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Understanding the A10C HOTAS is like learning to configure Windows 95


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I have owned the A-10C I since it was released, and it took me a while to learn using the HOTAS without thinking. It was a bit of a shock when I realized I have to re-learn all of this, and more. Especially since I'm in an advanced age where learning takes more time and effort. But, to hell with it! I accept the challenge and I will tame this beast. And when I'm there it will be even more fun. I only wish I could get my hands on a real A-10C to wipe out these wild hogs (boars) that devastate my garden every night now...

LeCuvier

Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5

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The title of this thread Wins the internet for today.

My Box

Intel i10-850k, 32GB 3600 DDR, 1TB Crucial M.2 NVMe drive, RTX1080ti "Armor", Rift-S, and a piece of crap low end TM "HOTAS". Hopefully something good inbound

--------

Wishlist

AH-64 (any model)

MH-60

F-117

F-15E

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TMS right makes a mark point (with any sensor), and TMS right long turns that into a SPI. Yet there is another function, China Hat forward long, that slaves all sensors to SPI.

The first one is useful to make a markpoint and turn it into SPI without having to make it your steerpoint first. Second one makes all your sensors look at it. They work together perfectly.

 

Yes I understand that I have 5 sensors-HMCS,TAD, TGP, HUD,MAV, AA. But the issue is I have only one focus in my brain. If I am dealing with ONE SPI (by default the A10 only gives you one), it can be confusing to have different sensors looking at different things.

It would be pretty awful if looking out the window with the HMCS kept changing your SPI while the TGP was nicely tracking a tank, wouldn't it?

 

For example, people have noted that different objects can be 'hooked' with different sensors. And that hooked data is different with different sensors. If I can hook only one thing at a time, then how is that different than a SPI?

Hooking is basically selecting an object, but you don't necessarily want to make it a target. For example hook your wingman on the TAD to display his bullseye coordinates.

 

Then besides hooking/marking, there is the idea of 'slaving' - basically deciding when to collapse any two interfaces on to the same data point. If TAD is SOI , why do I want to be messing with slaving the TGP to HMCS?

Looking at something with the HMCS and slaving the TGP to it is such a useful function that it always works regardless of your sensor of interest.

 

...

 

 

Thank you. Yes there are numerous videos on ytube about the mechanics of navigation, targetting, and weapon deployment. But the 'why do it this way and not that way' is what I lack. I do get some of that as snippets in ralfidude's, Wag's, Bunyap's, Redkite's, GrimReaper's, and others' videos. But I guess it's hard to make a video only about tactical choices, and then to make short and clear enough so people don't get overwhelmed. I can just imagine someone like Wag's rattling off 5 different ways to approach a column and considering the pros and cons of each way, given his loadout. By the time he gets to the AO, I'd have spaghetti code in my brain.

 

The HOTAS mission ziptie linked is also useful.

 

Initially, the Hotas felt like it was designed by Hans Giger, but I've gotten familiar with it by making out a few sequences of two or three commands to use. Now when I approach a target, I dont freeze. Rather than the avalanche of alphabet soup from the manual pouring over me, I see one or two tools to use. Like picking up a wrench or a ratchet, there are a few key moves to prep the tool and use it.

 

To anyone else who is on a similar journey, I also note that having a device like a real hotas makes a big difference. Initially I was using a razer keypad and a keyboard. That was an exercise in frustration as I not only had to remember the mapping of the functions like TMS down to the key combination, but also where my fingers had TO GO. Then I got a logitech stick. Flight characteristics improved, but the finger mapping and finger dancing was distracting and too big of a cognitive load. This year I splurged for a vkb stick. WOW. this plane now flies smoothly, barely stalls and slewing the cursor (HUD,TAD,HMCS,TGP, MAV) is useful. My fingers still dance over the synapse keypad (throttles are nowhere to be found). I can only imagine what VR must be like.

 

Getting off topic, the only gripe I have about the A10C user interface is the fixed nature of the HMCS. As I turn my head for trackIR, my eyes have to move in the opposite direction to see the HMCS. It is really annoying and always reminds me of Nicholson in 'The Shining'. In people with brain damage (which I might get if I do too much DCS) this is called 'doll's eyes' (oculocephalic reflex) when only the brainstem is intact- the eyes fix on a stationary point regardless of how the head is moved. I wish they would allow the HMCS location on screen to be be influenced by TrackIR, at least a little.

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@Meyomyx thanks for that. I have a couple from the manual printed out. I updated the one you pointed me too to include the HMCS and have it next to me.

 

But more to the point, There is a funny British guy(?) who made a bunch of 1 minute youtuube videos. These are activity based and allow me to learn the choreographed sequences needed for each specific activity. I have watched them so many times I now remember the crazy analogies he uses (hookers, sheep, etc) Now in the plane, those images haunt me.

 

I suspect the two people who posted that they love the A10 HOTAS have been at it a LONG time. In fact they have the earliest dates of joining this forum.

 

I agree. Like a pair of well worn shoes, there is comfort in automatic (even if idiosyncratic ) reflexive behaviors.

 

Laobi?

 

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Thank you. Yes there are numerous videos on ytube about the mechanics of navigation, targetting, and weapon deployment. But the 'why do it this way and not that way' is what I lack. I do get some of that as snippets in ralfidude's, Wag's, Bunyap's, Redkite's, GrimReaper's, and others' videos. But I guess it's hard to make a video only about tactical choices, and then to make short and clear enough so people don't get overwhelmed. I can just imagine someone like Wag's rattling off 5 different ways to approach a column and considering the pros and cons of each way, given his loadout. By the time he gets to the AO, I'd have spaghetti code in my brain.

 

The HOTAS mission ziptie linked is also useful.

 

Initially, the Hotas felt like it was designed by Hans Giger, but I've gotten familiar with it by making out a few sequences of two or three commands to use. Now when I approach a target, I dont freeze. Rather than the avalanche of alphabet soup from the manual pouring over me, I see one or two tools to use. Like picking up a wrench or a ratchet, there are a few key moves to prep the tool and use it.

 

To anyone else who is on a similar journey, I also note that having a device like a real hotas makes a big difference. Initially I was using a razer keypad and a keyboard. That was an exercise in frustration as I not only had to remember the mapping of the functions like TMS down to the key combination, but also where my fingers had TO GO. Then I got a logitech stick. Flight characteristics improved, but the finger mapping and finger dancing was distracting and too big of a cognitive load. This year I splurged for a vkb stick. WOW. this plane now flies smoothly, barely stalls and slewing the cursor (HUD,TAD,HMCS,TGP, MAV) is useful. My fingers still dance over the synapse keypad (throttles are nowhere to be found). I can only imagine what VR must be like.

 

Getting off topic, the only gripe I have about the A10C user interface is the fixed nature of the HMCS. As I turn my head for trackIR, my eyes have to move in the opposite direction to see the HMCS. It is really annoying and always reminds me of Nicholson in 'The Shining'. In people with brain damage (which I might get if I do too much DCS) this is called 'doll's eyes' (oculocephalic reflex) when only the brainstem is intact- the eyes fix on a stationary point regardless of how the head is moved. I wish they would allow the HMCS location on screen to be be influenced by TrackIR, at least a little.

 

 

FWIW, it will eventually all become so second nature that you will lose the ability to describe how things are done.

 

 

There are many functions that I have to actually stop and draw a diagram if I'm going to try and explain it because so much is deeply ingrained now and I just DO IT without thinking.

 

Hang in there...

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Getting off topic, the only gripe I have about the A10C user interface is the fixed nature of the HMCS. As I turn my head for trackIR, my eyes have to move in the opposite direction to see the HMCS. It is really annoying and always reminds me of Nicholson in 'The Shining'. In people with brain damage (which I might get if I do too much DCS) this is called 'doll's eyes' (oculocephalic reflex) when only the brainstem is intact- the eyes fix on a stationary point regardless of how the head is moved. I wish they would allow the HMCS location on screen to be be influenced by TrackIR, at least a little.

 

Make sure you make most of your TrackIR yaw and pitch curves. When looking at the edge of your screen you should be viewing directly to back as much as head turns. If using 32:9 this should happen bit earlier, at around 20% from screen. Then because you usually look just bit over 90 degrees to side, you could have the rear wards portion much more non-linear and this way you don't have to turn your head that much.

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Getting off topic, the only gripe I have about the A10C user interface is the fixed nature of the HMCS. As I turn my head for trackIR, my eyes have to move in the opposite direction to see the HMCS. It is really annoying and always reminds me of Nicholson in 'The Shining'. In people with brain damage (which I might get if I do too much DCS) this is called 'doll's eyes' (oculocephalic reflex) when only the brainstem is intact- the eyes fix on a stationary point regardless of how the head is moved. I wish they would allow the HMCS location on screen to be be influenced by TrackIR, at least a little.

 

I've never understood how people can use such unnatural device as trackIR. Naturally, eyes lead head rotation, while with track IR they are stationary, or even worse moving to the opposite side. :dunno:


Edited by =4c=Nikola

Do not expect fairness.

The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.

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I've never understood how people can use such unnatural device as trackIR. Naturally, eyes leading head rotation, while with track IR they are stationary, or even worse moving to the opposite side. :dunno:

 

For me it took a little getting used too, but once I did it all became natural and second nature - even to the point of watching something on TV and involuntarily moving my head to see a different part of the scene on the TV! lol.

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Brilliant post and one of the best titles to a forum post in years. Made me spit coffee.

 

I approach these things with very small bites of the big cake and then when I’ve really mastered that small bit I take another tiny bite of knowledge and so on. Has served me well over the years.

 

I appreciate that doesn’t really help with the way the controls are designed. I agree with you completely btw. I still shake my head at the madness after all this time.


Edited by Mule
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The title of this thread Wins the internet for today.

 

Brilliant post and one of the best titles to a forum post in years. Made me spit coffee.

 

The real fun thing is: Windows 95 was rather easy to set up. But I'm still crying in Windows 10 after almost a year + years I had it on secondary machines since its release. Learning ALL the modules of DCS completely without manuals, without tutorials and without YouTube or equivalents is easier than configuring Win 10 Early Access to personal needs. You don't have to google things for just to get the obvious "have you tried turning it off and on again?", "I don't have that problem", "why do you even want to do that? It's not meant to do that anyway" and "that has been answered a thousand of times, go use the search" answers without actually solving the problem eventually. It was so much easier back in the day...

 

I approach these things with very small bites of the big cake and then when I’ve really mastered that small bit I take another tiny bite of knowledge and so on. Has served me well over the years.

 

That's it. And do play around with the stuff if needed. Do make the mistakes, it's a sim after all. You still can try to be nothing else but absolutely perfect IRL, where you literally have to unless you want to end up being unemployed and crying in an empty wallet.

dcsdashie-hb-ed.jpg

 

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I've never understood how people can use such unnatural device as trackIR. Naturally, eyes lead head rotation, while with track IR they are stationary, or even worse moving to the opposite side. :dunno:

Humans can adapt to quiet a lot of things ;)

If you use TIR for a while it becomes absolutely natural to look in the opposite direction of head rotation. Your eyes are fixed to the screen, while your head moves around them, kinda similar to a a stabilized tank turret.

Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

 

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

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I absolutely love A-10C's hotas system, it's by far the most intuitive and the most capable system in whole DCS. Even bodged HMS feels natural.

 

Same here, I've been sitting in the FA18 and 16 cockpits and thought "meh this is BS, makes no sense" and went back to the beloved ugly beast. She understands me and I understand her.

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  • ED Team

As one user on the first page of this thread posted, in the Fighter Pilot Podcast episode of the A-10, the A-10 pilot was explaining how the C-model came to be, and how the cockpit was designed. Specifically, he mentioned that A-10 pilots themselves were the ones that came up with the control scheme between the new HOTAS and the upgraded glass cockpit. They also went to the other military pilot communities that already had HOTAS and glass cockpits and asked them what worked well for them, and also what did not work well.

 

To understand how or why a cockpit and it's controls, displays, and consoles are laid out and set up the way it is, a thorough understanding is needed of not just what the pilot can do with the airplane, but how the pilot manages his "workflow" within the combat conditions they are expected to be operating. Even though the A-10C uses the F-16 stick, and the right throttle grip of the F-15E, the functions that each HOTAS control perform are quite different, set up in a way that is intended to maintain an efficient workflow not only for that aircraft, but how the pilot performs the tasks associated within their mission set(s).

 

The most likely reason why there are many users in this thread that have wildly different opinions on whether the A-10C has intuitive HOTAS controls or not is probably due to the fact that as DCS players, we all have wildy different cockpit workflows when flying our respective modules. Some of these workflows may be influenced by previous experiences of other flight sims; some of them may be influenced by starting out in the F/A-18 (for example), and then trying to jump into the A-10C for the first time. However, in real-life, all A-10C pilots (even those transitioning from other airframes), go through a standardized flight training curriculum, where everyone is more or less trained to the same cockpit workflow with the same training syllabus.

 

Even then, I'm sure a lot of real-world A-10 pilots have slightly different preferences and techniques within that standardized framework. All people process information in the cockpit differently, regardless of the level of standardization in training. I first flew the A-10C when it came out in 2011, and after initial trials of trying to learn it, I got too overwhelmed with all of it and went back to flying the Ka-50. However after a while I got the bug again and hunkered down and forced myself to develop the muscle memory required. Some cheat sheets sitting next to my keyboard helped, but after a while I used them less and less as the muscle memory developed. Now I can get weapons on multiple targets faster in the A-10C than any other DCS module, with the exception of the Ka-50, but that's a whole other ball game.


Edited by Raptor9

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

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I started flying the A-10C when the Tank Killer was released. I've been using it for about 2 weeks now, for about 3 hours every other day and I love it. The HOTAS is probably my favorite thing about it. I can absolutely employ my weapons and sensors to get whatever I need done in a quick and efficient manner, even with a broken Saitek X-52 from 15 years ago.

 

I had been flying the JF-17 and I loved it's HOTAS controls because I had come from the Viggen and the Mirage which had very limited HOTAS controls. It took a bit to get used to the new controls in the Warthog but holy crap, I wish all planes had a HOTAS setup like this.

 

Just last night I set up a mission where I would go in my JF-17 first on a SEAD mission with 802AKGs and LD-10s before respawning in my Warthog to go blow up a staging area for an armoured advance and it was a night and day difference.

 

Having to go through multiple menus in the JF-17 to get to my cruise missile controls and loosing quick access to the other menus really sucked, especially when you accidentally revert back to normal menus and have to go through multiple MFD pages again to get back. The Warthog lets you keep your eyes up and outside, because with the slight movement of a couple fingers to can do damn near everything, and that is where the beauty lies.

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I've only really started to make a concerted effort to learn how to fly it and how to get more proficient with the weapons (thx lockdown/covid). But, I was hoping for more time in my life, anyway.

Agreed with the users who love the A-10C's HOTAS.

 

OP, if we think about it: 43/8 Year Old airframe (with its' individuality) plus upgrades right upto as recent as 2016 (APKWS) / 4 years ago (virtually for us). :pilotfly:

 

This is awesome, frustrating and rewarding work/playtime. :D I love it! :D

 

The Aim-65s have been challenging. But if you YouTube search the right words like the others suggest, you'll find excellent videos (a decades worth!) of how to do things / sometimes more than one way to do the same thing means you can find a way that is intuitive for you. Work with little steps. E.g. For the Aim-65, I did the following progressive steps to learn:

 

-first run with locking ground target and firing;

-first half-run with locking ground target, then second run with firing;

-first half-run with locking multiple targets, then second run with firing;

-(next step): one run with multiple locks and firing (if i can work it all fast enough which i doubt !!! :D )

 

In the week/fortnight I wanted to get this all ingrained, I think I was doing 2 x 2-hour sessions twice a week or 3 days on the trot as I knew that I was close to sussing something out. (and cos I loved the updated graphics from an upgraded graphics card I installed in summer). Then, it all kinda sinks in and the number of buttons doesn't become as intimidating and procedures kind of stick.

 

Another tip I got is 'chunking'. The human mind works well with breaking up long bits of data into manageable chunks. E.g. telephone numbers - 0207 123 456. This is how I've learnt which buttons on the joystick do what. So, you'll learn which one is the DMS and which one is the TMS, very quickly, for example.

 

Persevere mate, you'll love it and you'll remember why you chose this module :thumbup:


Edited by freelancer2011
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I've had the A10 forever and never really got into it as I decided to put time into the Shark instead...

 

The A10CII seems pretty great honestly but I find that one of its primary weaknesses, oddly enough, isn't "weak enough" :). By that I mean...

 

It's Super effing slow. Like so slow I almost want to hop out and go get the Shark because there's not a lot left to learn in it and it's VERY effective.

 

But... While I complain about it's speed... It's also not slow enough :).

 

I can't stop and hide behind a building while my CAP sweeps :).

 

Pick your poison :).

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Humans can adapt to quiet a lot of things ;)

If you use TIR for a while it becomes absolutely natural to look in the opposite direction of head rotation. .

 

Yes. I adapted immediately when I retired the old TIR for VR. :music_whistling:

Lobo's DCS A-10C Normal Checklist & Quick Reference Handbook current version 8D available here:

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/172905/

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Well here is some help:) take a look at this https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/?CREATED_BY=CaptMikeDK&set_filter=Y I am converting all the "Old" A-10 missions, and these missions are working perfectly.

 

Voice over instructor, all interactive in game missions :) No videos needed!

 

Enjoy

 

Quite a contribution sir! Thank you

Windows 10 Pro - 64 Bit / ASUS ROG Strix B650E-F Gaming / AMD 7800X3D / G.Skill Trident Z5 NEO 64GB DDR5 6000 Ram / SSD M.2 SK hynix Platinum P41 2TB / MSI Gaming GeForce RTX 4090 SUPRIM Liquid X 24G / SteelSeries Arctis 7 Headset /LG-Ultragear 38" IPS LED Ultrawide HD Monitor (3840 x 1600) / Track IR4 / Thrustmaster TPR Pendular Rudder Pedals / Virpil HOTAS VPC Constellation ALPHA-R & VPC MongoosT-50CM3 Throttle

 

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I've never understood how people can use such unnatural device as trackIR. Naturally, eyes lead head rotation, while with track IR they are stationary, or even worse moving to the opposite side. :dunno:

 

I wasn't sure at first so I used FreeTrack with a webcam and a small torch taped to the peak of a baseball cap.

 

Within minutes I knew that head tracking was a game changer and have never looked back since buying TrackIR 5 Pro :joystick:

 

Actually "never looked back" is a poor choice of words.. I look back quite comfortably in the sim now!

"We could come back with hydraulics shot out, half the tail shot off, piece of the wing shot off, we had two engines and could come home with one... She really was a piece of machinery that you could fly into hell and back... And she was designed around that gun from day 1"

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