[BORESIGHT FIRST] Can't get Mav seeker to Align with TPOD

[Frederf]

The MBC can only correlate for handoff if the first mechanical alignment step is good enough to complete the second image processing comparison step. The MBC 1st stage correlation relies upon the boresight calibration data by the pilot procedure. The MBC doesn't really slew the Maverick to the TGP, instead it tells the Maverick to slew to where the TGP should be looking provided the calibration data is correct.

 

Nothing is magically aligned in the airplane. TGP, HUD symbols, HMCS symbols, radar, missiles, bomb racks, everything has to be calibrated by human activity. Everything has data memory for fixes for misalignment. When you lock up a target with the radar and TGP points in the right direction that is not an accident. When AIM-9 is locked but wing is flexing and twisting the HUD circle symbol might not be 100% accurate (MCC has a programmed correction assumption to semi compensate).

[Donglr]

I am really struggling with the MAVs while trying this boresighting stuff tonight. Although I eventually got it to work but the results seem inconsistent. Sometimes it is bang on, sometimes the alignment is off and this is although another missile from THE SAME rail was ok. But that is not all. The MAV in general I find inconsistent in its behavior. I uploaded a track file, maybe someone can have a look. I had the following two issues:

1. Cannot always slew the MAV manually

In PRE mode the MAV always tries to follow the TGP, esp when you TMS up in the TGP it tries to handover coordinates to the MAV. If alignment is not good you have to with to the WPN page and adjust manually before trying to lock (I used MAN mode). At 424 seconds into the replay you can see me how I had to slew the MAV a bit to get it on target. No problem. But at 464-~470s I try the same thing with a different target, but this time I am unable to slew the MAV. You can only see the image shake a bit due to my failed slew attempts. Why can I not slew the MAV at this point?

 

2. cannot change targeting mode to BORE or VIS

Between 589-615 seconds you can see various attempts to change the targeting mode. I tried the ENABLE button while WPN page or HUD are SOI, you can also see me directly pushing the PRE button on the WPN page. But I never manage to get out of PRE mode. Why is that? I don't really remember if I had a target locked at the time. Do I maybe have to TMS down to undesignate before I can change mode?

MavBoresight.trk

[Frederf]

1. Not being able to SOI WPN and slew is something DCS needs to change. SOI WPN and slew and the missile should move in any mode. Specifically boresighting is a lot more difficult than it should be because all sorts of things are "locked down". When TGP is set to "MAN" it should never attempt to handoff. Handoff should only happen with TGP is in "AUTO" and pilot releases TMS forward. Calibrating should be possible in either PRE or VIS and probably in MAN instead of AUTO so it doesn't try to handoff before it's calibrated. Boresighting isn't even a TGP-only thing. You can boresight Maverick station to HUD box or FCR or anything that provides a SPI. It's whatever sensor is priority/tracking at the time. BSGT is saying "hey, right now the missile is actually pointed at SPI". You should be able to aim TGP and track missile in any order.

 

I've also found that if you deliberately boresight the missile wrong by tracking TGP onto one target and missile onto another 100s of meters away the calibration comes out perfect instead of skewed. Oops. I wouldn't be surprised if it's possible to do the opposite either.

 

2. I don't know if submode cycling is supposed to be inhibited if missile is tracking (you could see the logic if it was). It is inhibited in DCS in any EO mode. EO submode cycling should happen the same regardless of SOI. DCS limits cycling to WPN SOI by mistake.

[deyv]

Just a small tip from my side... I had massive problem not only with TGP, handoffing mavericks but also with HUD...nothing was shown (static square of TGP indicator, no CCRP bar placed correctly towards indicated target etc), nothing was really working correctly... so under steam files I made integrity check of files and... everything started to work as should... so maybe will help some of you guys

[borchi]

Hi,

 

i tried it and also got an bad alligement of the 65D usind PRE mode and the TGP. Manualy adjusting the alligment of the seeker on the WPN page works.

[Gerrard]

Hi,

 

i tried it and also got an bad alligement of the 65D usind PRE mode and the TGP. Manualy adjusting the alligment of the seeker on the WPN page works.

 

Same here.. 65D's always seem to be a little off from TGP.

 

AGM65H's work fine though and slew to TGP perfectly. Shame they are so dependent on weather conditions.

[borchi]

Ok... i will try the 65H...

[ctguy1955]

I am glad I found this page and will watch Wags video..... so frustrating that I cant fire any mav, or if I do it one time, I cant repeat it.

[Bog9y]

A few questions:

 

1) For the boresighting procedure on the ground, the Tpod handover mode needs to be in AUTO?

 

2) Do you TMS up the Tpod to go into POINT track when you have chosen a boresighting object?

 

3) Does it actually matter in DCS if the object has a good contrast to it's background for boresighting?

 

4) Once I TMS up the T-pod, the handover process begins, I hardly ever get a C above the station number, usually it's S during slewing and then T when I have TMSed UP the Tpod.  Is this a bug or user error?

 

5) Sometimes the MAV seeker head does not move whatsoever and I have to mess around with TMS down and up to get it to release for boresighting, bug or user error?

 

6) During an attack, I select a target with the Tpod, TMS up. Handover process begins. Switch SOI to WPN. Now, do I still need to TMS up or can I just fire away if the WPN FOW brackets are collapsed?

 

 

[Sr.]

5 hours ago, Bbow said:

A few questions:

 

1) For the boresighting procedure on the ground, the Tpod handover mode needs to be in AUTO?

 

2) Do you TMS up the Tpod to go into POINT track when you have chosen a boresighting object?

 

3) Does it actually matter in DCS if the object has a good contrast to it's background for boresighting?

 

4) Once I TMS up the T-pod, the handover process begins, I hardly ever get a C above the station number, usually it's S during slewing and then T when I have TMSed UP the Tpod.  Is this a bug or user error?

 

5) Sometimes the MAV seeker head does not move whatsoever and I have to mess around with TMS down and up to get it to release for boresighting, bug or user error?

 

6) During an attack, I select a target with the Tpod, TMS up. Handover process begins. Switch SOI to WPN. Now, do I still need to TMS up or can I just fire away if the WPN FOW brackets are collapsed?

 

 

 

I get similar result usually depending on range to target. Mostly random though. 

For instance, have 3x65D per station and the first handoff/lock usually go as expected from say station 1

Then for balance I will swap over to station 2 to fire the next, handoff/lock fire as expected. 

It's usually after I switch BACK to station one to start the rotation over is when the missile stops auto locking after handoff, and I have to SOI that MFD and TMS up.

 

 

Seems like sometimes I can prevent this by switching back to TGP (SOI) then TMS down before slewing to next target, TMS up, handoff.

I'm thinking a bug in the order of operations somewhere.

 

 

Doing as you mention in 6. I have often hit the same target twice.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Sr.

[Frederf]

6 hours ago, Bbow said:

A few questions:

 

1) For the boresighting procedure on the ground, the Tpod handover mode needs to be in AUTO?

 

2) Do you TMS up the Tpod to go into POINT track when you have chosen a boresighting object?

 

3) Does it actually matter in DCS if the object has a good contrast to it's background for boresighting?

 

4) Once I TMS up the T-pod, the handover process begins, I hardly ever get a C above the station number, usually it's S during slewing and then T when I have TMSed UP the Tpod.  Is this a bug or user error?

 

5) Sometimes the MAV seeker head does not move whatsoever and I have to mess around with TMS down and up to get it to release for boresighting, bug or user error?

 

6) During an attack, I select a target with the Tpod, TMS up. Handover process begins. Switch SOI to WPN. Now, do I still need to TMS up or can I just fire away if the WPN FOW brackets are collapsed?

1. No, in fact you don't want to be in AUTO. You don't want to trigger an actual handoff while doing the calibration. In the real airplane the TGP should attempt a handoff in AUTO and not attempt a handoff in MAN.

2. In general yes. That's a good way to have the TGP LOS toward the same spot as a tracking missile.

3. TGP or missile seeker can have insufficient conditions for tracking like day/night lighting.

4. Can be either. The test is whether the missile can manually track under identical conditions without handoff.

5. Can be either but in general the missile should be slewable manually.

6. When using automatic handoff there is no need for WPN to be SOI at all. TGP point, wait, fire.

 

[Jerec]

Is there a chance to have the TGP HUD indicator without having creating a steerpoint in the ME previously? 

 

[Donglr]

On 12/2/2020 at 1:45 PM, Bbow said:

A few questions:

 

1) For the boresighting procedure on the ground, the Tpod handover mode needs to be in AUTO?

 

2) Do you TMS up the Tpod to go into POINT track when you have chosen a boresighting object?

 

3) Does it actually matter in DCS if the object has a good contrast to it's background for boresighting?

 

4) Once I TMS up the T-pod, the handover process begins, I hardly ever get a C above the station number, usually it's S during slewing and then T when I have TMSed UP the Tpod.  Is this a bug or user error?

 

5) Sometimes the MAV seeker head does not move whatsoever and I have to mess around with TMS down and up to get it to release for boresighting, bug or user error?

 

6) During an attack, I select a target with the Tpod, TMS up. Handover process begins. Switch SOI to WPN. Now, do I still need to TMS up or can I just fire away if the WPN FOW brackets are collapsed?

 

 

 1) no. Boresighting basically means "point at the same thing". There does not need to be a handover. Although I do not really understand what "handover" actually means other than "Jo, Mav, look over there and try to lock whatever you see and tell me if you found something", tbh

 

2/3) Yes, I TMS and yes, you need some contrast. Without contrast you cannot lock the Mav seeker to anything. So my goal is to find something that the Mav as well as the TGP can lock onto so I get collapsed cross with the Mav as well as a POINT track in the TGP

 

4)dunno, I honestly pay zero attention to all this lettering, because in my in-combat experience all this Mav busieness works really unreliably, thanks to the SPI bug and range restrictions. Also I play in stone-age VR so I cannot read the letters anyway. For me a much more useful way of telling if I am good to fire is checking if the cross is collapsed.

 

5) I experience the same thing, especially when I try to lock a Mav from my second station onto my boresighting target after I finished the first station. I hope it is a bug. What usually helps is moving the TGP off the target, move it back on and TMS up again. Then I can slew the Mav again

 

6) In MAN mode you need to switch SOI to WPN and TMS up. In AUTO mode you do need not to. But again, in my experience I quite often need to switch to WPN page and need to TMS up manually, because the initial lock did not work and I ended up with the "no cross whatsoever"-screen. Sometimes you are too far away and it cannot lock, sometimes TGP and MAV are not aligned well enough so the MAV does not find anything to lock onto and sometime thanks to the SPI bug target box, TGP and MAV just have nothing to do with each other and you are just a useless multi-million $ pile of aluminum in the sky.

[Donglr]

2 hours ago, Jerec said:

Is there a chance to have the TGP HUD indicator without having creating a steerpoint in the ME previously? 

 

 

In my experience there is no consistent way and if it works it is a bit tedious. First, I think there is no such thing as a TGP HUD indicator, there is only a targeting box, i.e. your target, which does not necessarily correspond to what your TGP is looking at.Also the ability to slew the target designator box or TGP heavily depends on what weapon you have selected and what mode you are in. It's really not like the A10 in that regard where there is always a SPI which you can move around with the TGP, no matter mode/weapon.

 

I sometimes manage to create a situation where I have the target box on the HUD and am able to slew it with my TGP without creating a waypoint first. I go into CCRP mode which will automatically slew the TGP to the currently selected steerpoint. That is not what I want so I put the TGP into SP mode. When it is facing forward I take it out of SP mode (cannot quite remember if it is done by unchecking SP again or putting it into area track by TMS right). I then SOMETIMES end up with a designator box on by HUD which I then can slew with the TGP. However, I just tried this  twice and it worked once, so I am not entirely sure what was happening there.

 

Long story shirt, thr F16 feels clunky in that regard, esp knowing the A10. The most reliable method I know is using a MAV in VIS mode, then you make HUD SOI, slew it till your heart's content and the TGP will follow. But that is with a MAV only.

[Shadak]

2 hours ago, Jerec said:

Is there a chance to have the TGP HUD indicator without having creating a steerpoint in the ME previously? 

 

 

It should work by pressing SP (snowplow) , but for me it doesnt show the HUD pointer like 80%. Its almost as reliable as MAV Auto hand off. Some times it works when you press it couple of times (enter/exit SP) but I just gave up.

 

For now in F16 I just use the MAV head to look for targets in VIS or Boresight mode. Yes you can zoom in so much but I got used to it and it works. In TGP some times it doesnt align or hand off at all, some times you need to be like 3 miles from the target, which is useless for AA targets by that time they've already sent a missile your way.

[Jerec]

With the Maverick it works! But I thought of doing it with GBUs without having created a steerpoint previously. 

Have tried everything, but no success. Any ideas? Thanks!!

[Donglr]

3 hours ago, Jerec said:

With the Maverick it works! But I thought of doing it with GBUs without having created a steerpoint previously. 

Have tried everything, but no success. Any ideas? Thanks!!

 

Kind of works as I described above: select your GBUs, use CCRP mode, set TGP to snow plow, set HUD as SOI, use TDC to slew target box in in HUD, cancel snow plow mode in TGP

Now you should be able to slew the TDC in the HUD or the TGP and they should follow one another

[Shadak]

I had a lot of issues to get Snowplow to work but I think I figured it out after a lot of testing. Boresighting the MAV is important yes, I usually do it on the ground or if I forget to power on MAV i use some house to point track etc. no big deal.

 

Now with Snowplow - what I had to do was face the steer point, disengage any targets in both screens and get out of any SOI so none of the 2 screens are selected, re-center TGP and MAV on the steerpoint and still without selecting SOI slew around to make sure they are moving together. Now at this point when you click SP and then SP again, the TGP should stay on HUD and moves with the plane nicely. I tested this quite a lot of times and it worked. I think you just need to bring the MAV and TGP together to the steerpoint so they "align" and then it lets you SP. I assume this should work with all armaments.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Shadak

[Goa]

Personally I can't get the tpod to slew whilst on the ground, was trying to follow grim reapers procedure, how Do I move the tpod when on ground? 

[Jerec]

Sorry it doesn´t work!
As you described. A/G mode, GBU selected with CCRP, TGP with snow plough mode (SP) and HUD SOI. Can´t slew the box in the HUD. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Jerec

[Donglr]

1 hour ago, Jerec said:

Sorry it doesn´t work!
As you described. A/G mode, GBU selected with CCRP, TGP with snow plough mode (SP) and HUD SOI. Can´t slew the box in the HUD. 

 

You have to cancel snow plow by pressing SP again. You need to get into SP mode so the TGP starts to look in front tinstead of to the current steerpoint. But while in SP mode you cannot slew. Basically you only activate SP briefly to force the TGP to look ahead, because it has no such thing as a "boresight" position.

1 hour ago, Goa said:

Personally I can't get the tpod to slew whilst on the ground, was trying to follow grim reapers procedure, how Do I move the tpod when on ground? 

 

When you want to boresight MAVs on the ground make sure you are in PRE mode, you cannot slew it when in VIS.

 

If you want to slew it with a weapon other than MAV active be sure you are in CCRP mode, cannot slew in CCIP.

[Shadak]

3 hours ago, Jerec said:

Sorry it doesn´t work!
As you described. A/G mode, GBU selected with CCRP, TGP with snow plough mode (SP) and HUD SOI. Can´t slew the box in the HUD. 

 

I just tested this with bombs and it works fine but I do find I need to face the steerpoint before I SP.

 

So I switch to AG, do CCRP, TGP on left MFD, HUD as SOI still ... not sure if its placebo but now I move the pointer from steerpoint around to see if it works OK, then I click SP and SP again to deselect and pointer jumps to center of HUD and it moves with the jet.

 

Now couple of times it didnt work when I started to do other things first, like targetting etc. so to fix it, I faced the steer point again, made TGP SOI, selected a point track, then deselected using the sensor down or whatever is the key to release the lock  , and after that click SP 2 times again, that would bring it to snowplow. This is when facing the steer point (I usually click back and forth on the rocker switch to make steerpoint the current target so I know im facing it)

 

Made a quick video just for the CCRP snowplow:

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Shadak

[Jerec]

8 hours ago, Shadak said:

I need to face the steerpoint before

I talked about slewing the TGP in HUD WITHOUT having created a steerpoint in the ME before! Like in the F-18 or JF-17. With steerpoint it workes fine, but without it doens´t. 

[Shadak]

Yes it needs a steerpoint, at least a "dummy" one you create on the go, its an annoyance but relatively minor one, is there any reason not to have any steerpoints? I mean even if you act as kind of a QRF on the base, you would be headed to a ground target based on a waypoint.

[Sr.]

Begs the question... will the F-16 JHMCS ever have the ability to create mark points?