[ NOT A BUG- USER ERROR] Snakeyes land long

[escaner]

I find that Snakeyes in CCIP always go long, contrary to the slicks in CCRP that are very accurate.

 

Video:

 

Always aiming at the first dark truck under the pipper. Tried throughout the speed envelope, at 500, 450, 400 and 360 KCAS.

 

Track also attached.

m2000-mk82hd-long.trk

[jojo]

I find that Snakeyes in CCIP always go long, contrary to the slicks in CCRP that are very accurate.

 

Video:

 

Always aiming at the first dark truck under the pipper. Tried throughout the speed envelope, at 500, 450, 400 and 360 KCAS.

 

Track also attached.

 

I'm sorry, but watching your video in slow motion, it appears that you are pressing the trigger when the CCIP cue is past the target (klong noise at release).

You have to prepare to press the trigger just as the cue reaches the target.

 

Maybe there is room for improvement, but it's doable.

 

This isn't perfect text book release, this was a video for someone who couldn't release at all in CCIP. But I do get some hits.:joystick:

 

[escaner]

Jojo, I press the trigger when the pipper is over the target, not 25 meters past it where the bombs explode.

 

 

I am sorry, but in your video it is impossible to even see where your bomb goes or what you are hitting. There are a couple of messages that you destroyed something, but when you drop a bomb on a row of vehicles it can hit any of them, not necessary the one you are aiming at, that is not a valid proof of precision nor imprecision.

 

 

I also see that some of your drops have a break X in the HUD, which means that you are out of the attack envelope.

[jojo]

Jojo, I press the trigger when the pipper is over the target, not 25 meters past it where the bombs explode.

 

 

I am sorry, but in your video it is impossible to even see where your bomb goes or what you are hitting. There are a couple of messages that you destroyed something, but when you drop a bomb on a row of vehicles it can hit any of them, not necessary the one you are aiming at, that is not a valid proof of precision nor imprecision.

 

 

I also see that some of your drops have a break X in the HUD, which means that you are out of the attack envelope.

 

I'm dropping the bombs in pairs and I'm targeting individual trucks.

 

Do as I said, play you video at x0.5, and you will hear the release sound past the target. At least for the last attack run we can hear the release.

 

 

The X appears past 520kt, and I don't care since it's a bug.

 

That symbol should be for a "too close" (risk of going through fragmentation enveloppe), not for too fast.

Edited October 11, 2020 by jojo

[escaner]

I have recorded another video with a mic next to the trigger, it can be heard when it is depressed.

 

 

Snapshot of the video at the frame closest to the trigger sound, with the pipper perfectly on the target:

 

 

 

 

60 ms after the trigger is depressed, the pipper disappears.

 

The bomb does not land where the pipper was when I depressed the trigger, not even close to where the pipper was when it disappeared (which could be acceptable). This is not a problem of pickling a few milliseconds before or after, it is way beyond that. it lands more than 100m beyond the target, in his picture of Tacview, it shows 339 ft of distance about to touch ground.

 

[Schmidtfire]

I did a lot of practise CCIP bombing a few nights ago and had the same experience. Using a dive (everything from 20-45deg) the bombs frequently landed long. Flying the Hornet or Viper the bombs usually land bang on target.

 

It can ofc. be user error, but I got a feeling that M2000C CCIP pared with 82SE is off and not very precise. I have no data for those runs, but that was my assessment afterwards.

[jojo]

I have recorded another video with a mic next to the trigger, it can be heard when it is depressed.

 

 

Snapshot of the video at the frame closest to the trigger sound, with the pipper perfectly on the target:

 

60 ms after the trigger is depressed, the pipper disappears.

 

The bomb does not land where the pipper was when I depressed the trigger, not even close to where the pipper was when it disappeared (which could be acceptable). This is not a problem of pickling a few milliseconds before or after, it is way beyond that. it lands more than 100m beyond the target, in his picture of Tacview, it shows 339 ft of distance about to touch ground.

 

Well done.:thumbup:

 

Then the problem is the delay between the trigger press and the bomb release, and this is the module.

[Schmidtfire]

Well done.:thumbup:

 

Then the problem is the delay between the trigger press and the bomb release, and this is the module.

 

Most likely yes.

 

@ escaner

 

Can you record another video with trigger press sound in external F2 view? Would be interesting to see the delay between you pulling the trigger and the bomb release.

[El Chapo]

Guys, a 25m error is within the weapon's CEP.

A GBU-12 has a 10m accuracy. So don't expect a dumb bomb to be that close.

This is the reason why you usually use "carpet bombing" with bumb bombs, and make sure that you target's characteristics are compatible with your weapon.

Cluster bomb is the weapon of choice for vehicles and troops in the open.

Keep Mk-82 for buildings... And buildings that are large enough to make sure that a 25m error is still within the target!

 

Overall, this discussion is not about the game's limitation, but should be seen as a thought on how to best employ my weapons in regards to their limitations. This is called "targeting"... And this is part of the job!

[myHelljumper]

Yes, but the fact that the error is same each time means that there is a bug with the system. If the error was random I would agree with you :).

[escaner]

Guys, a 25m error is within the weapon's CEP.

 

 

IS IT OVER 100 METERS IN ERROR, LOOK AT THE TACVIEW SCREENSHOT

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Yes, but the fact that the error is same each time means that there is a bug with the system. If the error was random I would agree with you :).

 

Nope. Time from trigger pull to bomb release is not accounted for on the CCIP pipper. You guys doing straight and level attacks on pinpoint targets with SEs is wrong. Only situation this is used IRL is when youre taking out a row of targets or a runway, the rest of the time you will be in a 30 degreee dive or greater.

[dimitri_nikolas]

Keep on complaining, this is how improvements show up out of thin air...

Previous posts are about a 25m error.

At 540kt, a 100m error is an error of 1/3 of a second on trigger press.

Add on aiming error (parallax), radar range measurment error, ballistic uncertainty (Mk-82 bodies have lots of differences between different lots), pilot's movements between trigger press and bomb release, wind shears, etc...

I have pretty decent results with M2k in CCIP, so maybe you are looking on the wrong direction. Just saying...

[escaner]

Nope. Time from trigger pull to bomb release is not accounted for on the CCIP pipper. You guys doing straight and level attacks on pinpoint targets with SEs is wrong. Only situation this is used IRL is when youre taking out a row of targets or a runway, the rest of the time you will be in a 30 degreee dive or greater.

 

 

I already said that it is not a problem of the bomb releasing 60 ms after the trigger depress. At 500 KT that accounts for is: 500NM/h * 0.06s / ( 3600s/h ) * 1852 m/NM = 15.4m. Not 100m

 

 

About the tactics, low level attacks with retarded bombs is a very common way to employ those bombs. Obviously not the most accurate, but neither this inaccurate.

 

 

 

Eg a Harrier doing it. Not a row of vehicles nor a runway. "User error", right:

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/TIvAHs25epQ?t=484

[Schmidtfire]

I had the same accuracy issues in a dive. Everything from 20-45deg. But I have no data to support it. There has been reports on the M2000C CCIP before, so It might be worth investigating.

 

@ escaner maybe you should record a video with release in a dive?

[jojo]

Nope. Time from trigger pull to bomb release is not accounted for on the CCIP pipper. You guys doing straight and level attacks on pinpoint targets with SEs is wrong. Only situation this is used IRL is when youre taking out a row of targets or a runway, the rest of the time you will be in a 30 degreee dive or greater.

 

NO.

 

CCIP on Mirage 2000 isn't meant to be use in dive.

There are some missing symbology in the HUD to help the pilot to fly level.

[Schmidtfire]

NO.

 

CCIP on Mirage 2000 isn't meant to be use in dive.

There are some missing symbology in the HUD to help the pilot to fly level.

 

For reference.

 

DCS: M2000C official manual (DCS M-2000C Flight Manual EN.pdf) clearly states that CCIP is used in a dive.

 

 

From Page 281

[tugais]

I might be wrong but I think the key point here is the delivery of snake eye bombs.

[Ergo]

NO.

 

CCIP on Mirage 2000 isn't meant to be use in dive.

There are some missing symbology in the HUD to help the pilot to fly level.

 

Hello, i am a former developper of real M2000.

And i confirm the explanation of Jojo.

 

CCPI display a pipper forward the real point. To do that, SNA use a droping date delayed to XX ms (classified data). This delay include :

- Fixe time (include response time of pilot to press BRM)

- Transit information time (time to compute and transfert fire order to BIA)

- Separation time

 

So, when pilot press BRM, (he need to hold it), the SNA compute the "date of release" taking into account the position of CCPI pipper.

During this time, pilote need to maintain the same trajectory to perform release.

 

When aircraft is on position to drop bomb on good position, SNA send fire-order.

 

It will be important to hold BRM to be sure BIA do not refuse the drop, also fire order is received (BIA check that BRM, and MASTER ARM are in good position when fire order is received).

Edited October 14, 2020 by Ergo

[jojo]

For reference.

 

DCS: M2000C official manual (DCS M-2000C Flight Manual EN.pdf) clearly states that CCIP is used in a dive.

 

 

From Page 281

 

I know. And how practical is it ?

You're even more exposed in that kind of attack run.

All the point of high drag bomb is to increase time between bomb separation and impact to give time to the aircraft to leave the bomb blast area.

 

If you dive, you should better use free fall bombs, you would release from further away.

 

During Desert Storm, French Jaguar A attacked Al Jaber air base in Kuwait.

They were flying so low they had to climb up for bombs arming delay. (High drag SAMP 250kg and BLG-66 IZ).

They released in level flight.

During Ouadi Doum raid in Northern Chad it was the same.

 

There was a time when AdA used to perform firing demonstrations for high rank officials.

These videos are old and difficult to find. But even the Mirage 2000N were releasing high drag bombs in low altitude level flight.

[El Chapo]

The kind of video Jojo is talking about : https://dai.ly/xfpcsf

[Schmidtfire]

What is the correct way to do it in DCS is the real question. If manual states that CCIP is used in a dive, Im assuming a level attack counts as user error. Or is the manual/implementation wrong on DCS M2000C?

 

For low level attacks you are less exposed in a pop-up -> dive attack.

Swedish Airforce looked at information avalible after Desert Storm and concluded that diving attacks should be used and level bombing should be avoided at low altitude. This is info coming directly from a former Viggen pilot (who also fly DCS). Reason is that during Desert Storm level bombing at low altitude proved to be very risky as the aircrafts were exposed to AAA and other systems, flying in a straight line over the target area. They unfortunatly learned this the hard way.

[jojo]

What is the correct way to do it in DCS is the real question. If manual states that CCIP is used in a dive, Im assuming a level attack counts as user error. Or is the manual/implementation wrong on DCS M2000C?

 

For low level attacks you are less exposed in a pop-up -> dive attack.

Swedish Airforce looked at information avalible after Desert Storm and concluded that diving attacks should be used and level bombing should be avoided at low altitude. This is info coming directly from a former Viggen pilot (who also fly DCS). Reason is that during Desert Storm level bombing at low altitude proved to be very risky as the aircrafts were exposed to AAA and other systems, flying in a straight line over the target area. They unfortunatly learned this the hard way.

 

Yes. That's AdA conclusion after Al Jaber attack too.

Multiple Jaguar A were hit, but they all returned home.

On the other hand, Ouadi Doum attack went OK.

 

The thing is that if you pop up, using CCPL makes more sense, it will allow you stand off range from small arm fire and AAA, even from MANPAD if you do it properly.

 

But in a pop up to release high drag bomb at 20° dive angle, you are overly exposed.

 

So IMHO, the manual is wrong.

And with speed, you can perform level attack run at 200-300ft.

[jojo]

The kind of video Jojo is talking about : https://dai.ly/xfpcsf

 

Thanks :thumbup:

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

*sigh* Well the manual is based on the actual manual and the actual tactics used. So while you are entitled to your opinion, youre idea of what happens in game vs. what happens in real life is incorrect so forcing the opinion onto others is not right.

 

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