Joint use of FLIR and AGM65-F

[CougarFFW04]

Hi everybody,

 

I have read many threads about the FLIR and AGM65 but it is a bit confusing to me especially as I am talking about the -F (IR) version and not the -E (laser) version.

 

The idea here is to use the FLIR to target a moving target (|| symbol that follows the vehicle) and then SOI to the AGM FOV to fire it and then quickly switch to the next vehicle in close proximity. The problem seems to be that the AGM targets the ground and does not follow the vehicle. Also, the AGM's auto-steering seems to be locked and you have to "unblock" the FLIR to get your hand on the AGM. Worse still after the first shot, the AGM FOV reset to somewhere I don't even know where and it's a nightmare to find again the next vehicle.

 

So I would like to know if there is something I am doing wrong or if it is like that in the current state (as I understand it) and if ED is working on correcting the joint FLIR/AGM IR operation.

 

Thanks

[Harker]

When uncaged, the AGM-65F's (MAVF) seeker will slew itself to the current A/G designation and attempt to lock whatever it sees there, using contrast as the primary method of acquiring a target and locking it. Depending on the distance, whether the scene is cluttered with other objects or not and some other factors, it might or might not be able to achieve a contrast lock. In that case, you might have to undesignate (NWS button) and with the TDC assigned to the IMAV page, manually target the missile yourself. This gives you direct control, but still requires the missile to achieve a contrast lock, ultimately.

 

As for the designation issue, your TPOD can follow a moving target with in PTRK mode (with the | | reticle), but it does not automatically update the A/G designation as it goes. That requires action from you. With the TDC assigned to the FLIR page, you can press TDC Depress and update the A/G designation to correspond with the center of the TPOD's line of sight.

 

Keep in mind that depressing the TDC while in ATRK or PTRK mode will create a designation, as described before, but also bring up the Offset Cursor (marked with a +), which is a separate cursor that you can slew and designate with, without needing to move the entire TPOD. Since you can't slew the TPOD when in ATRK or PTRK, the Offset Cursor can be used to create designations away from the TPOD center. If you want to simply update the A/G designation and keep it at the center of the screen, just don't slew the + cursor and just use TDC Depress.

[Recluse]

Hi everybody,

 

I have read many threads about the FLIR and AGM65 but it is a bit confusing to me especially as I am talking about the -F (IR) version and not the -E (laser) version.

 

The idea here is to use the FLIR to target a moving target (|| symbol that follows the vehicle) and then SOI to the AGM FOV to fire it and then quickly switch to the next vehicle in close proximity. The problem seems to be that the AGM targets the ground and does not follow the vehicle. Also, the AGM's auto-steering seems to be locked and you have to "unblock" the FLIR to get your hand on the AGM. Worse still after the first shot, the AGM FOV reset to somewhere I don't even know where and it's a nightmare to find again the next vehicle.

 

So I would like to know if there is something I am doing wrong or if it is like that in the current state (as I understand it) and if ED is working on correcting the joint FLIR/AGM IR operation.

 

Thanks

 

You need to put the FLIR into POINT TRACK mode so it follows the Moving Target. Position the FLIR crosshairs just a ahead of the target and do Sensor Control Switch in the direction of the FLIR DDI twice to get the "Captains Bars" to catch the mover. If you successfully achieved the Point Track, the cursor will follow the target. Do a TDC DEPRESS to designate the new point track. You might have to do this several times to get it just right. If you miss the point track, you need to start over. You then need to get OUT of point track to once again slew the cursor by SCS in direction of DDI twice to get back to a slewable mode.

 

Here's a nice video..

 

[CougarFFW04]

Hi,

 

I think I was not clear enough...My problem is NOT with the FLIR designation of a moving target in PTRK mode. It works perfectly

It IS so to say to "transfert" the FLIR PTRK target to the AGM.

I just do a SOI from the FLIR page (right DDI) to the MAV IM page (left DDI) but although I am within 10nm from the target with good contrast the AGM does not lock.

 

If I do NOT get a good AGM lock and I must TDC depress again, which one must be SOI : the FLIR or the AGM IM ?

Anyway I will try again.

 

So another question: let's immagine that the following is working: FLIR PTRK target transmitted to the Maverick, good lock and fire.

Now what should I do to fire another target ?

- SOI from AGM to FLIR

- Designate another PTRK target

- SOI from FLIR to AGM and fire again

And so on. Right ?

 

Edit : Thanks for the video. The guy seems to have a lot of problem to get proper lock of the AGM seeker although it worked better in the desert try... Will try that.

[Harker]

I just do a SOI from the FLIR page (right DDI) to the MAV IM page (left DDI) but although I am within 10nm from the target with good contrast the AGM does not lock.

Don't expect to get a lock at 10 NM, it's more like 8 and below. The fact that you can see it on your DDI does not mean that the missile's on board computer can recognize it and lock it.

Also, the AGM-65F seeker picture we get in the F-18 in DCS is too good, better than IRL. If you have the A-10C, check the AGM-65D or G picture there, it's better modeled. You'll see that the picture quality is much lower.

 

So another question: let's immagine that the following is working: FLIR PTRK target transmitted to the Maverick, good lock and fire.

Now what should I do to fire another target ?

- SOI from AGM to FLIR

- Designate another PTRK target

- SOI from FLIR to AGM and fire again

And so on. Right ?

Yeah. Uncage the next MAVF and it should automatically slew to the new designated target.

 

Also, I personally find it easier to not go into PTRK and just manually adjust the TPOD for a new designation, sometimes.

 

It used to be that the MAVF seeker would snap to each new designation, so simply by slewing the TPOD around with an uncaged missile seeker, you could get it to follow the TPOD (since every it moves in it ground stabilized mode, it creates a new designation, if it's the designating sensor). That seems to be little iffy as of late, so the way you describe is definitely the "safe" way to go about it.

[oldcrusty]

Well Cougar, perhaps you were following the same simple way of looking at things as I did:

Find the moving target on FLIR and lock it.

Scoot over to MavF page and uncage the Mavs. (actually, it would be easier to uncage the Mavs first then just stay on FLIR)

The Mavs should be following the FLIR and attempt to lock... could take a little while but once they do, you get the firing solution and rifle. (it seems to help if you zoom in the Mav. You won't be able to zoom in when you're too close... makes sense)

On the FLIR page, designate another tgt. The Mavs should be uncaged so the next missile in sequence should snap to it and attempt to lock... and so on.

 

I know, that's just too simple so it can't be realistic;)

[Bearfoot]

I find that when in point track mode, the IR Mav locks on to the place where the point track was first established rather than where it is currently. Yes, even if the offset cross designated.

 

Of course, if you switch to the Mav page to fire right after a point track is made, then there is no issue as you will not notice the difference.

 

But if you are following a vehicle with the point track while, for e.g., waiting to come into Mav range to fire, then you have to "update" the target designation just before switching to the Mav page to fire. So, for example, establish point track on target (SCS right, right), TDC depress to get offset cross, let point track follow target until ready to fire, then TDC depress AGAIN to "update" target designation and then and only then switch to Mav page to uncage/fire.

 

Sometimes I have to go back and forth between TGP and Mav page a few times, with TDC depress on the point track each time in the TGP page to update the target designation, before the IR Mav finally sees what I am designating.

[Frederf]

Oh gosh, the idea of using FLIR in PTRK for two targets in a row sounds masochistic.

 

Provided you get a point track in the first place which is a completely unreasonable task, the FLIR designation is 1. instantaneous and 2. stationary. That means if you designate FLIR on a moving target it is instantly behind with the distance increasing as time goes on.

 

The AGM is cued to the designation only when that sensor is selected, otherwise it remains at the previous location. Because FLIR has to be selected to designate and MAV has to be selected to redirect the missile to the designation (which is where the target used to be). This alignment requires a constant cycle of three buttons: SCS right to select FLIR, designate, and SCS left to have the missile update to designation.

 

The AGM-65F automatically tracks objects within a small angular region. With a target moving at 10kt at 7nm that gives the track a half life of less than 2 seconds. You can play with this by putting a designated point in front of a moving vehicle and watching the missile go through the cycle of being too far away ahead, flickering between the point ahead and vehicle, tracking vehicle, flickering between the point behind and vehicle, and being too far away behind.

 

Now you can hold TDC and slew the missile, but you can't do it if there's a designated target. Let's assume you FLIR track and designate to get the missile pointing close to where the target used to be you can press undesignate to be able to control the missile to slew it onto the target. Great, but what about the second target? If you fire the next missile will be caged to boresight and since you pressed undesignate before good luck slewing that one to the second target. It's not possible for both missiles to track or even be off caged to boresight simultaneously.

 

The entire exercise is one of frustration.

[oldcrusty]

Oh gosh, the idea of using FLIR in PTRK for two targets in a row sounds masochistic.

 

Provided you get a point track in the first place which is a completely unreasonable task, the FLIR designation is 1. instantaneous and 2. stationary. That means if you designate FLIR on a moving target it is instantly behind with the distance increasing as time goes on.

 

The AGM is cued to the designation only when that sensor is selected, otherwise it remains at the previous location. Because FLIR has to be selected to designate and MAV has to be selected to redirect the missile to the designation (which is where the target used to be). This alignment requires a constant cycle of three buttons: SCS right to select FLIR, designate, and SCS left to have the missile update to designation.

 

The AGM-65F automatically tracks objects within a small angular region. With a target moving at 10kt at 7nm that gives the track a half life of less than 2 seconds. You can play with this by putting a designated point in front of a moving vehicle and watching the missile go through the cycle of being too far away ahead, flickering between the point ahead and vehicle, tracking vehicle, flickering between the point behind and vehicle, and being too far away behind.

 

Now you can hold TDC and slew the missile, but you can't do it if there's a designated target. Let's assume you FLIR track and designate to get the missile pointing close to where the target used to be you can press undesignate to be able to control the missile to slew it onto the target. Great, but what about the second target? If you fire the next missile will be caged to boresight and since you pressed undesignate before good luck slewing that one to the second target. It's not possible for both missiles to track or even be off caged to boresight simultaneously.

 

The entire exercise is one of frustration.

 

I did post a vid couple of weeks ago where I struggled with Tpod controlled MavF's and decided to dump the Tpod and use only MavF's seeker to acquire and launch. It wasn't easy but I was able to send 4 of the Mavs with all hits. As long as I could settle the jet on a steady shallow dive (slow) and point the Mav triangle on HUD directly at the target group. After the first missile launched the next one was already looking at that area and I could either slew (pain in the ass with WH mini TDC) or slightly maneuver the jet to line seeker on DDI with the next target.

[Bearfoot]

Lots of adequate points from a clearly non-empirical perspective, and you might be right in reality or theory ...

 

But it really is some armchair chin wagging either way where DCS is concerned, because in practice in the game, it's eminently doable! (For better or worse)

 

Conditional on me being able to find them in the first place, I can easily take out two vehicles in a moving convoy in a single pass. Easily. And not just easily, but repeatedly and consistently and reliably. Even with organic air defenses (e.g., Osa's). Especially with organic air defenses --- they are the first ones I target.

 

Three vehicles is also definitely possible, and more often than not, but sometimes not as well.

 

Four is pushing it, but can be done.

 

So "exercise in frustration"? Maybe initially. But keep practicing and soon you will be able to do it too. It's a lot of fun, and a nice thrill.

 

Oh gosh, the idea of using FLIR in PTRK for two targets in a row sounds masochistic.

 

Provided you get a point track in the first place which is a completely unreasonable task, the FLIR designation is 1. instantaneous and 2. stationary. That means if you designate FLIR on a moving target it is instantly behind with the distance increasing as time goes on.

 

The AGM is cued to the designation only when that sensor is selected, otherwise it remains at the previous location. Because FLIR has to be selected to designate and MAV has to be selected to redirect the missile to the designation (which is where the target used to be). This alignment requires a constant cycle of three buttons: SCS right to select FLIR, designate, and SCS left to have the missile update to designation.

 

The AGM-65F automatically tracks objects within a small angular region. With a target moving at 10kt at 7nm that gives the track a half life of less than 2 seconds. You can play with this by putting a designated point in front of a moving vehicle and watching the missile go through the cycle of being too far away ahead, flickering between the point ahead and vehicle, tracking vehicle, flickering between the point behind and vehicle, and being too far away behind.

 

Now you can hold TDC and slew the missile, but you can't do it if there's a designated target. Let's assume you FLIR track and designate to get the missile pointing close to where the target used to be you can press undesignate to be able to control the missile to slew it onto the target. Great, but what about the second target? If you fire the next missile will be caged to boresight and since you pressed undesignate before good luck slewing that one to the second target. It's not possible for both missiles to track or even be off caged to boresight simultaneously.

 

The entire exercise is one of frustration.

 

 

[KittyVCAW-1]

Struggled with this all last week. Searched for a few days for some sort of info on the real functionality and couldn't really turn up much beside a few video tutorials. Neither of which mention this issue BTW. It needs to be more clear to users the target designation does not update continuously in p track mode. I Had a convoy running through the forest in a mountain valley. Just locating the convoy is a challenge. I designate the target but would wait to come around the orbit so I could roll into the valley to pickle and not smash into the mountain on the egress. By the time I was ready the target point was so far behind the convoy the IMAV FLIR just showed an empty road. I could not figure out what I was locking up with the TDC. I could see it actively tracking my mover, but IMAV was looking somewhere totally different. It just seemed pointed at like a random point on the map. I was considering making a bug report but couldn't get much attention on the subject from anyone. Once I realized that the target designation isn't live, I'm now able to at least get one shot off per pass. Previous to this knowledge I couldn't even get one shot to rifle so progress was made. But at least now I know I wasn't the only one confused by this.

[Ziptie]

Struggled with this all last week. Searched for a few days for some sort of info on the real functionality and couldn't really turn up much beside a few video tutorials. Neither of which mention this issue BTW. It needs to be more clear to users the target designation does not update continuously in p track mode. I Had a convoy running through the forest in a mountain valley. Just locating the convoy is a challenge. I designate the target but would wait to come around the orbit so I could roll into the valley to pickle and not smash into the mountain on the egress. By the time I was ready the target point was so far behind the convoy the IMAV FLIR just showed an empty road. I could not figure out what I was locking up with the TDC. I could see it actively tracking my mover, but IMAV was looking somewhere totally different. It just seemed pointed at like a random point on the map. I was considering making a bug report but couldn't get much attention on the subject from anyone. Once I realized that the target designation isn't live, I'm now able to at least get one shot off per pass. Previous to this knowledge I couldn't even get one shot to rifle so progress was made. But at least now I know I wasn't the only one confused by this.

 

If you've created the point track, and 30 seconds has passed since creating it - but you still have a point tracking solution - can't you simply TDC depress again to get the maverick seeker head to slew to the most recent position? Seems to work for me...

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

[oldcrusty]

 

If you've created the point track, and 30 seconds has passed since creating it - but you still have a point tracking solution - can't you simply TDC depress again to get the maverick seeker head to slew to the most recent position? Seems to work for me...

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

 

There's always a way to deal with bugs... why not do it right:D

[Ziptie]

 

There's always a way to deal with bugs... why not do it right:D

 

Yeah I don't have an issue with it, works great for me consistently without having to do anything outside of normal procedures - so I was just suggesting something that might work for you. Best of luck!

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

[CougarFFW04]

Hi Everybody,

 

Thanks to all for help and tips BUT did you ever try this recently ?

 

I tried following exactly the suggested procedure on a convoi progressing on a coast road more or less free of anything else

- FLIR tracking easily a vehicle

- Mav Im uncage, FOV small

TDC depress does absolutly nothing.

I am not even speaking about Mav seeker tracking... I mean that the Mav seeker diamond stay exactly at the original place even with repeatydly TDC depress althoug the FLIR is still tracking the vehicle. The only way for me to reset the Mav seeker to the FLIR tracking position is to cage uncage while DCS depress does nothing.

 

I am runing the lastest DCS béta and a friend of mine reported the same behavior.

Can someone try again and report ?

 

Thanks again.

[Frederf]

You have to select FLIR before designating to update the FLIR designation and then reselect MAV for that designation to update the missile LOS. I.e. right screen, designate, left screen, repeat. You shouldn't have to cage-uncage cycle.

[Ziptie]

TDC depress does absolutly nothing.

I am not even speaking about Mav seeker tracking... I mean that the Mav seeker diamond stay exactly at the original place even with repeatydly TDC depress althoug the FLIR is still tracking the vehicle. The only way for me to reset the Mav seeker to the FLIR tracking position is to cage uncage while DCS depress does nothing.

 

Did you SOI FLIR when attempting to TDC depress again, or were you still Maverick SOI? Should be FLIR SOI. I won't be able to fly virtually again until Saturday if I'm lucky - but when I flew last weekend, this worked for me. To be fair, normally I won't TDC depress on any target (stationary or moving) until I have rolled in on my final attack heading so there isn't really a need for me to do this - but it did work when testing it).

 

Regardless, seems that you were able to sort it out so well done!

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

[CougarFFW04]

Thanks Guys

 

I think I did try all possible combination LOL

Will try again and let you know.

[CougarFFW04]

Hi everyone,

 

I come back to you because IMO (but I might be wrong) there is something weird with the TGP and FLIR.

 

First I noticed that it is much more easy to lock and track (PTRK) moving vehicles at larger (less zoom) FLIR FOV than at smaller one (more zooming). That seems strange to me.

 

Now concerning my problem althoug I was able to lock Mav to PTRK target the right sequence is still not clear to me...

The only way to lock the Mav Seeker to the PTRK target is to switch back and forth the SOI Mav/TGP (till it finally works) but the sugested TDC depress sequence does nothing or may be I should wait longer...

 

I am also wondering about the interpretation of the diamond (FLIR center ?) and triangle (MAV seeker) symbols on the HUD. On the attached pictures it is clear that the FLIR is in PTRK mode but the HUD dimand does not reflect the position pointed by the FLIR at all (the vehicles are close to the alpha symbols on the HUD in the FLIRMAV1, take care that pictures are not attached in the right order). Another try (FLIRNAV3 picture) shows the same.

 

I would think that the diamond should be at the tracked vehicle position... Shouldn't it ?

Or is it because of the "not updated position" already discussed ?

 

Comments/ideas ?

 

Thanks

[Recluse]

I haven't messed with movers as much as I should, but here are some thoughts:

 

1 - As in the GAZACE video, the MAVERICK seeker is very prone to locking on to other high contrast targets when it tries to slew over to the Tracked vehicles.

2 - When you get a POINT TRACK, do a TDC DEPRESS so you see the little offset cross in the POINT TRACK. This shows the Point TRK is DESIGNATED. As other posters have said, you may need to update the DESIGNATION throughout the attack run. In one picture it is not there, but I cannot tell in the other.

[CougarFFW04]

Well I tried and tried and tried again well within Mav range, target in front, good tracking (like the attached picture already posted) TDC depress or whatever this does NOT work for me. I really wonder what would prevent the Mav seeker to switch to the tracked vehicle in the attached picture!!! It's very much efficient to take control of Mav head seeker (and then it works) than to use in conjonction with FLIR.

I give up with FLIR/AGM and wait for something that works and not randomly works...

 

Thanks anyway

[oldcrusty]

Well I tried and tried and tried again well within Mav range, target in front, good tracking (like the attached picture already posted) TDC depress or whatever this does NOT work for me. I really wonder what would prevent the Mav seeker to switch to the tracked vehicle in the attached picture!!! It's very much efficient to take control of Mav head seeker (and then it works) than to use in conjonction with FLIR.

I give up with FLIR/AGM and wait for something that works and not randomly works...

 

Thanks anyway

 

Use Mav F's without the pod. Spot the movers visually, point the Mav triangle on the HUD at the targets and maneuver the jet to line up the Mav crosshair (on DDI) with the first target. It will snap to it and lock, if within parameters. No TDC press. Rifle.

The next MavF will be bore sighted:glare: so line up your HUD triangle with the target group and repeat the drill... It's fairly easy to spot them in the dirt with the huge dust cloud following them. In any other setting... good luck.

 

The hopes are up for the next patch.:yawn:

[Bearfoot]

I have to try to use Mav F's without the pod. Though I find it OK with the pod, and maybe for me easier to slew the pod to pick up targets while on a stable glide toward the convoy rather than jiggling the aircraft around. I'm working my way, through practice, to being reliably able to get 3 out of 4 in a single pass. Last night I got a couple of 4/4's, but most others was just 3/4. One bad run had 1/4.

 

- Find convoy through TGP

- Get point track on one vehicle

- TDC depress to get offset cursor

- TDC depress AGAIN to designate and then IMMEDIATELY swtich to Mav format DDI; wait for Maverick to uncage and slew to target designation if needed

- Pickle; if no go, switch back to TGP format and then TDC depress again to "update" target and then switch immediately back to Mav format DDI and pickle. Repeat (TGP->TDC depress->Mav->Pickle) if needed. Many times get it on first try, otherwise usually on second. If it takes more than three, then it's a bad day.

- Release point track and slew to next vehicle; establish point track and rinse and repeat.

 

(p.s. the Hornet never had, and presumably the DCS hornet will never get, triple racks of Mavericks, did it? ... 6/6 would be a nice goal)

[oldcrusty]

I have to try to use Mav F's without the pod. Though I find it OK with the pod, and maybe for me easier to slew the pod to pick up targets while on a stable glide toward the convoy rather than jiggling the aircraft around. I'm working my way, through practice, to being reliably able to get 3 out of 4 in a single pass. Last night I got a couple of 4/4's, but most others was just 3/4. One bad run had 1/4.

 

- Find convoy through TGP

- Get point track on one vehicle

- TDC depress to get offset cursor

- TDC depress AGAIN to designate and then IMMEDIATELY swtich to Mav format DDI; wait for Maverick to uncage and slew to target designation if needed

- Pickle; if no go, switch back to TGP format and then TDC depress again to "update" target and then switch immediately back to Mav format DDI and pickle. Repeat (TGP->TDC depress->Mav->Pickle) if needed. Many times get it on first try, otherwise usually on second. If it takes more than three, then it's a bad day.

- Release point track and slew to next vehicle; establish point track and rinse and repeat.

 

(p.s. the Hornet never had, and presumably the DCS hornet will never get, triple racks of Mavericks, did it? ... 6/6 would be a nice goal)

 

Bearfoot, you're not on the latest OB, are you? The steps you're describing worked great couple of builds ago. (talking about MavF v. movers) Actually, it worked even better 5 or 6 builds before the latest. There was no need for multiple TDC presses, unless the MavF snapped to the wrong target. But... mad cycle continues. Hopefully the devs are on the right track to solve the problem.

[Bunny Clark]

It would be a whole lot simpler if point track actually updated the target location continuously...

 

(p.s. the Hornet never had, and presumably the DCS hornet will never get, triple racks of Mavericks, did it? ... 6/6 would be a nice goal)

Nope. Both the AGM-65E and AGM-65F carried by the Hornet are derived from the heavier AGM-65G, with the large penetrating warhead. Even the USAF only carries these one to a station.