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2 Minute Turns


bonesvf103
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So in the MArshall you are to have 2 minute turns and 1 minute legs. Which is to say for the turn that it should take you 2 minutes to make a complete circle. Which means in terms of the Marshall you should turn for 1 minute to turn around 180 degrees of heading.

 

 

Now in a civilian airplane, you have a turn coordinator to indicate that you are doing a two minute turn. But you have no such instrument in say the Tomcat or Hornet.

 

 

So, how do you measure a two minute turn in aircraft such as this? By angle of bank? Or something else? Maybe it doesn't matter since it is military and you will be out in the middle of the ocean--but what if you are flying ashore under civilian ATC and you are told to do a hold at such and such fix?

 

 

How do you measure a two minute turn in aircraft without turn coordinators?

 

 

Thanks!

 

 

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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No, G B explained that, I quote: " you can do any shape of pattern you like".

 

You have turn indicator at EADI page in hornet.

 

 

OK, I

ll check it out, thanks. BUt the Tomcat doesn't have an EADI so what then?

 

 

Also (I don't know who GB is) but GB says "you can do any shape pattern you like" which might be fine in the open air over the ocean in a military setting but ashore, say coming into a civilian US airport, the FAA isn't going to want you to do any shape pattern you like when they tell you to do a hold.

 

 

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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Simplified formular for that: Bank in Degrees = TAS:10+7

 

 

In lower altitudes just take your speed, devide it by 10 and add 7. The result is your bank angle for a 2 min turn (3°/sec).

 

 

Oh, that sounds easy enough, thanks!

 

 

I'll try it out. Where did you get that formula? Maybe I was shown that in flight school but don't remember since I had a turn coordinator to use anyhow.

 

 

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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180 degrees of turn in 60 seconds. 180/60=3 degrees a second. Standard rate.

so if 3x60=180, then 3x3=9. It takes 3 seconds to turn 9 degrees.

It's pilot math, so round it up to 10. It takes 3 seconds to turn a little less than 10 degrees, or it takes a little more than 3 seconds (3 1/3) to turn 10.

 

So you look at the heading tape on the HUD, it's graduated in 10 degree increments... isn't that handy?

You turn and when the heading pointer passes under a heading mark, you start counting. You can use the clock on the Hornet's HUD too. The same one you use to monitor push time.

After 3 seconds, you look where the heading pointer is in relation to the next 10 degree heading increment, then you adjust your bank as needed, and you start counting again.

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OK, I

ll check it out, thanks. BUt the Tomcat doesn't have an EADI so what then?

 

 

Also (I don't know who GB is) but GB says "you can do any shape pattern you like" which might be fine in the open air over the ocean in a military setting but ashore, say coming into a civilian US airport, the FAA isn't going to want you to do any shape pattern you like when they tell you to do a hold.

 

 

v6,

boNes

 

GB is or was Hornet pilot participating on this forum.

 

Keep in mind that rule of thumbs mentioned are not so precise at speeds Hornet and Tomcat are holding.

 

FAA recommends turns up to 30 degrees, ICAO to 25 degrees, so you would fly that value. Additionally, they do not care what you do as long as you maintain altitude and stay inside protected area. Standard racetrack pattern and standard entries are recommended though, and they are considered a good airmanship.


Edited by =4c=Nikola

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OK, I

ll check it out, thanks. BUt the Tomcat doesn't have an EADI so what then?

 

 

Also (I don't know who GB is) but GB says "you can do any shape pattern you like" which might be fine in the open air over the ocean in a military setting but ashore, say coming into a civilian US airport, the FAA isn't going to want you to do any shape pattern you like when they tell you to do a hold.

 

 

v6,

boNes

 

Then why did you ask this in the supercarrier forum? Expect to get carrier related answers here. And here's turn indicator in the 14.

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Rate of the turn indicator in the Hornet is either on the EADI page, or below the mechanical standby attitude indicator.

 

I've been curious about this though: in the civilian world, what we call a "two minute turn" is a turn that takes 2 minutes for one complete 360 degree circle; thus, a 180 degree turn takes one minute.

 

However I've seen written guidance that suggests a "two minute turn" in Marshall actually means 2 minutes for 180 degrees of turn; in other words, a HALF standard rate turn.

 

I'm aware that as long as you're in the protected area of the hold, the pattern doesn't really matter... but does anyone know for certain what's considered standard here? We usually cap our bank angles in airliners at 25 or 30 degrees AoB, which is less than standard rate at 250kts, but I don't imagine tac jet guys care much about that.

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Fast jets are typically not required to do more than 1/2 standard rate turns (1.5 dps). And it's not terribly uncommon for fighter jets to have turn rate indicators that aren't as obvious as their civil counterparts. A-10 and F-16 both have them for example. I think I see one in the F-18 on the SAI just below the slip ball. I'm also seeing one in the F-14 just above the central display screen.

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On the Hornet, you find the turn rate indicator on the EADI. To be honest, it does look a lot like a slip/ skid indicator, but it is indeed the turn rate indixator. Like in the Kitty, half deflection gives you 1 1/2° per second and full deflection 3° per second turn rate.

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Then why did you ask this in the supercarrier forum? Expect to get carrier related answers here. And here's turn indicator in the 14.

 

Maybe because the question is about flying in the SuperCarrier Marshall?

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Simplified formular for that: Bank in Degrees = TAS:10+7

 

 

In lower altitudes just take your speed, devide it by 10 and add 7. The result is your bank angle for a 2 min turn (3°/sec).

 

Yep, beat me to it. The easy way is to look at your TRUE airspeed (not indicated, this is important), round it to the nearest whole number, take off the last digit and add 7. That is the bank angle you need to hold for a standard rate turn (i.e. a 2 min turn).

 

For example: if your TAS is 216: Round up to 220, remove the zero, take the 22 and add 7 and viola - your desired bank angle is 29 degrees to hold a standard rate turn.

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Or... just use your rate of turn indicator, as that's literally all it does ;).

 

So the pertinent document for real world CV ops training seems to present a 6 minute pattern as "standard", while noting that this can be modified as necessary. The example pattern presented consists of "two minute turns and one minute legs". The only way that equals a 6 minute pattern is if the meaning of "two minute turns" is that each 180 degree turn takes two minutes. Thus it seems that what we're looking for in Marshall is a HALF standard rate turn, anyway?

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The example pattern presented consists of "two minute turns and one minute legs". The only way that equals a 6 minute pattern is if the meaning of "two minute turns" is that each 180 degree turn takes two minutes.

Where do you see this? The one I'm looking at doesn't have an example pattern...

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CNTRA P-816. "The holding pattern is a six-minute left-hand pattern. Unless otherwise briefed, the pattern will be flown at max conserve fuel flow or NATOPS holding speed. Two-minute turns and one-minute legs are normally used for the pattern." So that would be half rate plus one minute legs. It does mention variable legs for time management, e.g. a 5 minute pattern would have 30s legs. There is some maximum leg length but I think it's large enough that you can handle any total hold time.

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There is no set pattern in the In the marshal. Yes CNATRA mentions 6 minute pattern, but CNATRA is unique and does in no way supersede CV-Natops. The most common used pattern is described in my manual “backed up by GB”, published in the super carrier module specific section on the forum and is not flow at 250KIAS but at 300GS to have a 5nm/min GS which will keep the calculations easy. How is this pattern flow ? By doing pilot stuff, make it work, and if your not happy about it then do something with it. If this means 360s/ zig zags/ right turns / burner then this is fine. Just keep altitude and make the push time within +/- 10 seconds at 250 kts.

 

There is also no set way to enter the holding pattern, teardrop parallel entries as in commercial aviation are not used. However there is a strict regulation regarding altitude changes which is also written in the manual.

 

enjoy !

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There is no set pattern in the In the marshal. Yes CNATRA mentions 6 minute pattern, but CNATRA is unique and does in no way supersede CV-Natops. The most common used pattern is described in my manual “backed up by GB”, published in the super carrier module specific section on the forum and is not flow at 250KIAS but at 300GS to have a 5nm/min GS which will keep the calculations easy. How is this pattern flow ? By doing pilot stuff, make it work, and if your not happy about it then do something with it. If this means 360s/ zig zags/ right turns / burner then this is fine. Just keep altitude and make the push time within +/- 10 seconds at 250 kts.

 

There is also no set way to enter the holding pattern, teardrop parallel entries as in commercial aviation are not used. However there is a strict regulation regarding altitude changes which is also written in the manual.

 

enjoy !

 

Right turns are approved as well? So there's no protected side of the radial?

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Then why did you ask this in the supercarrier forum? Expect to get carrier related answers here. And here's turn indicator in the 14.

Originally posted by Sierra99

Maybe because the question is about flying in the SuperCarrier Marshall?

 

Exactly, thanks.

 

Thanks for repeating what I said

 

Why are you making snide comments about a legitimate question and response? But thanks to those of you who helped me with your useful thoughts and input. It's been very informative, I appreciate it

 

v6,

boNes

 

 

 

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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Thanks for pointing out the EADI. I've seen it but liek someone else said, it looked more like a turn/slip indicator, which in the Tomcat I have used as such...it never occurred to me that it could indicate turn rate either.

 

So is it that when the indicator fills one of the boxes on the left or right, then it is saying that you are in a 2 minute turn or otherwise standard rate turn then?

 

Thanks.

 

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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