Auto Air to Air Refuel

[Rhinozherous]

Hello!

 

FIRST - Yes I know, maybe anyone who trains enough could learn AAR. And if you are here just to tell how good you are in AAR, please dont do it. This is not the purpose of this thread.

 

I just want to signal that this feature is still wished by people flying DCS. I know I will never have the time to learn AAR, but I also want to have the possibility to refuel smaller fueltank aircraft.

I dont want to discuss if people who are able to AAR may find such a feature useful or not.

 

Thank you.

 

[SharpeXB]

anyone who trains enough could learn AAR.

You’ve answered your own question :smilewink:

Where’s the thrill in watching your aircraft fly itself? So just put in some practice and revel in the accomplishment. Or just select unlimited fuel.

 

 

[Qiou87]

You’ve answered your own question :smilewink:

Where’s the thrill in watching your aircraft fly itself? So just put in some practice and revel in the accomplishment. Or just select unlimited fuel.

 

There are options in the game to simplify some things. Having something like "grab the basket = you get your plane refueled", instead of having to stay attached for 5-10min, would probably be possible and a nice friendly option. Not everyone has hours to spend on training for something like AAR, it doesn't mean they should just forget about it altogether.

 

It would also be a nice way to build up your skill ; if you know all you have to do is grab the basket and you're done, you will probably do more trips to the tanker in regular missions when one is available. In turn, these trips will make you more comfortable behind it, and at some point you might feel like disabling the assistance and going for realistic AAR. But if this assistance doesn't exist, you'll probably not even bother to try and just hit an airport to refuel instead, never building up said skill.

[Rhinozherous]

You’ve answered your own question :smilewink:

Where’s the thrill in watching your aircraft fly itself? So just put in some practice and revel in the accomplishment. Or just select unlimited fuel.

 

 

It was no question.

[Tippis]

Absolutely, but it depends a lot on how it's implemented. What would the "automation" consist of, and in particular what steps would be automated to what degree?

 

A huge portion of AAR is getting your eye in as far as positioning and relative speeds go and any tool to help players get a sense of that would help significantly in the learning process. The other issue is usually getting the trim and having a steady hand, and that's the part where automation would not work as a teaching tool if it was not highly adjustable -- e.g. a variable (preferably live-variable) amount of either positional or input damping so the control requirement can be ramped up gradually.

 

Funnily enough, some of the AAR in DCS would be made a fair bit easier if it was made more realistic and more interactive, rather than the opposite, but for once, the two are not actually mutually exclusive. Increased realism would make some variants of automation a lot more impactful for the beginner trying to learn, if nothing else because there would be more parameter that could be adjusted in that automation.

[Furiz]

Hello!

 

I know I will never have the time to learn AAR.

 

 

A simple mission will take out at least 1 hour or two, so use that hour or two that you have to play to practice refueling.

Its not easy but it takes some practice and you will be a happier person once you air refuel.

 

I still cant get it perfect, I do disconnect few times till I fill it up but I keep trying and keep practicing, that's why I bought the modules, cause of the realism, if I wanted arcade I'd go Ace Combat.

[SharpeXB]

Having something like "grab the basket = you get your plane refueled", instead of having to stay attached for 5-10min, would probably be possible and a nice friendly option.

This would just train you to smash your plane into the basket or probe instead of flying under control. If you can connect then you can stay connected, actually with the basket staying connected is the easier part.

Game “helpers” tend to become crutches and not help. For myself I know I inherited a ton of bad reflexes from the “easy mode” in flying games that really screwed me up for a time with actual sims.

 

 

[Tippis]

Game “helpers” tend to become crutches and not help.

 

That would just be a bonus benefit of a well-implemented system on top of also improving the inventory of teaching tools available.

[Rhinozherous]

Regarding the realism in DCS - There is an "Easy Communication" option, an "Auto Startup" feature, graphics that show controler positions.... Why not anything for helping in AAR?

 

I dont get it why everyone is argumenting against this. If you dont like Easy Comms, you just dont use it. Why not the same with an AAR feature? Nobody wants to take your skills from you.

[Mars Exulte]

AAR is formation flying behind a (usually) larger aircraft. People struggling with it are vastly overcomplicating it in their own minds.

 

Formation flying is literally Flight 101 stuff. If you can do that, you can AAR. If you can't fly in a semi stable formation, then you should probably invest slightly more time into ''not sucking at the basics'' and a little less in ''mashing spacebar to make things go boom''. Believe it or not, basic proficiency/competency with core flight skills will make you better at making things go boom, too.

 

It also does not take ''many hours'' to learn either formation or AAR. It's definitely a ''in an afternoon'' sort of thing.

[Vanguard]

To each their own. I've never really needed to AAR, I just do it for funzies. If you don't have much time, I can't imagine a mission long enough to need AAR that you have have the time to play anyway.

 

But whatever, why not pick unlimited fuel and just fly behind it for a bit to make yourself feel better? whats the difference, a graphic connection between the two aircraft giving a hollow sense of accomplishment?

 

MAC is coming, maybe it will address such a thing, it is the primary purpose of it if I understand correctly.

[Qiou87]

It also does not take ''many hours'' to learn either formation or AAR. It's definitely a ''in an afternoon'' sort of thing.

 

You assume a lot of things. Not everyone learns at the same rate. I tried and never managed to not get frustrated with AAR. When I grab the basket, staying at the same speed exactly as the tanker is not as easy. And then that idiot decides to make a turn without notifying. I actually manage to grab it, but holding on is clearly not as easy to me and my meager skills. Doesn't mean I should just go back to fly Ace Combat. And I prefer to spend the time I have to play practising more fun skills. To each his own.

 

Clearly this is something which is recognized, as recent campaigns (like Raven One, or Serpent's head) have an easy AAR option. Here the OP is only asking for something included in the game, like auto-start or easy coms. I agree with Rhinozherous: why argue against something that you personally wouldn't use, but might help others?

[Rhinozherous]

To each their own. I've never really needed to AAR, I just do it for funzies. If you don't have much time, I can't imagine a mission long enough to need AAR that you have have the time to play anyway.

 

But whatever, why not pick unlimited fuel and just fly behind it for a bit to make yourself feel better? whats the difference, a graphic connection between the two aircraft giving a hollow sense of accomplishment?

 

MAC is coming, maybe it will address such a thing, it is the primary purpose of it if I understand correctly.

 

What is MAC?

[ak12546]

 

What is MAC?

 

MAC (Modern Air Combat) is like a sequel to Flaming Cliffs. It will be it’s own separate software with a bunch of simplified DCS aircraft with more simple systems and startups. It’s the stepping stone between something like War Thunder and DCS

[Qiou87]

But whatever, why not pick unlimited fuel and just fly behind it for a bit to make yourself feel better? whats the difference, a graphic connection between the two aircraft giving a hollow sense of accomplishment?

 

"Unlimited fuel" is not the same as having a simplified AAR. Unlimited fuel means you can take off with 500lbs of fuel, no drop tanks and just ordinance, and still fly for 2 hours. Using "unlimited fuel" is not removing just a little bit of realism, like an easier AAR system would, it is removing a lot. You can fly in AB all the time, fly low to the ground... Anything becomes possible. Easier AAR just means you don't have to know how to keep steady for 10min behind a tanker, that is not the same league of "simplification".

[Rhinozherous]

 

"Unlimited fuel" is not the same as having a simplified AAR. Unlimited fuel means you can take off with 500lbs of fuel, no drop tanks and just ordinance, and still fly for 2 hours. Using "unlimited fuel" is not removing just a little bit of realism, like an easier AAR system would, it is removing a lot. You can fly in AB all the time, fly low to the ground... Anything becomes possible. Easier AAR just means you don't have to know how to keep steady for 10min behind a tanker, that is not the same league of "simplification".

 

This is absolutely true!

[SharpeXB]

I can't imagine a mission long enough to need AAR that you have have the time to play anyway.

When flying the A-10C or the M-2000, yeah I never had missions long enough, even realistic ones like Red Flag, to require AAR. Now with the Hornet, yes. You need it. Which is good because now I actually get to use what I practiced. I did learn it in the A-10C just for Maple Flag but really never get to do it.

 

Really. All games are difficult. AAR isn’t anymore difficult than skills in many other games. I get the impression from this topic and others that lots of DCS players are not familiar with PC games in general and that this is their only experience with one. Try racing sims! Those are WAY harder than AAR in fact the entire race is more difficult and lasts longer. It’s like competitive AAR that lasts for 30 minutes straight. Or longer.

Every game (except maybe farming simulator) is difficult and requires skills, DCS is no different.

 

Regarding the realism in DCS - There is an "Easy Communication" option, an "Auto Startup" feature, graphics that show controler positions.... Why not anything for helping in AAR?

Like I said, IMO any helpers in a game are a disservice and a crutch, why would I pay $89 for a full systems plane and then push a key to start it? Makes no sense. Anything like HUD graphics, icons etc. the best thing you can do for yourself is switch all that stuff off. If anything it means you’re getting your moneys’ worth from the sim.

[TotenDead]

Желаю всем, кто против подобных упрощений, чтоб у них подвеска вооружения и дозаправка на земле занимали столько же времени, сколько в реальности

[TotenDead]

Like I said, IMO any helpers in a game are a disservice and a crutch, why would I pay $89 for a full systems plane and then push a key to start it? Makes no sense.

 

Тебя заставляют пользоваться упрощениями? Нет? Плати сколько тебе нравится, чтоб потыкать в кнопочки, тебе не запрещают этим заниматься. По твоей логике в ДКС нужно убрать все настройки кроме как "как в реальной жизни" включая внешние виды, метки и так далее. Ведь не за это же ты платишь

[Vanguard]

 

"Unlimited fuel" is not the same as having a simplified AAR. Unlimited fuel means you can take off with 500lbs of fuel, no drop tanks and just ordinance, and still fly for 2 hours. Using "unlimited fuel" is not removing just a little bit of realism, like an easier AAR system would, it is removing a lot. You can fly in AB all the time, fly low to the ground... Anything becomes possible. Easier AAR just means you don't have to know how to keep steady for 10min behind a tanker, that is not the same league of "simplification".

 

Yep, I'll buy that, true enough.

 

When flying the A-10C or the M-2000, yeah I never had missions long enough, even realistic ones like Red Flag, to require AAR. Now with the Hornet, yes. You need it. Which is good because now I actually get to use what I practiced. I did learn it in the A-10C just for Maple Flag but really never get to do it.

 

What's really interesting about that is I just recently completed the Operation Exigent Riviera (highly recommended BTW), and it really taught me to manage fuel for the 18. I thought it was a really thirsty bird, but after being forced to manage it properly, I realized it was me. No doubt, in A2A with plenty of AB, AAR is required, but I'd argue with proper fuel management that entire campaign could be flown without it. IRL these boys are often flying further than the width of our maps before they even enter the AO! Now I fly around 60% throttle in-bound and out-bound of the AO, and it's a world of difference. 315 IAS @30,000ft is over 500 knots TAS!

[SharpeXB]

 

Yep, I'll buy that, true enough.

 

 

 

What's really interesting about that is I just recently completed the Operation Exigent Riviera (highly recommended BTW), and it really taught me to manage fuel for the 18. I thought it was a really thirsty bird, but after being forced to manage it properly, I realized it was me. No doubt, in A2A with plenty of AB, AAR is required, but I'd argue with proper fuel management that entire campaign could be flown without it. IRL these boys are often flying further than the width of our maps before they even enter the AO! Now I fly around 60% throttle in-bound and out-bound of the AO, and it's a world of difference. 315 IAS @30,000ft is over 500 knots TAS!

Yeah you really have to pay attention to it though. But it’s cool that you can actually need to AAR. Probably the Viper is the sane but I haven’t tried that one yet.

 

 

[Mr_sukebe]

When you say that it’s “wished by people”, can you quantify that, or do you mean just you?

[Vanguard]

Not everyone is able bodied and 30 years old bro, none of these asks should be frowned upon, they don't have be enabled in MP and gives a broader group access to the sim. If people are asking for a core change, I can understand, but an option that you don't have to use and would benefit others... doesn't hurt to ask, except in this community haha.

 

My old man is over 70, has some shakes in his hand and can't AAR to save his life. Other than that, completely fluent and able with the aircraft. We can't coop any missions that require it. It would be nice to rock up to the tanker and I could realistically AAR while he goes and fights the basket for a bit and then head into the AO. Why not? How does that hurt you?

[Rhinozherous]

Like I said, IMO any helpers in a game are a disservice and a crutch, why would I pay $89 for a full systems plane and then push a key to start it? Makes no sense. Anything like HUD graphics, icons etc. the best thing you can do for yourself is switch all that stuff off. If anything it means you’re getting your moneys’ worth from the sim.

 

As I said - No one is forcing you to use such functions! Autostart is already in the sim... Do you HAVE to use it, or are you able to startup from cold and dark if you want to? You get what you paid for, and an AAR function will not lower your experience.

 

 

[Rhinozherous]

When you say that it’s “wished by people”, can you quantify that, or do you mean just you?

 

Just read the thread... And why do you think I have to quantify anything here? This is the Wishlist forum.