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Full fidelity MiG 29A by ED?


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14 hours ago, draconus said:

If you guys have real life experience or can point to docs/charts that contradict current FM please share it with ED, so they can fix it. Otherwise your post is a poor joke.

And yeah, I know, g-induced damage model is not implemented.

 

Just giving you my impression.  I fly DCS with some rl pilots (some military some civilian) and they also ridicule the F-15.  It hurts because we love the F-15, but we can't respect the FC3 plane, and it's not even because of the simplified avionics.


Edited by gortex
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6 hours ago, gortex said:

I fly DCS with some rl pilots (some military some civilian) and they also ridicule the F-15.

That's cool, but unless they were flying the Eagle and can really help the devs, their opinion belongs here: https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/46-chit-chat/

 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/1/2021 at 3:43 AM, gortex said:

Not sure about the red planes and their FM, but the F-15 flies like an arcade game from the 1980s.

Bullshit!

 

Would love more complete cockpits on both the MiG-29A(C/S) and the F-15C (I even would buy the F-15A if someone did it)! 👍


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10 hours ago, draconus said:

That's cool, but unless they were flying the Eagle and can really help the devs, their opinion belongs here: https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/46-chit-chat/

 

 

You assume a lot. 😉

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On 5/31/2021 at 4:46 AM, Harlikwin said:

 

You are kidding yourself if you think DCS is modeled with any level of fidelity with regards to anything important like sensors. The entire radar simulation lacks even basic MsDos levels of fidelity. Maaaaybe like Aero is vaguely close in a few regards since those charts are available, but any sort of systems modeling is pretty poor.

 

 

This is what I explain !

 

The bogus excuses of "we can't make this aircraft because it's still top secret" is a joke.. DCS is a simulator with a lot of faults, not a carbon copy of an aircraft with real materials. (so a excuse nonsense)

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57 minutes ago, Satarosa said:

This is what I explain !

 

The bogus excuses of "we can't make this aircraft because it's still top secret" is a joke.. DCS is a simulator with a lot of faults, not a carbon copy of an aircraft with real materials. (so a excuse nonsense)

 

Well, there's a running joke that DCS should actually stand for Digital Cockpit Simulator and I can kinda see why. As Harlikwin said it can get pretty poor.

 

I won't name stuff here, but the long and the short of it is there's plenty where DCS falls over on.

 

We know we're never going to get 100% of the way there, but we should IMO, be aiming to be as realistic as feasibly possible.

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On 5/28/2021 at 3:10 PM, Harlikwin said:

 

I have fairly modest expectations of it, I know how the radar works, knobs and all, and have realistic expectations of the IRST. Same for knowing how "hi-tech" the Nav systems are. That being said, I'm looking forward to it, and really, in the context of its day say compared to an early bloc F16A the mig was pretty comparable. Obviously you can't compare it to a 2005 Era Block 50 viper, thats just silly. 

Of course. The F16 would be embarrased if the MiG ever got in close. That is exactly what happened in Germany in the 1990s when the US Navy wanted to put legacy hornets up against the MiG. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Zeagle said:

Of course. The F16 would be embarrased if the MiG ever got in close. That is exactly what happened in Germany in the 1990s when the US Navy wanted to put legacy hornets up against the MiG. 

 

 

Yeah they did the same thing with vipers. The conclusion was, pre aamram mig wins, post aamram F16 wins.

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1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

The conclusion was, pre aamram mig wins, post aamram F16 wins.

Not to mention post JHMCS + AIM-9X, which I'd say more than negates HMS + R-73 advantage in an unrestricted environment.

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21 minutes ago, WinterH said:

Not to mention post JHMCS + AIM-9X, which I'd say more than negates HMS + R-73 advantage in an unrestricted environment.

 

Yeah, thats a whole other thing. But point being that in the 80's the 80's era mig29 was very competitive. 90's onward, predictably less and less so. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Zeagle said:

Yep, but only if they kill the MiG BVR.

 

 

Yup, which was likely back then... Of course in the mid80's it was the other way around.

 

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On 6/11/2021 at 8:17 PM, Zeagle said:

Yep, but only if they kill the MiG BVR.

 

Don't necessarily need to kill the whole flight of MiGs just whittle it down so that when and if the merge happens, the MiGs are outnumbered, and or already defensive. Then the higher performance up close, is not as relevant.

 

Spammers can give you just that little bit of an edge going in to the merge and usually that's all it takes with all aspect SRMs and above.

On 6/11/2021 at 8:44 PM, Harlikwin said:

 

Yup, which was likely back then... Of course in the mid80's it was the other way around.

 

I'm very interested to see how the FF MiG stacks up to the actual 1980s era jet we have in DCS. Personally in the A cat I have a really hard time with the FC3 29A as it is. Phoenix is not Amraam and anyone that has spent any amount of time dodging the latter knows how to pretty much turn that missile off, and realistically with fox1 and 2s I think the MiG has pretty a firm advantage over the tomcat.


Edited by Wizard_03
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DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer:

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7 minutes ago, Wizard_03 said:

Don't necessarily need to kill the whole flight of MiGs just whittle it down so that when and if the merge happens, the MiGs are outnumbered, and or already defensive. Then the higher performance up close, is not as relevant.

 

Spammers can give you just that little bit of an edge going in to the merge and usually that's all it takes with all aspect SRMs and above.

I'm very interested to see how the FF MiG stacks up to the actual 1980s era jet we have in DCS. Personally in the A cat I have a really hard time with the FC3 29A as it is. 

 

Yeah if the 29 lives to the merge, mr f14 has a good chance at having a very bad day. 

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First Mig-29 first versions 9.12 and 9.13 were made for a front line defensive job. Mig-29 was ready to take off and landing from roads. That will be his natural scenery for 9.12 and 9.13 versions. Of course the aircraft will become more multi tasking with the next generation but that never happen cuz the URSS Collapse. Now we can see more very capable Mig-29M and Mig-29K with better BVR.

 

F-14 in a Face to Face against Big bombers probably have some chances to use Aim-54. Irak used very well the ECM against the Aim-54 and the result was ground the F-14 because the Aim-54 against fast moving target with countermeasures was just useless. and they didn’t have the option for more of those missiles. 
 

You gonna find some funny stories from Iran side. But… hey that was just that. 

Talking about real tactics in DCS. You set a bunch of Mig-29 spread around the battlefield in DCS for take off scramble and the F’s fan Boys will cry the night long because they will not understand such tactics in a fighter. But they are real because this aircraft was build with that in mind. 


 

 


Edited by pepin1234

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33 minutes ago, pepin1234 said:

First Mig-29 first versions 9.12 and 9.13 were made for a front line defensive job. Mig-29 was ready to take off and landing from roads. That will be his natural scenery for 9.12 and 9.13 versions. Of course the aircraft will become more multi tasking with the next generation but that never happen cuz the URSS Collapse. Now we can see more very capable Mig-29M and Mig-29K with better BVR.

 

F-14 in a Face to Face against Big bombers probably have some chances to use Aim-54. Irak used very well the ECM against the Aim-54 and the result was ground the F-14 because the Aim-54 against fast moving target with countermeasures was just useless. and they didn’t have the option for more of those missiles. 
 

You gonna find some funny stories from Iran side. But… hey that was just that. 

Talking about real tactics in DCS. You set a bunch of Mig-29 spread around the battlefield in DCS for take off scramble and the F’s fan Boys will cry the night long because they will not understand such tactics in a fighter. But they are real because this aircraft was build with that in mind. 


 

 

 

 

Well the issue with the mig-29 is does the mig get the actual GCI, and datalinks that it would have had IRL. Thats among the biggest problems in DCS. The "environment" the planes work in is extremely underdeveloped. In a real mig29 the enemy wouldn't see you on their RWR till 5 seconds before he got shot because the mig would come in, radar off, guided by GCI, who would tell him turn on radar now, and the target should be there, in range, so lock, shoot, kill. Evade. And with even an older datalink like lazur you have those commands popping up on the hud, to include a hud symbol of where to look for the target.


Edited by Harlikwin
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6 hours ago, pepin1234 said:

F-14 in a Face to Face against Big bombers probably have some chances to use Aim-54. Irak used very well the ECM against the Aim-54 and the result was ground the F-14 because the Aim-54 against fast moving target with countermeasures was just useless. and they didn’t have the option for more of those missiles.

Equally cool stories as from Iranians.

 

6 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Well the issue with the mig-29 is does the mig get the actual GCI, and datalinks that it would have had IRL. Thats among the biggest problems in DCS. The "environment" the planes work in is extremely underdeveloped. In a real mig29 the enemy wouldn't see you on their RWR till 5 seconds before he got shot because the mig would come in, radar off, guided by GCI, who would tell him turn on radar now, and the target should be there, in range, so lock, shoot, kill. Evade. And with even an older datalink like lazur you have those commands popping up on the hud, to include a hud symbol of where to look for the target.

That could work for a single hunt on a lone fighter and you can already do that in DCS with russian AWACS or EWR.

When you are against a CAP they work a search with their radars and also have heir own AWACS for support. Not much room for surprises here.

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3 hours ago, draconus said:

Equally cool stories as from Iranians.

 

That could work for a single hunt on a lone fighter and you can already do that in DCS with russian AWACS or EWR.

When you are against a CAP they work a search with their radars and also have heir own AWACS for support. Not much room for surprises here.

 

Not 100% sure, but from 1999 encounter of 2 F-15Cs and 2 MiG-29s it appears that AWACS has tough time picking up targets that are close to the ground. 

The Fulcrums, according to the flight leader, were deliberately flying low (<= 50m height) and close to the ground in order to avoid being picked up by the AWACS.
This seems to have worked, as from the F-15C testimony the MiGs were picked up by AWACS after they climbed to 7.000m or so. 

 

MiG-29 Pilot / F-15C Pilot:

 


Edited by Cmptohocah

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Those Mig-29 were armed with R-60 missiles. That was literally an unbalanced fight. URSS didn’t delivery the Migs with A-A weapons because the war with Iran. With R-73 or R-27T that pilot will not tell the Story. 
 

All Mig-29 downed never did Radar use with radar guided missiles or BVR missiles. They always were in huge inferiority because operational conditions or lack of weapons. That was the result of URSS break down. All production was stopped.


Edited by pepin1234

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MiG-29A -> 1982-1983

AIM-9M/AIM-7M -> 1982-1984

 

Su-27 with ER/ET -> 1987-1990

AIM-120A -> 1991

R-77 (for export Su-27) -> 1994

AIM-120B -> 1994

 

Su-30MKK -> 1998

AIM-120C5 -> 1998-2001

AIM-9X -> 2003

Su-30MKI and Su-30MK2 -> 2003-2005

DCS: F-18C variant -> 2004

DCS: F-16C variant -> 2007

MiG-29M and MiG-29K -> 2008-2009

R-77-1 for MiG-29M and MiG-29K -> 2012-2015

 

Adding the MiG-29A to DCS will be equivalent to bringing a BF-109 against MiG-21s and F-4s. Sure, if they have a stroke mid-flight, you may be able to kill them.


Edited by Max1mus
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When ED reworks russian missiles:
 


(April 2021 update)

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Guys. Mig-29A still can do his job. The problem is in your tactics. We know is is a 84s technology against much modern technology then your move is go different way the enemy expect. 
 

that was the mistake of Serbians. I just don’t understand very well why they were sent that way with such avionics malfunction. What I guess they were not well informed about the weapons capability on the other side. 
 

see the Serbian pilot in that video telling that was a crazy move and other tactics could have better results (too late)

 

Min 43:34 they are declaring the bad strategy they did. The bad orders, the bad organization… they, the pilots tell you that and Also tell the way to do it right. Also there are some interviews that pilot said AWACS were not detecting them in low flight.

 

 


Edited by pepin1234
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In DCS, low flight will not protect you from AWACS detection. Not that it matters anyway, given that the blue fighters have radars that are more than capable to entirely scan the airspace in front of and below them.

Send some AI MiG-29A against 2 AI Hornets with 120C and 9X. The result was: The AI MiGs need a numbers advantage of ~5:1 to win (taking heavy losses along the way).

Compare that to my previous BF-109 vs MiG-21 example. The 2 planes are also 20-25 years apart. Again, only with a numbers advantage of ~5:1 can they push the MiGs away with some hits, again with heavy losses.


It offers nothing new. Unless the target has practically no air defenses, it has no secondary roles apart from the Air to Air one. Which it will miserably fail at in DCS, mostly due to the reason described above, but also because EDs double standard with russian weapons. Dont waste your time.

Now, a package of the full fidelity, old soviet MiG, and a medium fidelity, modern MiG with good missiles would be a whole different story. 2 planes = Instant 200$ purchase from me. Sounds fair. Let the casual guys play with the switches, and the air combat guys play with the AMRAAMs.


Edited by Max1mus

When ED reworks russian missiles:
 


(April 2021 update)

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Vietnam was with the same inferiority in technology and they managed to get victories using the brain. As you can see In the Yugoslavia wars and Irak the Air actions were not so smart. Not because it is only my opinion but the video above show the pilots telling that too.

 

If you are in Disadvantage the response to your enemy should be what he is not expecting and make traps to direct him to the place you want.

 

there are still some real way to direct an attack to a fake SAM site and ambush the enemy from roads take off.

 

The deal is make your own server and put your ideas in a Server. Seem that is a economic issue that only Fan boys enjoy. they want to use you as a toy to have fun with you on his way. 


Edited by pepin1234
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2 hours ago, Max1mus said:

It offers nothing new. Unless the target has practically no air defenses, it has no secondary roles apart from the Air to Air one. Which it will miserably fail at in DCS, mostly due to the reason described above, but also because EDs double standard with russian weapons. Dont waste your time.

Luckily aircraft in DCS are not modeled to increase your kill count. They are to simulate the aircraft. If you don't find the fun in flying current 29A you probably won't like HiFi version either.

Thinking only about throwing it against every possible aircraft in MP is a bit narrow minded.

You can make real scanarios from 80s where 29 is a new formidable weapon in its intended role. Or you can make 90s and 2000s scenarios where the red was the disadvantaged side. You can also play some fictional scenarios against inferior opponent. The options are there and that is DCS for. No one forces you to take 29A against modern Blue fighters.

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5 hours ago, pepin1234 said:

...that was the mistake of Serbians. I just don’t understand very well why they were sent that way with such avionics malfunction. What I guess they were not well informed about the weapons capability on the other side. 

 


The decision to go up in the air was mostly political in nature. The commanders didn't really care if the pilots will come back or not (actually mentioned by one of the pilots).
Sending people into combat without functional radars and/or RWRs, just goes to show how mindless was to issue an order to go up against F-15s and F-16s. Not to mention that the GCIs had no idea which planes were friendly and which were aggressors. All in all, there were nothing more than flying targets, most of the time. 

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