MiG-19 vs. AI MiG-15

[Dragon1-1]

I'm new to MiG-19, coming over from more advanced fighters, and I sure could use some help with the transition, specifically, with the training missions. I'm somewhat familiar with how to fight in a rate fighter, but against the MiG-15 that the "guns without radar" mission puts you up against, my bag of tricks doesn't seem to help much. I'd appreciate any tips on what I should be trying to do in that fight. The best I can manage is a head-on pass, and neither guns nor missiles that it carries are all that good in such situation. The MiG-15 just never seems to run out of energy, while I very much do, even if I manage to keep my kinetic energy, the chemical energy eventually gets spent, which, in the MiG-19 in particular, doesn't even take that long. I just can't put him on the nose before I run out of gas.

 

Now, I'm aware that AI FM of the MiG-15 is somewhat OP, but I don't think it's so bad as to be unbeatable.

[gavagai]

Boom and Zoom like you're in a WW2 fighter. And, yeah, the AI cheats.

[Dragon1-1]

I guess I can try that, one thing I'm sure MiG-15 can't do is go supersonic. :) My experience with WWII fighters (in another sim) is with Soviet fighters, so I don't have that much experience with boom and zoom. I guess it's time to practice, then. :)

[cromhunt]

i don't know if these videos could be useful?But you could see what about the boom and zoom;And first be patient,the AI is not so good and always do same moves to follow it.

Do like the AI does.

Sorry i don't have the Mig 19

[Dragon1-1]

I can be patient, but my bingo light isn't! :) Playtime is very limited in the MiG-19, that's one of my biggest problems.

 

I don't know how the Sabre compares to MiG-15, but I'll try something similar to the video.

[TLTeo]

Check the AI difficulty setting. If it's anything above Normal (or I think Trained in the newest versions?), tone it down. That gets rid of some of the cheating.

[Dragon1-1]

It's Veteran, which used to be Normal, I think. Turned out boom and zoom didn't work so well, it just turned into me, head on pass, and I was doing these until I ran out of gas. The only time I'm able to get my sight anywhere near it is when it's coming at me head-on. Anything I do after the merge just gets me another head-on pass at best.

[Paganus]

Use your power advantage to go vertical. Dive shoot climb, repeat.

[Dragon1-1]

It would be a nice tactic, except the MiG-15 somehow always finds a way to face me head-on. Everything I do results in a regular merge, it can somehow turn on a dime and face me without any loss of energy. In fact, given how fast, I'm not sure the power advantage does me any good. I can pretty much extend at will, so there's that, but once it starts doing loops, it seems to be able to do so indefinitely. If I try to follow, I just stall out.

[Paganus]

Sounds like you're not getting your afterburner on. You have a massive power advantage. You should be the one doing big loop turns with attacks in your favor always.

 

Check your control setup for the afterburners. Make sure you know where the indicator lights are.

[Dragon1-1]

I am using my afterburner, how do you think I run out of fuel so quickly? :) Lights are on and all that. In fact, due to the funny way it works in MiG-19, I sometimes don't succeed in turning it off when I should. I know I should be the one flying circles around him, but it isn't so, and this is why it's so frustrating.

[Dragon1-1]

The thing is, it really isn't. It's got amazing TWR (for the time), it's fast, can outturn and outaccelerate the likes of F-4, and it can sustain a relatively high G when in AB. The problem is MiG-15 and its AI, which not only cheats, but does so in a quite egregious manner. Also, the MiG-15 is a very maneuverable fighter, which is different from the F-4 or most of the Century series fighters.

[cromhunt]

Hello:) did you try to make a dogfight Mig15 versus Mig15,By this way you could learn where the Mig15 is weak and adapt your tactics on Mig19 maybe.Remember that AI makes every time the same tactics

[Dragon1-1]

No, I didn't, and in fact, I don't have the MiG-15. Nice suggestion, but my spending limit for this sale is used up. :)

 

The real problem, however, is that AI doesn't fly like the player. It should have the same weaknesses as MiG-19, only missing a few of its strengths.

[Paganus]

Ok if everything is working and you have full power, the only other thing I can think of, is you are just pulling too hard on the stick. If you kill your speed in the 19 it takes a long time in nose down attitude to get it back. Keep your eye on the speed and stay above 700.

[solidGad]

Mig 19 is a horrible dogfighter that's why i did not buy it.

 

nonsense. i just got the glorious Mig-19 and it's a hoot to fly and fight with. Maybe the Mig-15 is a bit tough but fighting F-4s and F-5s is very fun in it.

[captain_dalan]

Uh-oh....... forget about most dogfighting tips you got in the above text, most are completely useless against the AI. Even if on less then Ace difficulty. Use the vertical? The AI MiG-15 can out climb or hang with the F-14B and F-16C up to 30000ft. How are you gonna use the vertical against that? And when it enters the vertical loop it can stay there until YOU run out of fuel. YOU need burner just to keep up with it. The AI doesn't need a burner. It doesn't even have a burner. The matrix however gives it all the excess power it needs to complete every maneuver it has in mind.

 

So how do you fight it? Though i have the 19, i haven't really flown it all that much, at least not in combat environment. But the AI is extremely formulaic, though not always easy to counter. But most fights against it will go like this:

1. AI will enter into a 2 circle turning contest with you;

2. The turning contest will evolve into a downward spiral so it can generate max TR

3. Just before it runs out of altitude, it will unload momentarily to gain some energy

4. It will enter the vertical loop, with a slight offset toward your relative position.

 

This is how 99% of AI engagements look like, especially on Ace difficulty. Now 3 is the most favorable moment to strike, especially if your plane can't keep up with the AI. So you need to practice how to predict when this action is about to occur and prepare accordingly. That means you need to get to "hard deck" before the AI does, with enough time to recover enough of your energy in order to either catch up with the AI as it unloads, or follow it through the early stages of its loop where it will fly relatively straight and predictable. You are only going to get 1 or at best 2 shots at this. So use them wisely!

[Dragon1-1]

Funnily, it's not Ace, it's Veteran. I've checked the training mission. Also, in my experience, it doesn't go into a 2-circle fight, but immediately goes vertical and starts doing its crazy loops. I can't keep up with it through this maneuver, not in a MiG-19. No spiraling seems to occur, either, just loops.

 

I'm on OB, BTW, just in case it matters.

[Doc3908]

Just tried both Mig-19 vs Mig-15 and Mig-15 vs Mig-15. The AI is set to "veteran". I won 2 of the 3 Mig-15 vs Mig-15 engagements, but got my butt kicked all three times when I was flying the Mig-19. Argh!! Need more practice. :)

[captain_dalan]

I don't yet have the MiG-15, so unfortunately i can't do the best experiment and go head to head in one and fight a mirror match, thus best accounting for the performance differences, but it did do some AI fights in the last month, just to see how it feels fighting it, when compared to other planes in DCS. This is what i got:

 

 

The AI MiG-15 seams to leave in the dust many of the more modern planes

[hassanali70]

BEAUTIFUL MY DEAR THANK YOU

[hassanali70]

BEAUTIFUL

[Dragon1-1]

So, using the free trail period I checked out the MiG-15, and found that it might not just be an AI problem - it doesn't seem to lose any speed in a turn! The Sabre has this, too, I've took both of them to 8G or so, including those crazy loops, and the airspeed indicator didn't budge. I'm pretty sure easy FM wasn't on. Also, I could pull the stick to the stops, and they wouldn't stall or anything.

 

This bears further investigation by an actual owner (I'm not planning to buy either of those), but it seems that there's something wrong with either thrust or drag on those two. 

[rossmum]

I know you said quite sure, but are you really sure? Because I can absolutely tell you that you feel the lack of thrust in both and they will stall and attempt to enter a spin quite merrily if you pull the stick to your guts.

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, I double-checked, just to be sure. I had no game FM on, and yet, both of those planes, at medium speed and on deck, appeared to sustain a max performance pull without losing much if any speed. Unfortunately, I had no more time for testing this further.