Moving from MSFF2 to Virpil

[john4pap]

I've been flying with Microsoft Force Feedback 2 joystic for almost 20 years and it's been my first and only joystick (and in fact I haven't ever tried any other joystics apart from the non-FF Sidewinder owned by a friend). In the last two years I got a Virpil throttle and MFG pedals and I'm now pondering the idea of getting a new joystick from Virpil. The reason is that I now feel that the precision of MSFF2 is relatively low and I have to resort to some extreme custom curves for some planes (especially for the Spitfire and the BF109). I would looking for a desktop solution so I cannot go for the more precise ones with extensions.

 

Has anyone else here moved from MSFF2 to a desktop Virpil? Obviously one looses FF, but does precision compensate for this loss? How does it feel?

[Mr_sukebe]

I've only ever had an MSFF1, and frankly can't remember what it felt like. I'm now using a T50 base, 20cm extension and a Thrustmaster F18 grip. Tons of buttons and VERY precise. On top of that, feels lovely. I have NO curves in any aircraft.

[john4pap]

Well, in a way FF feels great for some aircraft. On WW2 planes you can feel when you need to trim (or adjust yaw) or when your blade is hit or when there's a problem with a flight surface. But it may get difficult in dogfights when the stick is moved from side to side where the curves are pretty steep. It also feels great for helicopters but one cannot use high curves there resulting to somewhat imprecise handling, especially on the Huey. In FBW aircraft like the mirage, FF has pretty much nothing to offer except for the stick shaker, but I can't remember if that's even implemented on the particular aircraft.

 

I like force feedback and I'm not sure how it is to fly without it, but it looks like there's a long way before we get anything marginally affordable.

 

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[Dirt_Merchant]

i mean i put a virpil grip on my msffb2 because i didnt want to give up the immersion. see thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/english/dcs-world-topics/input-and-output/289012-msffb2-mod-build-2020

[john4pap]

i mean i put a virpil grip on my msffb2 because i didnt want to give up the immersion. see thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/english/dcs-world-topics/input-and-output/289012-msffb2-mod-build-2020

Ah yes I've seen that one. One of the nicest builds I've ever seen.

 

I've always been wondering about these extensions on msff2 though. There's an annoying lack of forces in the middle of the stick. Doesn't that become too apparent when adding an extension?

 

 

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[Dirt_Merchant]

Ah yes I've seen that one. One of the nicest builds I've ever seen.

 

I've always been wondering about these extensions on msff2 though. There's an annoying lack of forces in the middle of the stick. Doesn't that become too apparent when adding an extension?

 

 

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you know, it is there, and you can also feel the cogging of the motors, and the gears, but to be honest - when in use, you really dont notice it.

 

There are a couple of gents on the forums developing FFB firmware for joysticks, and when that comes to fruition we will start to see several belt drive devices with anticogging measures implemented. of course, we'd be looking at scratch built controllers.

[john4pap]

 

 

 

you know, it is there, and you can also feel the cogging of the motors, and the gears, but to be honest - when in use, you really dont notice it.

 

There are a couple of gents on the forums developing FFB firmware for joysticks, and when that comes to fruition we will start to see several belt drive devices with anticogging measures implemented. of course, we'd be looking at scratch built controllers.

 

Right. Well I do hope that this will gradually translate to more competition for FF joysticks on the market since I will not be able to build one myself.

 

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[erniedaoage]

I was flying on the server with the new DM and as usual i got shot up pretty bad, the dash in my 109 was shaking so bad i had the feeling it would bail out before i do and my stick was shaking like mc hammer on meth. Immersion beats precision on my scale. And for the lack of forces in the middle i set a deadzone of 5 for everyplane, because every machine i handled in real life has a bit of clearance before something actually happens, some have more others less thats what i try to simulate with the 5% deadzone in the middle. I'm not a pilot nor did i have the chance so far to get in a real cockpit, but i believe there is some kind of clearance. There is also the point that all simulated sticks and cyclics are simulated to real life stick travel. So if you don't use an extension as close as possible to the real life counterpart, it doesn't make sense for me if you don't use a curve to flatten and dampen your input.

 

I am trying to get another msffb to mod a better stick to it, because i am to afraid to break mine in some way and than i have to go back to a dead stick :D

[john4pap]

 

 

I was flying on the server with the new DM and as usual i got shot up pretty bad, the dash in my 109 was shaking so bad i had the feeling it would bail out before i do and my stick was shaking like mc hammer on meth. Immersion beats precision on my scale. And for the lack of forces in the middle i set a deadzone of 5 for everyplane, because every machine i handled in real life has a bit of clearance before something actually happens, some have more others less thats what i try to simulate with the 5% deadzone in the middle. I'm not a pilot nor did i have the chance so far to get in a real cockpit, but i believe there is some kind of clearance. There is also the point that all simulated sticks and cyclics are simulated to real life stick travel. So if you don't use an extension as close as possible to the real life counterpart, it doesn't make sense for me if you don't use a curve to flatten and dampen your input.

 

I am trying to get another msffb to mod a better stick to it, because i am to afraid to break mine in some way and than i have to go back to a dead stick :D

 

I tried the new damage model for both the 109 and the Spit today and I know what you mean. Much better on the 109 but I still can't dogfight on that plane anyway. What you said about dead zone in real planes is interesting. I'm not sure if it's true since to my understanding you could feel the forces from the flight surfaces directly on the stick. If so, I think that there wouldn't be any room for dead zone or no-force zone.

I have tried adding a tiny bits of dead zone on different planes but can't say I like it.

 

 

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[erniedaoage]

Yeah you are right the stick would get heavier the faster you are. But if you move the real stick in the plane for 2-3mm around in the center it wouldn't be the same force you have to overcome as you would move the stick 5-7cm around. That's why iam using a deadzone of 5 and a curve of +15 so the zero feedback zone in the middle is dead. As soon as i feel resistance i know i am in the controllable area of the stick.

 

I also found another ffb2 which i try to get my hands on and 2 older ffb pro models. If i get all of them i have enough parts to maybe do my own ffb stick with extension and grip :)

[john4pap]

 

 

Yeah you are right the stick would get heavier the faster you are. But if you move the real stick in the plane for 2-3mm around in the center it wouldn't be the same force you have to overcome as you would move the stick 5-7cm around. That's why iam using a deadzone of 5 and a curve of +15 so the zero feedback zone in the middle is dead. As soon as i feel resistance i know i am in the controllable area of the stick.

 

I also found another ffb2 which i try to get my hands on and 2 older ffb pro models. If i get all of them i have enough parts to maybe do my own ffb stick with extension and grip :)

 

Right. I see your point of view. I think I will try that to see how it feels. Thanks ;)

 

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[Dirt_Merchant]

Yeah you are right the stick would get heavier the faster you are. But if you move the real stick in the plane for 2-3mm around in the center it wouldn't be the same force you have to overcome as you would move the stick 5-7cm around. That's why iam using a deadzone of 5 and a curve of +15 so the zero feedback zone in the middle is dead. As soon as i feel resistance i know i am in the controllable area of the stick.

 

I also found another ffb2 which i try to get my hands on and 2 older ffb pro models. If i get all of them i have enough parts to maybe do my own ffb stick with extension and grip :)

 

love the enthusiasm around FFB, and yes do get you some ffb2's stockpiled!

 

your thoughts on deadzone in real aircraft is deadass wrong though. there is never a no force zone, that would allow for flutter in the control surfaces which would go very sideways, very quickly. Almost all mechanical type systems (direct control) have some amount of preload applied to the control cables, or pushrods to take up any slack. if you're in an airplane that has slack in the controls, get the fuck out.

[john4pap]

Thought I should report back on this.

 

A couple of weeks ago I received my WarBRD base and Constellation Alpha grip. The difference in terms of precision is much greater than I expected. No need for extreme curves any more, or even no curves at all for some modules. Furthermore, the grip feels great. The only thing I disliked about it when it arrived was the centre detent so I replaced the default cams with the no-centre ones (included). It's perfect. I don't miss my MSFF2 at all in all modern and WW2 planes, as well as helicopters.