DCS 2000s scenarios for F-16 and F-18 impossible

[Max1mus]

1xF18vsRussia.zip

I tried to recreate the Russian main Airbase in Syria, using the 80s equipment DCS offers instead of the modern systems that are required.

 

The result - A single F-18 on its own with no AWACS or any other support:

- Shoots down 4x the best russian fighters offered in DCS, early 90s SU-30

- Only a few minutes later destroys the entirety of the Airbase and the best russian available air defenses in DCS, early 80s SA-15 and S-300

 

All in the same sortie, no tactics needed.

 

 

When will ED fix the red coalition and provide a realistic opponent for F-16 and F-18 owners? For singleplayer, at the very least, we need late 2000s assets for the AI, both in terms of fighters and air defenses, though i recommend to include 2010s assets to provide a challenge for experienced players.

We also need all missiles to be modelled to the same standard, including R-27s which have still not gone through the CFD research one year after the AIM-120s and two years after the AIM-7.

And for MP, we need some sort of flyable late 2000s+ fighter for the red side, at least modelled to FC3 standard, all popular servers just consist of NATO vs NATO boredom.

[bies]

In order not to write back over and over again, man need to establish some fixed, unchanging framework to even start any discussion:

 

//There is no moden Russian plane and ED is stating time and time again in nearly every interview they are not able (not allowed) to make one and they do not plan to make one. Period.//

 

Only accepting this fixed point we can start considering other options. Banging a head against the wall crying childishly "but gib modern Russian rest is useless" is completely pointless. And counterproductive diluting the discussion and other options.

 

 

I proposed one clear option in another topic which is available and possible: 1980s F-14, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29, Su-27, A-10, Su-25, Mi-24, Apache, Mirage 2000, Viggen etc. - all possible to model, even if temporarly some of them as FC3 standard only, and some like 1980s MiG-29 9.12 or Su-27S at the verge of not being possible/allowed - fighting each other in symmetric scenario like 1980s war in Europe, with realistic enviromet, AI planes, SAM systems, radars, ground assets, ships etc.

 

I would be pleased to hear some other, realistic - not just whining or wishful thinking, solutions.

Edited October 19, 2020 by bies

[Katj]

In order not to write back over and over again, man need to establish some fixed, unchanging framework to even start any discussion:

 

//There is no moden Russian plane and ED is stating time and time again in nearly every interview they are not able (not allowed) to make one and they do not plan to make one. Period.//

 

Only accepting this fixed point we can start considering other options. Banging a head against the wall crying childishly "but gib modern Russian rest is useless" is completely pointless. And counterproductive diluting the discussion and other options.

 

 

I proposed one clear option in another topic which is available and possible: 1980s F-14, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29, Su-27, A-10, Su-25, Mi-24, Apache, Mirage 2000, Viggen etc. - all possible to model, even if temporarly some of them as FC3 standard only, and some like 1980s MiG-29 9.12 or Su-27S at the verge of not being possible/allowed - fighting each other in symmetric scenario like 1980s war in Europe, with realistic enviromet, AI planes, SAM systems, radars, ground assets, ships etc.

 

I would be pleased to hear some other, realistic - not just whining or wishful thinking, solutions.

 

What we really need is something like:

DCS WW2

DCS Korea

DCS Vietnam

DCS 80's

 

It would have been great if ED would have done a 1988 Hornet, a 1988 Viper, and told third party developers e.g. "You can make any F-14 you want, as long as it is a 1988"

 

The apparent problem with this approach, apart from the fact that ED and third party developers have spent a lot of money developing systems that wouldn't fit in the scenario, is that the kids wouldn't get any fox 3's and I don't know if they'll pay for that.

 

Though fox 1 combat is more challenging and fun, imo. More often results in great dogfights, too.

[bies]

What we really need is something like:

DCS WW2

DCS Korea

DCS Vietnam

DCS 80's

Though fox 1 combat is more challenging and fun, imo. More often results in great dogfights, too.

 

Agree

 

It would have been great if ED would have done a 1988 Hornet, a 1988 Viper (...)

 

Agree 100%

 

"You can make any F-14 you want, as long as it is a 1988"

The apparent problem with this approach, apart from the fact that ED and third party developers have spent a lot of money developing systems that wouldn't fit in the scenario, is that the kids wouldn't get any fox 3's and I don't know if they'll pay for that.

 

3rd paries are smaller issue here F-14, Viggen, Mirage 2000 etc. are 1980s/1990s variants.

[Harker]

With the exception of player controlled modules, ED can certainly include more modern Russian tech, the Su-34, which entered service in 2014, being a good example. As for other assets, such as SAM sites and the like, all necessary info is publicly available and will allow for a good enough representation to the extent that a pilot in the cockpit is concerned. So it's not a question of information and licensing, that only applies to player controlled and/or high fidelity stuff.

 

The missile improvements were a very good point made by the OP and we would all like to have them sooner rather than later. But they're coming.

 

So the above would be a good start.

 

Also, I'd like to point out that not everyone who likes modern aircraft is a kid and there is much more to the Hornet we currently than the AMRAAMs it carries. For me, for example, it's the sensors and sensor integration that do it. Modules should not be seen as weapons platforms alone.

 

I know that a lot of the underlying tech needed for modern systems is oversimplified in DCS, but enough public information exists for it to be modeled to a good degree. Modules based on modern aircraft help push DCS's technologies and APIs forward. It's up to ED to develop the underlying tech for them, which they do. DCS is an ever-growing product and for something to become a reality in 5 years, it needs to start being developed now.

 

I like late Cold War aircraft, scenarios and bad FOX1 missiles that lead to exciting WVR fights as much as the next guy, but they're nothing new and they won't bring any new capabilities.

[Tom Kazansky]

@OP Just out of curiosity: If you exchange those russian assets and planes by the modern US/blue force ones, is your mission getting very much harder? No offence, I really don't know, but am only wondering.

[Qiou87]

Although I do agree that AI opponents of the same generation to our high-fidelity NATO planes are needed and would be a great addition, I reject the fact that current assets cannot make for a challenging single-player experience to a F-16 or F/A-18.

 

As an example: I am currently playing a DCS Liberation campaign in the Golan Heights. Israel vs. Syria, I picked modern assets. Liberation spawns a huge ADS for Syria with 3 S-300s, and multiple SA-6, SA-8 and SA-11 protecting their bases. Add a multitude of Mig-29s, Mig-25s and Mig-23s and its no walk in the park, even after 8 sorties my CAS is still unable to reliably operate over the battlefield. Of course, one single SAM system is easy to defeat, but what if the systems are close together? In my case it has been a huge challenge to take down those SA-10s, especially since they shoot down HARMs easily. And a great sense of accomplishment when I successfully took them down in different sorties, each time coming low and fast to drop CBU-97 on them.

 

So yeah, modern assets are needed from a single-player perspective, even if we cannot have them to play with ourselves. It takes time, and AI assets are free so ED cannot dedicate 20 people to work on them exclusively. But in the meantime, just build your missions in a more challenging way with what we have...

[Mr_sukebe]

A viable option right now is to go lookup when equipment was released and the remove access to equipment that doesn’t suit the scenario, eg removal of availability of Fox3 missiles, guides ground attack ordinance etc

Edited October 19, 2020 by Mr_sukebe

[Harker]

Although I do agree that AI opponents of the same generation to our high-fidelity NATO planes are needed and would be a great addition, I reject the fact that current assets cannot make for a challenging single-player experience to a F-16 or F/A-18.

 

As an example: I am currently playing a DCS Liberation campaign in the Golan Heights. Israel vs. Syria, I picked modern assets. Liberation spawns a huge ADS for Syria with 3 S-300s, and multiple SA-6, SA-8 and SA-11 protecting their bases. Add a multitude of Mig-29s, Mig-25s and Mig-23s and its no walk in the park, even after 8 sorties my CAS is still unable to reliably operate over the battlefield. Of course, one single SAM system is easy to defeat, but what if the systems are close together? In my case it has been a huge challenge to take down those SA-10s, especially since they shoot down HARMs easily. And a great sense of accomplishment when I successfully took them down in different sorties, each time coming low and fast to drop CBU-97 on them.

 

So yeah, modern assets are needed from a single-player perspective, even if we cannot have them to play with ourselves. It takes time, and AI assets are free so ED cannot dedicate 20 people to work on them exclusively. But in the meantime, just build your missions in a more challenging way with what we have...

Exactly, of course a single SAM site out in the open is easy prey for HARMs or a strike fighter or two, for example. But once a mission designer takes time to make an actual ADS, things change quite quickly.

[Max1mus]

Exactly, of course a single SAM site out in the open is easy prey for HARMs or a strike fighter or two, for example. But once a mission designer takes time to make an actual ADS, things change quite quickly.

 

Check the tacview/track in the original post. Its an ADS with an S-300 covered by SA-15, and SA-11 surrounding it. A single F-18 kills them all, after having just turkey shot all enemy CAP on its own. It ends up gunning everything on the airport that this massive set of units is supposed to protect.

 

We need capable units. An SA-15 that in a group, can intercept over a dozen JSOW, an S-300PMU, a modernized SA-11, and of course 21st century russian fighters.