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Mi-24 NAV & Targeting system capabilities


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Also notice how the Mi-24D was the earlier, less advanced variant than the Mi-24V, despite V being before D in the Ciryllic alphabet. You don't have to look far to find that the letter order isn't a very reliable indicator of what came before what :).

 

In 1975 I don't think the Mi-24V was even officially in service yet (please correct me if I'm wrong), so that's a very early manual. It makes sense to assume that if there was a change, the DISS-15D came before the DISS-15G.

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Hind designations were all out of order, and I suspect the letters (except A) were not there to enumerate the variants, but instead stood for something, as is often the case with Russian aircraft. This is reinforced by the fact that the Polish version of Mi-24V was called Mi-24W, though I have no idea what it actually meant.

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for Mi-24V most likely they took that "V" from "Shturm-V"

for Mi-24P - "P" stood for "PUSHECHNIY" (literally "fitted with cannon")

for Mi-24PN - "P" stood for "PUSHECHNIY" (literally "fitted with cannon"), "N" stood for "night"

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… In 1975 I don't think the Mi-24V was even officially in service yet (please correct me if I'm wrong), so that's a very early manual…

In 1975, the Mi-24V state official tests were completed, and in 1976 the Mi-24V serial production began. That is why the Mi-24V maintenance manual (1975) I mentioned is called 'tentative'.

 

Mi24-V-TMM-IVtitle1975.png

 

Original in Russian

 

В 1975 году были завершены государственные совместные испытания Ми-24В, а в 1976 году началось серийное производство Ми-24В. Именно поэтому упомянутая мною инструкция по технической эксплуатации Ми-24В (1975 г.) и носит название «временная».

 

Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

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This is reinforced by the fact that the Polish version of Mi-24V was called Mi-24W, though I have no idea what it actually meant.

 

I'd presume it's simply a Polish name for the Mi-24V as IIRC they use letter W to denote the sound usually associated with the letter V.


Edited by Dudikoff

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I believe the в (or v) comes from the fact that this variant got the ТВ3-117В engine, where В stands for Высотный, or roughly "high altitude". The Polish designation Mi-24W comes from the fact that Polish doesn't use the letter v, instead w is pronounced like the English v (or Russian в). And so the Russian letter в is transliterated to the Polish w. There's a number of those differences between Polish and English transliterations, a Yak-9 is a Jak-9 in Polish sources, a Kh-25ML is a Ch-25MŁ and so on.

 

That said, we have no idea what the letters stand for in the DISS-15D/G designation, and I'm not convinced we should consider them sequencial any more than Mi-24 designations.

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I believe the в (or v) comes from the fact that this variant got the ТВ3-117В engine, where В stands for Высотный, or roughly "high altitude"…

The TV3-117V engines began to be mass-produced in 1980.

… TV3-117V engines [reference datum]…

40 years to the legendary Mi-24 combat helicopter (part of 3). Modification V.

… The use of a helicopter in the harsh conditions of Afghanistan required urgent measures to increase the static ceiling. On the engines TV3-117 installed new electronic regulators. In addition, for a brief increase in power during takeoff and landing, a water injection system was introduced in front of the turbine. As a result, the static ceiling of the Mi-24D and Mi-24V in Afghanistan was succeeded in raising to 2.1 km…

 

Original in Russian

 

Двигатели ТВ3-117В начали серийно выпускаться с 1980 года.

<…>

 

Original in Russian

 

… ТВ3-117В [справочные данные]…

40 лет легендарному боевому вертолёту Ми-24 (часть 3). Модификация В.

… Применение вертолёта в суровых условиях Афганистана потребовало срочных мер по повышению статического потолка. На двигатели ТВ3-117 установили новые электронные регуляторы. Кроме того, для кратковременного повышения мощности на взлёте и посадке ввели систему впрыска воды перед турбиной. В результате статический потолок Ми-24Д и Ми-24В в Афганистане удалось поднять до 2,1 км…

 


Edited by S.E.Bulba
update.

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Hi guys,

 

didn't expect to kick off such a nice thread with loads of information.

Thanks for answering my question at the beginning.

 

I knew that the Mi-24 was a lot more "basic" design than the Ka-50.

But I did not know much more the Ka-50 is "sophisticated" than the Hind-P.

 

It really is very much another helo then, which for me personally makes it a bit less interesting but for sure I will not say this in general.

The A/C enthusiast inside me is still very much impressed.

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I mean really the hind is very "old school" compared to more modern helicopters like the AH64 or Ka50. Think of it as an early model Cobra.

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The TV3-117V engines began to be mass-produced in 1980.

 

40 years to the legendary Mi-24 combat helicopter (part of 3). Modification V.

 

 

Original in Russian

 

Двигатели ТВ3-117В начали серийно выпускаться с 1980 года.

 

40 лет легендарному боевому вертолёту Ми-24 (часть 3). Модификация В.

 

 

was the high altitude a development because Afghanistan or stronger engines in general?

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whastever happened to our promised AH1Z?

old schools great! not a glorified Autopilot manager! (looking at u KA50)

Nobody ever mentioned anything about the AH-1Z, was supposed to be either a Golf or a Sierra/Whiskey.

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We've discussed navigation, but what about the targeting system for the Ataka's?

 

Any idea what the camera will look like or how it will work?

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was the high altitude a development because Afghanistan or stronger engines in general?

To the history of the TV3-117V engine creation (in Russian).

 

<…>

В апреле 1979 г., то есть ещё до начала полномасштабных боевых действий в Афганистане, ВВС и Министерство авиационной промышленности СССР приняли решение о необходимости повышения потолка стоящих на вооружении вертолётов. Это было вызвано в том числе и тем фактом, что базовый вариант двигателя ТВ3-117 был создан невысотным и мог поддерживать мощность на взлётном режиме и работе на уровне моря только при температуре наружного воздуха не выше +17°C.

 

Представители серийного завода под руководством главного конструктора «Моторостроителя» А.С.Красникова совместно с основным профильным институтом – Центральным институтом авиационного моторостроения предложили заказчику новый двигатель ТВ3-117В (литера «В» от «высотный»). Он имел ту же мощность, что и предшественник, но сохранял её до температуры наружного воздуха +30°C и до высоты 2,2 километра. Этого удалось достичь за счёт внедрения новых конструкционных решений по основным узлам двигателя.

<…>

Запорожские моторостроители оправдали ожидания заказчика, разработка и сборка первого опытного образца ТВ3-117В была произведена в рекордные сроки – всего за девять месяцев. Новый двигатель успешно прошёл 500-часовые стендовые испытания уже летом 1980 г.!

 

Новинка была сразу же оценена по достоинству военными и разработчиками вертолётов – уже в 1981 г. в Афганистан стали поступать вертолёты модификации Ми-24В, оснащённые новыми двигателями, которые в условиях высокогорья показывали на 15–20% бо́льшую мощность по сравнению с предшественником. Более того, новыми двигателями при прохождении ремонтов стали оснащаться и вертолёты предыдущей модификации – Ми-24Д.

<…>

 

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Not a camera.

 

Its a periscope mechanically connected to a CW radar emitter.

 

How does it work and what does the image look like?

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Not a camera. Its a periscope mechanically connected to a CW radar emitter.

 

A CW radar? I always thought it was similar to Fagot/Konkurs missiles, like a SACLOS system where the missile has a flare in the back which the system (9K114 Shturm) tracks with an IR tracker, but instead of sending radio correction commands via wire, radio signals are used instead via the characteristic antenna hanged under the nose.


Edited by Dudikoff

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How does it work and what does the image look like?

Same as in the next video (starting at 4:30).

AVIA TS has "reapears" with a new training video show a Mi-24/35 helicopter combat traning video.

 

A CW radar? I always thought it was similar to Fagot/Konkurs missiles, like a SACLOS system where the missile has a flare in the back which the system (9K114 Shturm) tracks with an IR tracker, but instead of sending radio correction commands via wire, radio signals are used instead via the characteristic antenna hanged under the nose.

Yes, you are absolutely right. This is a conventional radio-guided SACLOS.

 

Original in Russian

 

Так же как и на следующем видео (начиная с 4:30).

 

Да, Вы совершенно правы. Это обычная радиокомандная система наведения.

 

Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

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Ataka is available as both radio command or laser guided SACLOS as far as I know. In radio command guise, it is mostly compatible with the same guidance that was used for Shturm. The chartacteristic "carrot" on the Mi-28's nose is for the guidance antenna for Atakas, again as far as I know. The latest variant omitted it, probably because they've mostly switched to laser guidance.

 

Anyway, there really isn't much to read into sighting and guidance system in Mi-24 :). An optical sight (a periscope to be precise) that is stabilized, but has no automatic tracking or built in rangefinding capability guides the missile to whereever it is looking at, through radio waves.

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The chartacteristic "carrot" on the Mi-28's nose is for the guidance antenna for Atakas, again as far as I know. The latest variant omitted it, probably because they've mostly switched to laser guidance.

 

The NM variant finally omitted it IIRC, but it looks pretty ugly without it IMHO.

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Ataka is available as both radio command or laser guided SACLOS as far as I know. In radio command guise, it is mostly compatible with the same guidance that was used for Shturm. The chartacteristic "carrot" on the Mi-28's nose is for the guidance antenna for Atakas, again as far as I know. The latest variant omitted it, probably because they've mostly switched to laser guidance.

 

Anyway, there really isn't much to read into sighting and guidance system in Mi-24 :). An optical sight (a periscope to be precise) that is stabilized, but has no automatic tracking or built in rangefinding capability guides the missile to whereever it is looking at, through radio waves.

 

looks a lot like a simple magnified rifle scope...

 

you said it is stabilized... so in this case, can the operator put the cross over the target, press some button and it will keep looking at that point no matter helicopter movements?

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Ataka is available as both radio command or laser guided SACLOS as far as I know…

Yes, that's right. The 9M120-1(F) ATGM modification has a SACLOS laser-beam riding.

 

… The chartacteristic "carrot" on the Mi-28's nose is for the guidance antenna for Atakas, again as far as I know. The latest variant omitted it, probably because they've mostly switched to laser guidance…

This is probably not the case. Judging by the KRET JSC information [web.archive in Russian], the capabilities of the SACLOS radio-guided of the ATGM is incorporated into the FCR mast-mounted of the Mi-28NM.

 

The NM variant finally omitted it IIRC, but it looks pretty ugly without it IMHO.

As far as I know, so far there is only one the Mil's helicopter modification with a SACLOS laser-beam riding it is the new Mi-35P prototype. Moreover, judging by the statements of the Mil Helicopters developers, this modification in the base complete set will not be equipped with an ATGW at all, but it can be equipped with an ATGW with a SACLOS laser-beam riding (Shturm-VU or Vikhr-M) at the request of the customer.

 

Original in Russian

Ataka is available as both radio command or laser guided SACLOS as far as I know…

Да, это верно. Модификация ПТУР 9М120-1(Ф) имеет ЛЛКУ.

 

… The chartacteristic "carrot" on the Mi-28's nose is for the guidance antenna for Atakas, again as far as I know. The latest variant omitted it, probably because they've mostly switched to laser guidance…

Вероятно это не так. Судя по информации АО «КРЭТ» [веб-архив на русском языке], возможности РКСН ПТУР заложены в надвтулочную РЛС Ми-28НМ.

 

The NM variant finally omitted it IIRC, but it looks pretty ugly without it IMHO.

Насколько мне известно, пока существует только одна модификация милевского вертолёта с ЛЛКУ – это новый прототип Ми-35П. Причём судя по заявлениям разработчиков вертолётов Миля, эта модификация в базовой комплектации вообще не будет оснащаться ПТРК, однако на неё может быть установлен ПТРК с ЛЛКУ («Штурм-ВУ» или «Вихрь-М») по желанию заказчика.

 


Edited by S.E.Bulba
update.

Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

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Same as in the next video (starting at 4:30).

 

 

 

Yes, you are absolutely right. This is a conventional radio-guided SACLOS.

 

Original in Russian

 

Так же как и на следующем видео (начиная с 4:30).

 

Да, Вы совершенно правы. Это обычная радиокомандная система наведения.

 

 

Slightly O.T., but that's some pretty violent downwash effects the've implemented in that video - but I guess in a FFS having the trees thrash around adds to the immersion i& mental workload n tight landings near trees

Cheers.

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