Get the M2000 or not? (Newbie)

[Thinder]

facts

 

 

I see nothing "factual" in this comment.

 

Here are some facts:

 

The Mirage 2000 was designed from stock with BVR capabilities, from service entry in summer 1983, long before F-16 and F-18, first with Super-530 F then D.

 

It was assigned to Air Combat Squadrons in the defense of French Air space with capabilities equal to that of F-15 when it comes to threats: Interception of Mig-25 flying at M 2.5/3.0/Air combat BVR/WVR.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Air Defense Squadron have been flying their Mirage 2000 in the air superiority role for longer than any other variant.

The Second Escadre de Chasse, dedicated to Air Superiority flies them since 2nd July 1984, along with the B variant for transformation/training with full BVR capabilities that's more than 4 years before F-16C/D could be fully operational.

The "Tiret"5F service entry date is April 1999, the MICA RF AAM was commissioned in 1996, the Second Escadre have been using 2000-5F and MICA since they got their hands on the 2000-5F.

 

9.0 G capable, Mach 2.2 capable, with a higher service ceiling than a F-16 and better climb rate, where does it not fit in this "Air Superiority" pictures of yours exactly?

 

As far as AdlA is concerned, the first engagements of the 5-F vs F-16 and Tornado ended up in a slaughter because the Mirage was able to make full use of its TWS capabilities and shot without having to lock first.

 

Mirage 2000 pilots respect the F-16 but doesn't fear them, they recon the F-15 is way more difficult to deal with because of its BVR capabilities.

 

Now, I don't know if you guys have any form of interest in reality but according to the USA lexicon, this qualify it fully as Air Superiority fighter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited October 8, 2020 by Thinder

[Schmidtfire]

It did not stop the AdA from pushing it in this rôle ^^.

 

And why not? It was a good performing fighter for it's time. You also have to account pilot training, logistics, GCI support etc. So maybe the "complete package" made sense to use it a bit out of it's element. The AdA also had confidence against the type of threats that was out there.

It's hard to judge that decision without seeing the bigger picture.

 

Also, as jojo wrote. That was what they had to work with :)

[myHelljumper]

IMO it fits the interceptor role better than the air superiority role.

 

The Super-Mirage 4000 would've been an air superiority fighter.

 

edit: of course it's not a bad ASF, but clearly other ASF like the F-15 or Su-27 have some big advantages

Edited October 8, 2020 by myHelljumper

[Thinder]

IMO it fits the interceptor role better than the air superiority role.

 

The Super-Mirage 4000 would've been an air superiority fighter.

 

edit: of course it's not a bad ASF, but clearly other ASF like the F-15 or Su-27 have some big advantages

 

 

Air superiority is a condition on the spectrum of air control, which ranges from adversary air supremacy, to air parity, to friendly air supremacy. The air superiority condition is achieved when friendly operations are able to proceed without prohibitive interference from opposing forces.

The 5-F does the job perfectly, the threat of Mig-25 capable of coming above BA-102 in 3mn from the East German border is gone.

 

It would be interesting to simulate this over the Normandie map if DCS wasn't capped below the aircraft capabilities...

 

The Mirage 2000 did fly high altitude cover in protection of the U-2 during the Gulf war, and if its air superiority capabilities had been in doubt, they wouldn't have been assigned to these missions in the first place.

 

In this game it suffers from the lack of development compared to F-16 Block 50 and F-18 but the 5F/Mk 2 + MICAs would rectify this without problem.

 

 

The Fighter Pilot Podcast

 

084 - Mirage 2000

 

......

[ZHeN]

In this game it suffers from the lack of development compared to F-16

Block 50 and F-18

In this game Mirage 2000C and it's weapons are more capable than they should be in real life

 

but whatever mate

 

you're not gonna drag me into another pointless argument, sad angry man :P every community has it's black sheep, looks like this year you're playing this role

[jojo]

I already posted this link several times, but it will be good for those who missed it.

It's the point of view of a British pilot in exchange in the Ads, and flying the Mirage 2000C from 1993 to 1997.

Ian Black flew the Mirage 2000C RDI after the Lightning and Tornado F3.

 

It's a good point of view avout what was the Mirage 2000C RDI in the 90'.

 

https://hushkit.net/2016/10/13/mirage-2000-pilot-interview-cutting-it-in-the-electric-cakeslice/

[myHelljumper]

The 5-F does the job perfectly, the threat of Mig-25 capable of coming above BA-102 in 3mn from the East German border is gone.

 

It would be interesting to simulate this over the Normandie map if DCS wasn't capped below the aircraft capabilities...

 

The Mirage 2000 did fly high altitude cover in protection of the U-2 during the Gulf war, and if its air superiority capabilities had been in doubt, they wouldn't have been assigned to these missions in the first place.

 

In this game it suffers from the lack of development compared to F-16 Block 50 and F-18 but the 5F/Mk 2 + MICAs would rectify this without problem.

 

 

The Fighter Pilot Podcast

 

084 - Mirage 2000

 

......

 

I'm talking about the 2000C not the -5, the -5 is a air superiority fighter.

[Thinder]

In this game Mirage 2000C and it's weapons are more capable than they should be in real life

 

but whatever mate

 

you're not gonna drag me into another pointless argument, sad angry man :P every community has it's black sheep, looks like this year you're playing this role

 

 

Say who? You?

 

There is a bump in its low speed turn rate but all in all it is rather BELOW what it is capable of in real life.

 

You don't think Razbam have been using the real data do you?

 

As for the weapon, we already established that the R530 is nowhere near the flight envelop of the real thing, Max Mach, Snap-up capabilities with range not one or the other, as opposed to the whinnies here, we can come up with something else than false data computed by non professionals, before expressing opinions based on false data.

 

To support your "arguments" we saw false flight envelop, data for the F-16 engine giving it for 38.000 Lb of thrust coming straight from Falcon 4 and so on. Most of you don't even know what the M53 P2 flight envelop is, so if i were to drag you anywhere it would be to your desk for some home work, and I'm not sad, I'm laughing, I think you know why.

 

So yes spare us the "argument" and come back when you got something more serious than that.

 

 

Next we're going to lobby E.D until the simulate this F-16 aerodynamic characteristic for the stake of "accuracy". Enjoy...

 

 

 

 

I'm talking about the 2000C not the -5, the -5 is a air superiority fighter.

 

Same airframe, same engine, only the systems differs and the same could be said about F-15 which was designed to counter the same threat and yet have been used in the Air Superiority role from day one, for as long as an interceptor can turn and dogfight it is suited for air superiority.

 

 

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Edited October 8, 2020 by Thinder

[myHelljumper]

 

This is not productive and off-topic, I stand by what I said but I will stop now.

[Thinder]

This is not productive and off-topic, I stand by what I said but I will stop now.

 

 

You can ignore the definition of what Air superiority is if you chose to, just in case here is the link...

https://www.af.mil/Portals/1/documents/airpower/Air%20Superiority%202030%20Flight%20Plan.pdf

 

 

If everyone debate using proper standards instead of making one's own it would be more productive, that's why I use international standards such as used by NATO and flight test centers instead of trying to change them.

 

 

......

[Bartacomus]

Its the most capable plane in DCS. It out flies the f16, fa18, f14, f5, mig21, fulcrum and flanker.

 

those planes have to press exploits to gain an advantage against the Mirage. the Mirage can easily counter its own disadvantages. Its the best dogfighter.

 

If you havent noticed by now alot of the DCS community complain about dogfighting calling it "Air-Quake".. Personally i find this hilarious since the alternative is starting your fights at 10,000, facing each other, at 60 nm. This is called "Cheese-Dick Air-Quake".

 

Starting a flight with complete tactical awareness outside of your opponents missile range. (fun eh?) Unfortunately, its difficult to find a 'fog of war' experience in DCS. That includes search, ambush, ground utilization, all those factors that give a complete experience.

 

SO! You are relegated to Close in Fighting using the stick, or BVR fighting using the buttons, or joining a group who custom build missions.

 

Honestly, any fighter you get and dedicate time to is going to grow on you. Each appeals to different personality. If you are honest about what you want, you will have a better experience.

Immersion, Fighting edge, Ability, Buttons, Tech, Crush on Tom Cruise.. whatever.

 

The Mirage is as good as any, and better than most. All the planes are fun and great..

 

 

 

 

 

Except the Black Shark. Faaaaaaack the Black Shark

[OnlyforDCS]

have been used in the Air Superiority role from day one, for as long as an interceptor can turn and dogfight it is suited for air superiority.

 

 

......

 

Your own definition of Air Superiority contradicts what you've written here. Air superiority is about ASYMETRICAL combat, I.E. SUPERIORITY.

 

While the C has served in that role, it is definitely not suited to it, especially considering DCS limitations and opponents.

 

I won't even comment on your assertion that the C and the -5 are the same airframe. They might be the same plane, they are definitely NOT the same platform.

 

Whatever this is going way of topic, the I have stated my reasons why the OP should get the 2000C and I still stand by them.

[Thinder]

Your own definition of Air Superiority contradicts what you've written here. Air superiority is about ASYMETRICAL combat, I.E. SUPERIORITY.

 

While the C has served in that role, it is definitely not suited to it, especially considering DCS limitations and opponents.

 

I won't even comment on your assertion that the C and the -5 are the same airframe. They might be the same plane, they are definitely NOT the same platform.

 

Whatever this is going way of topic, the I have stated my reasons why the OP should get the 2000C and I still stand by them.

 

 

Sorry but BVR capabilities and performances at service entry date proved my point right and as far as I know the USAF definition of Air Superiority supports this.

 

Air superiority is a condition on the spectrum of air control, which ranges from adversary air supremacy, to air parity, to friendly air supremacy. The air superiority condition is achieved when friendly operations are able to proceed without prohibitive interference from opposing forces.

What matters is reality not your funny interpretations of it.

 

And it's not MINE but that of the USAF, as usual I use official standard, as opposed to you.

 

 

Do you know what airframe means? The airframe is exactly the same, the engine is exactly the same, only the systems differs, another wrong point from you. We're used to it.

 

So according to you, a M 2.2/9.0 G capable aircraft with the BVR capabilities it had at the time, allowing it to equal that of F-15 (don't mistake them for combat persistence) doesn't qualify for air superiority?

 

You use false data to make false points so stick to it or not, you're still wrong.

 

 

So when do we start the debate on F-16 being prone to departure in transonic above 35.000 Ft?

 

 

"High subsonic above 35.000 Ft, this is an area in which the aircraft is prone to departure if mishandled". 1:26.

If we play by your book and get our way, you're gonna have to do a lot of jumping up and down on Mirage 2000 topics to get even.

 

Not gonna happen. RAZBAM aren't fooled by your methods and they know more about the 2000 than you know about F-16 or aviation in general, if it hasn't been the case, you wouldn't have posted a fake flight envelop in the first place.

 

So if I were you, I'd stop pretending and start leaning, trying to be a better flight sim pilot would be a good start.

 

 

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Edited October 9, 2020 by Thinder

[Alba57]

Hi guys, I’m on the fence of getting this plane on the next sale. But I’m really new to the game, I did try it in 2016 but not too much.

 

Right now I own the F15 and I’m looking for a A2A plane, I fly mainly multiplayer and I’m still getting wrecked online with the F15.

My question is... should I get the Mirage and will I “get good” in it on multiplayer? Or will I have a worst experience?

 

Thank you

 

If your main priority is to kill other guys in multiplayer, buy the JF-17 since it has probably the best FOX-3 missiles in DCS World.

[S. Low]

I'd buy it again for the pure joy of it. It fits like a glove. If I ever decide to play online against people flying like arcade with constant over-g and hauling around 47 fox 3s, I'd probably still enjoy flying the Mirage even if I were losing a lot simply because it's interesting.

[LordOrion]

There was rumors that they should make the 2000-5 variant, i would buy that in a heartbeat since the 2000 is amazing to fly.

https://stormbirds.blog/2019/08/18/is-a-mirage-2000-5-coming-to-dcs-rafael-too/

 

That whould be great!

[gavagai]

 

If your main priority is to kill other guys in multiplayer, buy the JF-17 since it has probably the best FOX-3 missiles in DCS World.

 

:doh:

[DmitriKozlowsky]

YES! It is one of the most satisfying and highest performing hiFi mods in DCS. But its AG weapons kit is somewhat simple but straightforward. You dont have any ranged AG weapons. You have to fly through defenses, and attack ground targets close in with bombs , rockets, and guns. It can carry laser guided bombs, but another unit must lase, and you have to drop weapon like a normal unguided bomb. Its what AG combat was in late 1960's, 1970's, maybe early 1980's.

[jojo]

YES! It is one of the most satisfying and highest performing hiFi mods in DCS. But its AG weapons kit is somewhat simple but straightforward. You dont have any ranged AG weapons. You have to fly through defenses, and attack ground targets close in with bombs , rockets, and guns. It can carry laser guided bombs, but another unit must lase, and you have to drop weapon like a normal unguided bomb. Its what AG combat was in late 1960's, 1970's, maybe early 1980's.

 

Well, it's AG Mike in early 1980' because you have INS, radar ranging and ballistic computer.

No CCIP in the 1960' :smilewink:

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Well CCIP became available in late 1960's with A-7 and in late 1970's in F-16 and Mirage. But in 1960's there was also TOSS BOMBING method, and something called DEPRESSED SIGHT LINE TOSS, which I think was toss but with CCIP type symbology. Not exactly sure, on which platform, and for which weapon. We dont really have tactical nukes, in DCS, which is where TOSS would be used. Except for MIG-21, and the effects are not modeled anyhow, which is fine. I don't think DCS should have anything to do with nuclear weapons. But mine is a minority opinion. Operation Orchard, the IAF strike on Osirak, the primary AG delivery method for F-16A's was CCIP for MK-84.

[jojo]

Well CCIP became available in late 1960's with A-7 and in late 1970's in F-16 and Mirage. But in 1960's there was also TOSS BOMBING method, and something called DEPRESSED SIGHT LINE TOSS, which I think was toss but with CCIP type symbology. Not exactly sure, on which platform, and for which weapon. We dont really have tactical nukes, in DCS, which is where TOSS would be used. Except for MIG-21, and the effects are not modeled anyhow, which is fine. I don't think DCS should have anything to do with nuclear weapons. But mine is a minority opinion. Operation Orchard, the IAF strike on Osirak, the primary AG delivery method for F-16A's was CCIP for MK-84.

 

Ok, fair enough for the A-7 which had innovative avionic for its time. :clap_2:

 

But other method you are talking about aren’t CCIP, most fighters in use in the 1970’ still didn’t have it.

Osirak strike was in 1981, but indeed, F-16 and Mirage 2000 are from the same generation.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Well the time differential between 1981 and 1978 is 3 short years. Osirak mission, being referred to by Israelis, as either Operation Orchard or Operation Opera, planning began in 1980, and likely in 1979. When F-16A were just being made available to non-American users. Figure that development of CCIP for F-16 probably goes back to 1975, as it is different for each type, weapon, radar, and EO sensor.

[Thinder]

Even if France have been the second country in the world to use DOPPLER radar operationally after the USA (F-111) with the Mirage 3E, the truth is that due to slow development, late 1970s, France's avionics lagged a full generation behind that of the USA and that's a 4 years cycle for you from R&D to industrialization, even before decision is taken (or not) to deploy a new technology down to Squadron level.

 

Thanks to intensive efforts and companies like Thales and DGA strong R&D policies, this have changed, but it doesn't mean that what works on lab benches is sent straight away to squadrons to use, it takes time, upgrades, updates and most of it has to be financially supported by export sales because it is never fully funded at government level, see the Rafale situation where deliveries are prioritized in favor of export while AdlA sees Mirage 2000 upgrades...

 

The primary roles of the Mirage 2000 were interception and air superiority, it never was conceived as a multi-role in the first place, so I'm quite sure that all the A2G bits and bobs weren't introduced before a few years from its service entry date, that's 1984 (M53-5/RDM), priority was given to its primary roles, and during the 1990 Gulf war, all AdlA air-to-ground missions were conducted by Jaguars and Mirage F-1 CRs while Mirage F-1 Cs and 2000C were used for point Air Defense And air Superiority respectively.

 

RAZBAM Mirage 2000C is a RDI 1987 model, upgraded and with updated software to be on par with what AdlA uses today so that they can complement the training of their pilots at Squadron level, in no case is it representative of the early 80's aircraft, AdlA used the RAZBAM model even before the cockpit update and gave them enough feedback to improve the model to their liking.

https://moovely.fr/larmee-de-lair-fr...d-mirage-2000/