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Amount of G-tolerance the F16 pilot needs to use the F16s turn capacities


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I checked the rules if its is allowed to post such a comparison, and I did not find any rule I might comply with. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

I know ED is working on the G modeling. And great progress has been done so far.

Here I did a video comparison between a Thunderbirds F16 and the DCS F16 for a full 360 degree turn.

 

Like the disclaimer in the video says: I know that the comparison is totally inaccurate, as it lacks many essential information. This is just an illustration about the impression the DCS F16 makes on me in early November 2020.

 

Please note that in the first test, with g-effects disabled, the DCS F16 shows the same performance as the real F16. Which makes me conclude that many issues we have, does not come primarily from the flight model, but from the g-modeling itself.

 

As you can see in the second test, with g effects enabled, to achieve the same results as the real F16 I had to pull to almost blackout the pilot and almost lose conciousness. I doubt that the Thunderbirds pilot would fly in real life almost to the edge of passing out.

 

The third and fourth tests are just to find out, if a similar turn can be created while working around the g effect, which was not possible.

 

If you watch the first test again, you see that with full stick aft, the pilot needs to withstand 9 Gs for 10 seconds until the F16 bled its speed down, which makes it pull less than 7.5 Gs from that point. Was that the case for the Tunderbirds pilot? I don't know, but I guess its possible.

 

Please keep this thread a “g modelling dicussion only” thread. There are a lots of other threads about the flight model, onset rate or the DCS F16 bleeding speed behavior. This thread is not about any of those.

 

Watch the video here. For unknown reason embedding does not work:

 

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How do you disable G-effects? I would like to test this. What were the the start and end speeds of the Thunderbird? What was the diameter of the turn for each plane?

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Please keep this thread a “g modelling dicussion only” thread.

 

Impossible. Half the reason you are pulling so much g is because the DCS Viper turns like poop below 450 knots. You could keep a similar rate with less g otherwise. Remember a=v^2/r.

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So, I tried both settings in a guns only dogfight mission. In the first I pulled as hard as I could on the stick, and it was a total mess. I lost speed rapidly, and had to struggle out of near stall conditions over and over. In the second flight, with g-effects on, I decided to stay at 15000 and force the fight down low. I also did not stray outside of my 350kts to 550 kts envelope during turns. And finally, I decided never to go vertical in a chase. I did not experience the blackout affect, and it was a much more satisfying experience. I used much smaller stick inputs on the second flight to keep my speed up. I think the strategy with the model right now is to stay low, don't go vertical, and manage the speed envelope strictly by not being ham-fisted with stick inputs. I'll try a few more flights with this strategy, and let you know.

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I am not talking about the strategies that are necessary with the current g model. I talk about that the current DCS F16 pilot can't withstand the amount of Gs a real pilot obviously can.

Thus the DCS F16 can't be flown how it performs best and how it was designed to be flown.

If a real pilot can sustain a 360 degree turn and does not black out until the aircraft itself can not go for 9Gs any more, but the same maneuver can't be done in DCS, then the G model must still be off, as it can be done in DCS, very similar to real life, when g effects are disabled.

The 360 degree turn was only the best way to illustrate it.

I don't talk about that the DCS pilot needs to sustain Gs longer than a real pilot, because I want to cheat, or pull the stick forever because I like the feeling. But there are some real life F16 combat maneuvers that require the pilot to pull 9 Gs at least for a 180 degree turn until a second merge. And if you watch the second video, with g effects on, even a 9G 180 degree turn is not possible without almost blacking out and losing sight of the bandit. The DCS pilot is unconscious after 8 seconds of 9G. A 180 degrees for that maneuver would require him to sustain 9Gs for 10 seconds which he is clearly not capable of at the moment.

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Sure, I watched your video again, and the G-effect looks okay. The onset started before 9g and you seem to be blacked out by 9g. Are you asking for the onset to start later and blackout to occur after a certain amount of time in 9g?

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Okay, I see the point you are trying to make, but your logic is faulty. You assume a lot about that Thunderbird video, and you can't know that the pilot sustained 9g's for 10 seconds. Science indicates that 9gs even for a couple of seconds is unsustainable. I think the model is close.

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The Viper itself is underperforming in terms of ITR & STR, there's no way around this, we have the real life EM diagrams to confirm this. The whimpy pilot model just adds insult to injury by making the pilot incapable of sustaining 9 G any better than when in an aircraft without a reclined seat + positive pressure oxygen mask.

 

As has been mentioned many a time before, the USAF conducted lots of tests on the G resistance of the average pilots:

 

https://www.sto.nato.int/publication...ARD-AG-322.pdf

 

Excerpt:

"The maximum G level obtainable using the anti-G suit and AGSM has never been systematically measured in the laboratry.: The maximum G level duration attempted in an upright seat usng only an anti-G suit and AGSM was 9G for 45 seconds which was attained by 9 of 14 subjects in a study conducted at USAFSAM in 1972 "

 

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e10...6e83c862ba.pdf

 

Excerpt:

"When the F-16-configured seat is used, the training profiles are set 1 G higher than they are when the conventional fighter aircraft seat (13* seatback angle, normal

rudder pedal position) is used. The higher-G profiles are used with the F-16 seat because pilots report a 1- to 2-G subjective improvement in G tolerance in the F-16 as compared to other fighter aircraft, and because data obtained during centrifuge training when both types of seat were used revealed at least 0.8 G greater tolerances in the F- 16-configured seat than in the conventional seat"

 

https://link.springer.com/content/pd...3030-8%2F1.pdf

 

Excerpt:

"Tolerance. Average aircrew relaxed G tolerance in the F-16 seat is about 5.2 G (about .5 to .75 G less in aircraft without a reclined seat); the G suit can add another 1 G, and a good AOSM can add another 3.5 G or more of tolerance. When these are totaled, one can see that 9 G is a big challenge for most aircrew; there is little or no safety margin"

 

 

 

So based on the litterature available, an F-16 pilot should on average be able to sustain about 0.8 G more than for example an F-15, F-14 or F/A-18 pilot, and that's only counting the effect of the reclined seat and ignoring the effect of the positive pressure oxygen mask. Adding in the latter and it's entirely possible that Viper pilots in general have a 1 G or greater advantage in tolerance as mentioned in excerpt no.2.

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Hummingbird is right. You can even look at dtic.mil documents that detail the centrifuge profiles for High G training. After a quick google search, I found one from 1988 that shows multiple rapid onset rate profiles for 8G for 10-15 sec, 9G for 10-15 seconds, as well as a "Check Six" 9G for 10 seconds. Not sure how these profiles have evolved in newer years, but considering there's many videos of this exact centrifuge training where the pilots don't even have any vision loss during the strain (let alone greyout or GLOC), I think the evidence is overwhelming that our DCS "pilot" is severely underperforming. And this is even before we get into the current issues with the FM of the Viper.

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Okay, so looks like the consensus is to push out the onset and allow the DCS pilot to sustain max 9g limit for a longer period. Perhaps that is more realistic. My point is that more fidelity in the g-modeling is not preventing the DCS pilot from handling the Viper effectively. In this ACMI, I exceed my 350-550 envelope a couple of times. These are all Ace AI's.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dzkucbjk77mxpy2/Tacview-20201102-125644-DCS.zip.acmi?dl=0

 

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Glide, I really appreciate your efforts in testing the current DCS Viper and its pilot. This thread is just about the current g modelling, and nothing else.

Let me make sure one more time. This comparison I created is totally inaccurate, like I said. I know that. I want to illustrate that the g modeling is not just slightly off, it is way off.

A 360 degree turn can currently only be done with the pilot almost getting unconcious.

A lot of Viper tactics are built around a 9G 180 degree turn starting at 450 kts, which takes approximately 10 seconds. The current pilot is going to g lock after 8 seconds, losing vision, then going to sleep. There is no way these tactics can not be used in DCS with the Viper right now. Why would there be tactics out in the real world a real pilot could not handle.

Let ED catch this thread up as a g modelling only thread and leave the FM talk and the talk about how to fight with the current DCS F16 to the other threads. It will help the F16 and the people who like the F16 and have a basic understanding as flight sim enthousiasts about how the F16 needs to be flown, which can't be done with that pilot right now.

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Here is the same Thunderbird pass from onboard, with the G counter overlay. https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=704569116658746 sorry it is a social media link, Mace doesn't upload any to Youtube.

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Does DCS have per-plane G modeling at all? Because this is kind of important for the Viper. An oxygen mask isn't exclusive to it, but the reclined seat very much is, and that alone should greatly enhance G tolerance. OTOH, WWII planes don't have any of that, and so their pilots should be able to take rather less G before blacking out.

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Thanks for the video @Panther.

 

I did a comparison with that one too. I tried to reach 8 G the same time the Thunderbirds pilot does. Watch it here:

 

Notice that I even start later with building Gs and I even losen the turn down to 8 Gs, when the Thunderbird pilot still pulls 8,5 Gs.

 

Again, I understand we know nothing about the F16, or about the pilot and how well trained he is in g-straining. Also I am not saying a real pilot will sustain 9G for exact 10 seconds, or exact 15 seconds. I know it depends, and it is extremely demanding to find a good compromise to model that in a sim.

 

This is just an illustration that the current DCS F16 pilots g-model does not allow to recreate this turn shown by a real F16 pilot. This is not even a video about a turn flown in combat. This is done for an airshow.

 

And if it would be necessary for the real pilot to get close to a blackout and totally losing his vision, like in DCS, there was no way this maneuver would be allowed to be shown at a public air show.

 

My point is, again, the g-model is the most restricting factor for the DCS F16, not an incomplete flight model. Even with the final flight model the outcome would not be too different, I guess.

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"Centrifuge qual requires a continuous 30 second G strain. Starts at 9G, drops to 3G, jumps back up to 9G, drops to 3G and then goes up to 9G again until the end. It's hellish, but 9Gs in the fuge feels different than 9Gs in a jet. The last ramp is 10 seconds of 9G and you must stay conscious without losing vision to pass."

 

This is from a F16 guy in USAF.

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Do the Thunderbirds even wear a G-suit?

 

Yes, they do.

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That is very fine flying on the Thunderbird pilot's part. I tried to hold a knife edge turn without losing speed pulling a constant 8 gs a few times with a few different loads. I came the closest with weapons dry and bingo fuel, but it will take practice. When I get that good, then I'll comment on the model. I'm glad you started this thread, @darkman222 , because it's helped me be a better pilot.

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Can we keep it a g-modeling only thread here please? I want to hear your opinions about if it is just me, who thinks that ED is apparently missing a major issue with the F16 and the g-modeling, which is always getting diluted in other threads, thus not getting the attention it needs to get.

I am glad I already caught the attention of a closed beta tester who is aware of what I am talking here.

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Can we keep it a g-modeling only thread here please? I want to hear your opinions about if it is just me, who thinks that ED is apparently missing a major issue with the F16 and the g-modeling, which is always getting diluted in other threads, thus not getting the attention it needs to get.

I am glad I already caught the attention of a closed beta tester who is aware of what I am talking here.

 

If you're going to use the TB's to compare to the DCS Viper. It would be good to know if their planes are modified. My post was on topic.

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@darkman222 IMHO, I think you can fly this model very effectively. If you think there are issues, I would say keep practicing. The blackout affect is there to tell the pilot that you can't stay at the edge of the envelope for very long. I've beat that Ace level dogfight mission a few times now, but Red wins more than Blue and I'm glad it's not too easy. IMHO, I don't think there's an issue.

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Do they fly modified planes to be able to do some aerobatic moves?

 

 

No. The F-16 the Thunderbirds fly is no different than a combat coded F16 in regards to flight handling. There is modifications that are done e.g. removed gun system and replace with oil system, route smoke plumbing, remove JFS doors, and a few other mods, but it will not change how the aircraft performs. For example, this year they had a gray F-16 that they used for the better part of the season for training, and media rides. That F-16 was a loaner from the 64th at Nellis, but it is now in paint to be a full up red, white, blue F-16.

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