyers will also probably be not overly inclined towards it, as it would be a worse Kurfüst that doesn't add much, so not sure if any potential developer will see it as having any potential for return of investment.

[Blackbird12]

Don't forget there is a lot of differences between early and late G6, the early version didn't performed very well, but later version with MW50 became a very good aircraft.

From what I remember it's slower than a K4 but more manoeuvrable and it had slightly worse climb 

[tapi]

Well, from the point of modules profitability it would be certainly more wise from ED to create G6 first and then after few years continue with K4 and not vice versa. The first approach would be more natural and G6 owners would have more reasons to buy K4.

But I hope that even with the current state with K4 there are enough WWII aficionados who understand G6 importance for the current planest and buy it if it is available.

[DD_Fenrir]

3 hours ago, tapi said:

But I hope that even with the current state with K4 there are enough WWII aficionados who understand G6 importance for the current planest and buy it if it is available.

 

I'll buy it - and I do not regard myself as a 109 driver.

 

Those of us who have a vested interest in wanting to see and partake in historically authentic scenarios will invest because we (a) welcome the chance to own and fly a carefully crafted module and see how it compares to its' s DCS contemporaries and real life accounts, (b) have the opportunity to recreate historically faithful scenarios or even actual missions using as many of the prototypically correct units as is possible and finally (b) to support ED by reimbursing them for their work and to prompt them to continue on their efforts in creating WW2 era modules and content 

[Mogster]

On 1/20/2021 at 8:58 PM, Silver_Dragon said:

Nick Grey (ED and Fighter Collection CEO), has plans to build Battle of Britain planes, surely Ju-87 and He111 will coming.

 

 

The Battle of Britain does have some advantages. Unlike most historical scenarios the plane set for convincing historically based campaigns is really very small.

 

For starters;

 

Spitfire Mk 1

Hurricane Mk1

Me109 E

Me110 (AI)

Ju87 (AI)

He111 (AI)

 

You can add some others as AI but really they’re gravy. We already have an AI Ju88, that could be added. We already have a small but suitable map, we already have a Merlin Spitfire albeit a much later model, same goes for the 109E. Not starting from scratch with the early Spit and 109 would make development much faster I’d imagine.
 

Additionally the Me109E would re-create another important historical match up with the fantastic I-16 we already have, the Ju87, He111 and Me110 would populate early eastern front scenarios nicely.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Mogster

[rayrayblues]

I am not too keen on a lot of specific history, so would like to know where the Bf-109 F4 fits in. I believe it was mid war.

Does it fit in with the above scenario/discussions? I used to fly it a lot in another "cough, cough" sim/game.

[tapi]

Unfortunately, Bf 109 F does not fit to the actual DSC WWII planeset. It's  typical oponent with similar performance is Spitfire Mk. V.

So you are right, it belongs to the mid war scenarios (1942/43).

Edited February 14, 2021 by tapi