Jump to content

Where is our updates? (Mini Rant)


Recommended Posts

This is going to be a mini rant about the updates that need to be done to the hornet that are very critical, that are simply just not being done... I am sick of sitting here and taking my time to meticulously write out a good report about a bug I have found, that is very noticeable might I add, to it just being swept under the carpet. For example. I made a post on 9/23/2019 about a piece of the flap on the hornet not animated and causes it to stick out when flaps are down. It's a lod issue. I even told them how to fix it. IT HAS BEEN OVER A YEAR AND NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE. SERIOUSLY?! That's not even the worst of it. Remember the reverse ground effect (the thing that pulls you into the ground if you get too close)? Yeah that still exist and it has been an issue since release in 2018. Like come on now. Another issue is when you try to takeoff with the flaps up, your aircraft will constantly pull nose up forever, until you go to half flap then back to full (I will be making a report soon about this). There is another bug that I have observed that is critical but I am still working to debug it so I won't post about it. But like for god's sake ED. Please fix this stuff. I absolutely love the sim and love flying in it because it is the most realistic sim out there. But it's hard when there is no progress of the bugs being fix. Thanks for taking the time to read and I hope this doesn't get swept under the carpet too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dude, chill. Nothing gets swept under the carpet, even if some stuff takes strangely long to fix while it seems to be an easy thing to fix. Still: stop backseat moderating their workflow, file bug reports and wait. There is literally little else you can do, since working yourself up about it will not speed up bug fixing one bit.

i7 - 9700K | 32 GB DDR4 3200 | RTX 2080 | VKB Gunfighter Mk II /w MCG Pro | Virpil T-50CM2 Throttle | TrackIR 5 | VKB Mk. IV

 

AJS-37 | A/V-8B | A-10C | F-14A/B | F-16C | F-18C | F-86F | FC3 | JF-17 | Ka-50 | L-39 | Mi-8 | MiG-15bis | MiG-19 | MiG-21bis | M2000-C | P-51D | Spitfire LF Mk. IX | UH-1H

Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome to [Early Access - Under Development] -process.

 

It is a constantly livin TO-DO list system, that is not based to time when a error in software product is found, but after analyzing and evaluation the bug is assigned a multi-level severity value, and then assigned to an responsible developer/team.

 

In the time the priority ones gets solved first, but some problems gets pushed back in schedule waiting something else, and some minor ones gets pushed between because there is time to handle it as well someone is already doing something relative to it.

 

Bugs are getting fixed and they are being worked on, that is why it is nice that months ago moderators started to mark the discussion/bug reports thread topics with [ ] markings to inform people that what is the status.

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • ED Team
This is going to be a mini rant about the updates that need to be done to the hornet that are very critical, that are simply just not being done... I am sick of sitting here and taking my time to meticulously write out a good report about a bug I have found, that is very noticeable might I add, to it just being swept under the carpet. For example. I made a post on 9/23/2019 about a piece of the flap on the hornet not animated and causes it to stick out when flaps are down. It's a lod issue. I even told them how to fix it. IT HAS BEEN OVER A YEAR AND NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE. SERIOUSLY?! That's not even the worst of it. Remember the reverse ground effect (the thing that pulls you into the ground if you get too close)? Yeah that still exist and it has been an issue since release in 2018. Like come on now. Another issue is when you try to takeoff with the flaps up, your aircraft will constantly pull nose up forever, until you go to half flap then back to full (I will be making a report soon about this). There is another bug that I have observed that is critical but I am still working to debug it so I won't post about it. But like for god's sake ED. Please fix this stuff. I absolutely love the sim and love flying in it because it is the most realistic sim out there. But it's hard when there is no progress of the bugs being fix. Thanks for taking the time to read and I hope this doesn't get swept under the carpet too.

 

 

Hi

 

Early access can be frustrating for some we know, if you have not been paying attention you will see here we have been making progress

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=194412&page=20

 

192 mini update posts in that thread so far and more to come.

 

Development is tough, we can not wish work to be complete, it takes hard work and time.

 

Early access is a long process, and it does not suit everyone we know, if early access is not something you enjoy please wait and purchase once out of early access, you will still be supporting us and we appreciate it. For those who do use early access and especially those who post bug reports your participation makes the hornet even better.

 

Thank you

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would strongly agree with the OP. There's some absolutely deal-breaker basic FM bugs from day of release and yet we keep getting new weapons, pods or whatever before some of this super basic stuff gets fixed. It's extremely annoying.

 

The one I absolutely despise is the nose wobble side-to-side. Any hard reversal of aileron controls from one side to the other causes the nose to yaw side-to-side. This is clearly a critical issue related to flying the aircraft. Why are we getting new weapons and systems before something super basic like this to actually fly the plane gets fixed? It's so frustrating because it really ruins the immersion of actually flying the plane. And it's been reported many times before. Nothing has been done. And it's not exactly a hard fix.

 

The one as the OP mentioned about takeoff with no flaps causing an un-commanded pitch up till infinity is also extremely frustrating. It basically means yo can rule out doing an airshow display takeoff in the Hornet completely. Again an absolutely basic fundamental FM issue that would not be hard to fix at all.

 

The reason it's so frustrating is that these little things are really all that separates this from being an incredible piece of simulation from being a really frustrating experience at times. And some of them have been reported millions of times. ED is still focused on updating weapons and systems instead of getting a few critical FM bugs fixed. Real shame.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi

 

Early access can be frustrating for some we know, if you have not been paying attention you will see here we have been making progress

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=194412&page=20

 

192 mini update posts in that thread so far and more to come.

 

Development is tough, we can not wish work to be complete, it takes hard work and time.

 

Early access is a long process, and it does not suit everyone we know, if early access is not something you enjoy please wait and purchase once out of early access, you will still be supporting us and we appreciate it. For those who do use early access and especially those who post bug reports your participation makes the hornet even better.

 

Thank you

 

I 100% appreciate that EA means you don't get the full thing out of the box. That's fine. What's concerning is that absolutely basic bugs related to flying the plane have not been addressed in favour of weapons and systems updates. This creates the impression that these basic FM issues will actually never get looked at because using any normal logic, basic FM bugs (which are SUPER obvious) should eradicated well before adding new complex systems that actually take time and effort.

 

Just for clarity, I'm not having a rant at you or the team. I've invested lots of my money in your products and will support you all the way. I'm just extremely frustrated that basic stuff isn't fixed before new features.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • ED Team

Hi

 

we spend a lot of time reporting the issues and the team are fixing as many as they can, some issues are harder than others or maybe waiting for new code before they can be merged.

Flight model issues like the sucked into ground effect issue has been a difficult one, but I have tested a tweak recently and I am hopeful it will be in public builds soon.

 

thanks

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure taking off with no flaps and getting pitch increase is a bug. I thought the accepted method is to always use half flaps. That cures the problem but i'm not sure if it's realistic?

Buzz

Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not sure taking off with no flaps and getting pitch increase is a bug. I thought the accepted method is to always use half flaps. That cures the problem but i'm not sure if it's realistic?

 

This video will show you that it is realistic to takeoff without flaps and after doing this takeoff for ~2 years, it is almost impossible in DCS. There are some work arounds (moving flaps to half then back up just as your pitching back), but we shouldnt have to do that. Like CommandT said, its not hard to fix these things, ED has just been focusing on weapon features and combat related things instead of fixing the fundamentals of the plane; instead of making it fly like the real thing. CommandT also brought up the nose wobble after rolling while G is on the aircraft.

This video also shows perfectly that that should not happen, and yet it does. There is no wobble of the aircraft in that video, and that isnt even the Super Hornet, its the same airframe. The problem that is being discussed here is that ED has "Update flight model for ground effect, takeoff pitch effects, auto-pilot based on FPM, touch and go handling, and other remaining flight model issues" #17 on their priority list. These things should have been done before any weapon upgrade came out, its literally the flight model to fly the damn thing, its not wizardry, its fixing a bug thats been neglected because they want to focus on weapons instead of fixing their aircraft. Like OP said, I also love this game and I have put lots of money into it, so all I want is a proper Hornet that flies like the real thing.
Link to post
Share on other sites
The BA uses a clean plane. I wonder if that's why they don't need flaps? I'd like to read officially how we should take off with a combat load.

 

With flaps obviously. That's not the point though. The plane does demos with flaps up takeoffs. Even if it was not a real life procedure, it shouldn't result in an unstoppable nose up motion on takeoff.

 

Also, the real aircraft does knife edge at airshow. The DCS Hornet at any speed will not have enough rudder authority to do this. It's not so much a bug as a flaw of the flight dynamics models, that again, should be fixed before any new weapons.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

With flaps obviously. That's not the point though. The plane does demos with flaps up takeoffs. Even if it was not a real life procedure, it shouldn't result in an unstoppable nose up motion on takeoff.

 

Also, the real aircraft does knife edge at airshow. The DCS Hornet at any speed will not have enough rudder authority to do this. It's not so much a bug as a flaw of the flight dynamics models, that again, should be fixed before any new weapons.

 

We don't know what kind of mods an airshow plane has. I wouldn't use them as an example.

 

 

Buzz

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

We don't know what kind of mods an airshow plane has. I wouldn't use them as an example.

 

 

Yes, we do know what mods an airshow plane has, and that doesnt affect the flight model, especially not pulling back constantly until flaps are put to half then up. There are no changes to the flight control system, only 1 modification to the physical stick, with that being a spring but that does not affect the actual hydraulics, it simply pulls the stick forward. The thing we are talking about is the aircraft will not nose down unless the flaps are put to half and then back up, which does not happen in the real aircraft, but thats just 1 issue. CommandT also brought up the rudder authority which has been another massive complaint. The rudder feels like it has no control over the aircraft at all, which makes doing the knife-edge pass a nightmare because sometimes it feels like youre sinking much faster than you should, and if you use rudder then it causes yet another issue: the nose wobble, which again should not happen in the real aircraft.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Y'all whine if updates don't come fast enough but y'all also when updates get released buggy. Speed comes at the expense of quality and vice versa.

 

No, not at all. The complaint here is about DAY 1 stuff that should have been worked out before features released, not about updates bringing bugs. We fully understand that updates will bring bugs, but these things about the flight model have been issues since the plane released 2 years ago, and I can go back and find you all of the features, such as JDAMs and the litening pod, that have been released and are finished or almost finished while the base flight model of the aircraft isnt even complete. The Hornet obviously has the most work done on it, so the question is: why havent these basic things been completed yet? Again, not a complaint about a feature bug, a complaint about the flight model not being finished when features have come out and worked on for 2 years. And thats not even mentioning the fact that these flight model issues have been reported numerous times and have been swept under the rug. I mean, like I mentioned earlier, ED had put the flight model update as #17 on their list (Since been changed to #6), but the point being made is that this is not even the correct way the aircraft flies, so why is it not #1. Shouldnt they perfect the actual flight model of the airframe before making things like AG radar and Datalink? I think that ED can improve their list of priorities to fixing the base things first, and making the aircraft fly correctly, especially for people who prefer the aerobatic side instead of combat, like myself, OP, and I'm going to assume CommandT (correct me if I'm wrong, but thats the vibe I'm getting).

Edited by Ryan3469
Link to post
Share on other sites

Massive whining about new features and updates became something common in DCS community. People expect them like gifts for Christmas because they’re free and they’re new - what’s not to like?

and the reason for that is because many people can’t find anything else to focus on when they play DCS. Just a few have fun playing online, another few buy campaigns but those don’t last long. If you can’t find your own toys in DCS sandbox, you only have some missions from User Files with different levels of quality.

Games like that, with endless gameplay, rely on fresh content every 2 weeks, month or so, on things to focus on. That’s just today’s reality.

 

Perhaps it could be fixed in some way by giving the community fresh missions to fly, created by dedicated team, with a certain level of quality, voice-overs, music clips. We would get more patches but not with new features, but with content to actually use the features we got last time, a reason to play, to have fun with DCS. Cause now I’m sure some people have already forgot about Mavs, Harms, AGradar and they’re just waiting for another official YT Video.

Im sure it would be possible to find such a good creators within our community and not giving ED another task. Only the ME should be updated with some new objects, new skins, a few more voice overs to make the mission more fresh and diverse.

ED and 3rd party can push as many modules as possible but it will never be enough, there will always be shouting for more, for new. But new module takes a few years to make, a good mission takes a few days to make. I am pretty much sure they would keep many people occupied from ranting about delayed updates.

it would be enough to start with “weekly featured” user files mission?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Yes, we do know what mods an airshow plane has, and that doesnt affect the flight model, especially not pulling back constantly until flaps are put to half then up. There are no changes to the flight control system, only 1 modification to the physical stick, with that being a spring but that does not affect the actual hydraulics, it simply pulls the stick forward. The thing we are talking about is the aircraft will not nose down unless the flaps are put to half and then back up, which does not happen in the real aircraft, but thats just 1 issue. CommandT also brought up the rudder authority which has been another massive complaint. The rudder feels like it has no control over the aircraft at all, which makes doing the knife-edge pass a nightmare because sometimes it feels like youre sinking much faster than you should, and if you use rudder then it causes yet another issue: the nose wobble, which again should not happen in the real aircraft.

 

I was intrigued by this since I've never done the takeoff with the flaps up, so I did it. Yep, it causes a huge pitch up that can be cured by flap cycling. I even tried zeroing the stabs before t/o, no difference.

What did make the difference was landing w/o flaps before taking off w/o flaps. I looked at FCS page on short final and the LEFs were at 11, TEFs at 12. I held the stick back to stay in the bracket then touched down at around 185knots. I used the airbrake throughout the approach and rollout. Stopped midfield.

As soon as the mains hit the runway, the LEFs and TEFs were zeroed which I think is correct but the STABs were at 7 NU. Without touching anything I pushed the throttles into full AB (well, no airbrake:D) and lifted off at 195. When gear started coming up I was already at 260 knots. But... no pitch-up!

As far as wobble after roll (with low fuel) - still there. Also, when banking close to 90 deg. with high G load (7.5 or 8.0) the VV drops down almost at the same rate as if I was at 1 or 2 G. but I was told by some folks on these forums that that's normal. OK then...

Hopefully it won't take too long for ED to straighten up few things, especially with FCS. I also hope that they have enough material to work with.:book:

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I was intrigued by this since I've never done the takeoff with the flaps up, so I did it. Yep, it causes a huge pitch up that can be cured by flap cycling. I even tried zeroing the stabs before t/o, no difference.

What did make the difference was landing w/o flaps before taking off w/o flaps. I looked at FCS page on short final and the LEFs were at 11, TEFs at 12. I held the stick back to stay in the bracket then touched down at around 185knots. I used the airbrake throughout the approach and rollout. Stopped midfield.

As soon as the mains hit the runway, the LEFs and TEFs were zeroed which I think is correct but the STABs were at 7 NU. Without touching anything I pushed the throttles into full AB (well, no airbrake:D) and lifted off at 195. When gear started coming up I was already at 260 knots. But... no pitch-up!

As far as wobble after roll (with low fuel) - still there. Also, when banking close to 90 deg. with high G load (7.5 or 8.0) the VV drops down almost at the same rate as if I was at 1 or 2 G. but I was told by some folks on these forums that that's normal. OK then...

Hopefully it won't take too long for ED to straighten up few things, especially with FCS. I also hope that they have enough material to work with.:book:

 

Thank you for doing an in-depth analysis, or rather providing proof of it. To respond to your last comment, you can reference this: ___ its the NATOPS manual of the A/C variants, and if you reference figure 2-9A, you can also see another thing that needs some work: the FCS hydraulics on startup.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I would strongly agree with the OP. There's some absolutely deal-breaker basic FM bugs from day of release and yet we keep getting new weapons, pods or whatever before some of this super basic stuff gets fixed. It's extremely annoying.

 

The one I absolutely despise is the nose wobble side-to-side. Any hard reversal of aileron controls from one side to the other causes the nose to yaw side-to-side. This is clearly a critical issue related to flying the aircraft. Why are we getting new weapons and systems before something super basic like this to actually fly the plane gets fixed? It's so frustrating because it really ruins the immersion of actually flying the plane. And it's been reported many times before. Nothing has been done. And it's not exactly a hard fix.

 

The one as the OP mentioned about takeoff with no flaps causing an un-commanded pitch up till infinity is also extremely frustrating. It basically means yo can rule out doing an airshow display takeoff in the Hornet completely. Again an absolutely basic fundamental FM issue that would not be hard to fix at all.

 

The reason it's so frustrating is that these little things are really all that separates this from being an incredible piece of simulation from being a really frustrating experience at times. And some of them have been reported millions of times. ED is still focused on updating weapons and systems instead of getting a few critical FM bugs fixed. Real shame.

 

9 women cannot make a baby in a month, perhaps some of the fixes are being worked on by the best they have whilst the tea boy and work experience girls are making weapons?

Link to post
Share on other sites

i also share the view that the flight model should always come first, before implementing more avionics systems, and definitely before working on any weapons.

 

zero flaps take-off and rudder authority have already been mentioned. and maybe power approach behavior should also be reviewed.

 

no rant, no whining either, just a statement : )

 

cheers

hilok

Link to post
Share on other sites

To respond:

- it's early access

- Did you see the thread about "priorities to be addressed" for the F18? I assume that you did, but might have forgotten about it

- Did you also miss the update a few months ago, where ED stopped the usual two week timeline and have been heavily cracking down on outstanding bugs since. So it you do have a genuine issue, chances are that it's in the hit list

 

In short, be patient and in the meantime, enjoy what is still the only credible jet fighter sim around.

System: 9700, 64GB DDR4, 2070S, NVME2, Rift S, Jetseat, Thrustmaster F18 grip, VPC T50 stick base and throttle, CH Throttle, MFG crosswinds, custom button box, Logitech G502 and Marble mouse.

Server: i5 2500@3.9Ghz, 1080, 24GB DDR3, SSD.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to echo those sentiments that aircraft systems, flight model and performance should ALWAYS be completed first.

 

I would go as far to say - that no middle should be released into EA until it is a “production ready” aircraft.

 

Specific weapon systems, can be added over time - as is practise in real life.

 

The aircraft though - NEEDS to be done 1st.

 

Who gives a crap about adding a new gadget if there are flaws in the base aircraft.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep in mind that Wags said DCS F-18 is not entirely accurate to protect RL OPS. All problems you report might be intentional.

Do not expect fairness.

The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.

Link to post
Share on other sites
To respond:

- it's early access

- Did you see the thread about "priorities to be addressed" for the F18? I assume that you did, but might have forgotten about it

- Did you also miss the update a few months ago, where ED stopped the usual two week timeline and have been heavily cracking down on outstanding bugs since. So it you do have a genuine issue, chances are that it's in the hit list

 

In short, be patient and in the meantime, enjoy what is still the only credible jet fighter sim around.

 

I'll follow your format:

 

To respond:

- It's been in early access for 2 YEARS. Thats not a short amount of time and plenty of needless features have come out before the baseline fixes. Even the startup hydraulic sequence is wrong (I referenced this up there ^ in the NATOPS manual)

- Yes, I specifically pointed out their list and the updated one. The first one, the FM changes and corrections were #17 on the list, and the updated one it is #6 right below a bunch more needless features. The basic flight model of the aircraft, ya know, to actually fly the thing, should be #1, not #6 let alone #17.

- Yes I did and I'm glad that they are continuing to work on it, but it has been an extremely long time (2 years) since this aircraft released and these "bugs" have been there since day 1. They waited 2 years to confront their mistake and then put it #6 on the priority list. Thats the complaint being made, its not that we arent getting updates, its that ED has their priorities wrong with what they are updating. I fully understand if work is being done on it, but releasing a priority list where the 2 year old bug fix is lower than new features that dont contribute to even flying the aircraft seems very very wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...