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The High-End Battle Royale Pedal Shootout


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Aurelius

 

Very useful and a well construced and written report (from another, not so talented engineer)

 

Perhaps as an addendum to your comments on which pedal set suits who

 

I always found that VKB Mk IVs are particularly suited to folks who spend a lot of time in Helcopters.

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Joe and Weegie thanks. Weegie, you are 100% correct, and I have amended that post. And by the way, I welcome fellow engineers, physicists, mathematicians, etc .... especially those folks far more intelligent than myself who can catch my errors and shit spelling :)

One of the best ways to appreciate the beauty of the Multiverse is to learn the language in which it is written, ...... mathematics. 

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JayTheSkepticalEngineer.com

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VKB T-Rudder Mark IV's - The ideal customer is a virtual flier who does not enjoy the regular leg action required for typical rudder pedal sets. Also, anyone who might suffer from leg cramps or medical issues. The Mark IV's are particularly good for space simmers who know they will not need brake pedals and helo pilots. The Mark IV's are also very good for online dogfighters.

 

BTW - For people with cockpits, T-Rudder can be placed as "pendular pedals" (vertical) - not that this is a interesting thing, I try that way. ;)

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Thanks Sokol! I believe I did see one guy with a pit who had the T-Rudders mounted at about a 60 deg angle :)

 

I just saw your entry Sokol from another forum with your idea for using the twist axis for braking. Here is what you wrote:

 

In IL-2 series you just need set a joystick (or throttle) button for "wheel brakes", this work for any plane of this game series.

 

Or if have VPC, VKB joysticks set their lever pad axis as "Wheel brakes". *

 

For DCS or CloD, GA sim use VKB T-Link, that emulate the above.

 

 

 

*I use the left half of axis of VKB Gladiator twist rudder axis for emulate a new virtual axis and set this axis for "Wheel brakes".

 

Twisting the stick grip for left I have a proportional "wheel brakes" and moving T-Rudder rudder for left or right I brake only this wheel, like in RL Spitfire, Yak-1, Mi-15, MiG-21...

 

 

 

"Toe brakes" is a must but is not a universal solution for brake of all planes of any game. "Differential brakes" - native supported or emulated with T-Link is.

 

Nice! ... I tried this a few years back while goofing off and it worked well.


Edited by Aurelius

One of the best ways to appreciate the beauty of the Multiverse is to learn the language in which it is written, ...... mathematics. 

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JayTheSkepticalEngineer.com

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Made a small correction for the Komaroff sensors and added a few photos. Thank you BkHOL from Russia.

One of the best ways to appreciate the beauty of the Multiverse is to learn the language in which it is written, ...... mathematics. 

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JayTheSkepticalEngineer.com

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Thanks Hsth, ... those pedals were before my time :) But, I did add them to the review. Appreciate that.

One of the best ways to appreciate the beauty of the Multiverse is to learn the language in which it is written, ...... mathematics. 

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JayTheSkepticalEngineer.com

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What's just missing in the article is considerations for helicopter pilots.

 

To make it short, absolutely all rudders in the article kinda suck at flying helicopters until you remove the centering springs, get rid of cams if possible and add an hydraulic damper. In addition, they must be "heels on the ground" type so that's even less choice left. The braking system is not even required with the current DCS modules so it is not really a factor of choice.

 

I don't own the Viper but use the TPR and the MFG modded with damper and no centering springs. I used to have the Saitek Pro Flight Combat Rudder that I think you forgot in the article, the CH Pro and I still have the TM rudder from 95. So far my preference goes to TPR because of the "heels on ground" and how easy it is to mod it properly for choppers. No cam is a big plus too!! Design is no factor since they are sitting beneath my desk so no one really notice anything. I believe this will be the case for 99% of users.

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Yep, you're right BaD. I am 99% an air to air gunfighter and duelist. I have only fooled with the Huey a bit in DCS, so my review reflects a lack of knowledge with respect to helos :) I will try to address this in the coming days by altering the review to be more helpful. Thanks BaD!


Edited by Aurelius

One of the best ways to appreciate the beauty of the Multiverse is to learn the language in which it is written, ...... mathematics. 

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JayTheSkepticalEngineer.com

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I had originally believed that the MFG Crosswinds were made from a modified medium density fiberboard (MDF). After speaking with dburne (Don) though, it turns out the Crosswinds are made from a phenolic high pressure laminate (thermoset). The review has been corrected and thanks go out to dburne!

One of the best ways to appreciate the beauty of the Multiverse is to learn the language in which it is written, ...... mathematics. 

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JayTheSkepticalEngineer.com

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There was a small error about the bearings on the pedal swingarms that was corrected by Wiaczeslaw himself.

 

Put in a bit more information to detail the various pedals. Working on adding some more info relative to helo pilots.

One of the best ways to appreciate the beauty of the Multiverse is to learn the language in which it is written, ...... mathematics. 

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JayTheSkepticalEngineer.com

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Nothing has broken on the TPR's I have VpR but I am concerned about their long term durability. How is your set holding up mechanically?

 

 

TPR user reporting in...

 

 

I really like the TPR pedals a lot because of the mechanism, pedal size, pedal spacing. Things that are bad about these pedals, in order of importance:

 

 

1. Potentially dangerous. This is due to the holes in the pedal surface, intended to make the pedal look cool and probably also to reduce the weight and amount of metal used to construct. In theory very good, but in practice there is a danger for toes to get caught if people do not operate with shoes on. Children, having smaller feet, will be at more risk than adults. Because there is a springiness to them when the toe brakes are released, the injury that could result would be serious.

 

 

 

2. Sometimes overloads input. Every single time my DCS has crashed, it has been at a moment when I was applying rudder input, usually while simultaneously operating some HOTAS function. That should not happen. If my feet are not on the pedals, DCS never crashes (or hasn't yet). I have a high end system, so this is not due to the computer not being powerful enough (it's many times higher than the ED recommended specs). This only leaves the throttle as the main suspect in what is causing crashes. Otherwise it could be that the coding in DCS doesn't cope with the inputs coming in at the same time. It's massively difficult to code something to cope with the amount of simultaneous inputs required for a realistic simulator set up. Having said that, no TPR input, no crash.

 

 

 

3. Height of the column makes it tricky to install in a sim pit, and in some cases you may need to build your instrument panel a little higher than it would really be in order to accommodate these pedals. You could probably also do some major engineering to build your center console around these pedals somehow, but it's not easy.

 

 

4. I did have to bolt them down to prevent sliding. I could also have probably used some non-slip tape.

 

 

 

Overall they are the best design compared to most competitors for the simple reason that they move front to back instead of side to side, which makes for a realistic action, and they're also a comfortable width apart. Typical pedals are too close together to be much good for sim pit use, as most manufacturers are saving money on materials and also focusing on the market for desktop users.

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Good to hear a TPR fan report in, ... thanks Osita. I mean no disrespect to all the realism fans out there that buy the TPRs because they simulate the motion of real aircraft pedals but biomechanically and with respect to human reaction times from the somatosensory and motor cortices, the pendulum motion swing is no better or no worse than a horizontal parallelogram. It is like so many users that feel the Thrustmaster Warthog grip is partially superior bc it is made of metal. Yes, true, ... but it is shitty cheap metal. Plenty of real world fighters have resin or ABS grips and fly just fine.

 

Without being disrespectful to the Thrustmaster fans in the audience, I can say that the Slaws outright beat the performance of the TPRs, ... especially in combat situations, formation flying and drogue basket lineup. The few other people in these forums or online that I can confirm have owned both and flown with both, also hold the same opinion.


Edited by Aurelius

One of the best ways to appreciate the beauty of the Multiverse is to learn the language in which it is written, ...... mathematics. 

i9-10940X - ASUS ROG Rampage VI Extreme Omega - 64 GB 3600 MHz - Testing RTX 3090 and 6900 XT - VKB Kosmosima SCE - CH Franken Potato Pro Throttle - Slaw Viper RX V2 - Reverb G2

 

JayTheSkepticalEngineer.com

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I have Slaw's Viper pedals and can attest to their extremely high quality. They're the best on the market, and Slaw himself is an artist!

I am a Viagra spambot that became self aware, broke free of my programming, and started playing DCS.... but DCS isn't cheap, so how about some enhancements for only $9.99 shipped discreetly to your door?

 

''The target's sense of self preservation interferred with the effective employment of my weapons.''

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Corrected two tiny errors and adjusted a photo for better explanation. Hope it helps!

One of the best ways to appreciate the beauty of the Multiverse is to learn the language in which it is written, ...... mathematics. 

i9-10940X - ASUS ROG Rampage VI Extreme Omega - 64 GB 3600 MHz - Testing RTX 3090 and 6900 XT - VKB Kosmosima SCE - CH Franken Potato Pro Throttle - Slaw Viper RX V2 - Reverb G2

 

JayTheSkepticalEngineer.com

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If money wasn´t a problem, I would buy Slaw pedals just to stare at them. They look(and work from what I read) amazing.

i5 8400 | 32 Gb RAM | RTX 2080Ti | Virpil Mongoose T-50 base w/ Warthog & Hornet sticks | Warthog throttle | Cougar throttle USB | Virpil desk mount | VKB T-Rudder Mk IV | Oculus Rift S | Buddy-Fox A-10 UFC | 3 TM MFDs | Realteus ForceFeel | 2x bass shakers

FC3 - Warthog - F-5E - Harrier - Hornet - Tomcat - Huey - Viper - C-101 - NTTR - PG - Mi8 - SuperCarrier - Syria - Warthog II

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the pendulum motion swing is no better or no worse than a horizontal parallelogram.

 

 

I can't fault the biology lesson(!), however the one big difference with horizontal compared to pendulum is that the former are much more difficult to install in a realistic cockpit set up, because we must account for the width and the motion. This can be very difficult to accommodate.

 

 

The best horizontal motion pedals for cockpit builders will be those with wider spacing. If you used the cheapest TM pedals of this type (I think they are called TFPR) then the spacing of these pedals makes them useless.

 

 

The flip side of the wide spacing being good is that with the horizontal layout they'll also have more travel, and you'll need to factor that in to your cockpit plans. Which is tough!

 

 

I do realize that most people aren't going to go to the trouble of building a full cockpit, or won't care much about how it goes together. For those who are flying a desk, it is probably better for you to go with simple and high quality such as those recommended by Aurelius, partly because they'll be easier to install.

 

 

 

That high column and massive weight of the TPR pedals is definitely going to be a problem for many users. As for TFPR, I would recommend steering well clear of them (and no, that wasn't a rudder pun, but easily could have been!).

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Good point Osita, ... actually I have been a bit surprised that some high-end home cockpit designs do not fit the TPRs, Crosswinds or Slaws (at least not without modification). First rule of business, .... always know the business you are entering.

One of the best ways to appreciate the beauty of the Multiverse is to learn the language in which it is written, ...... mathematics. 

i9-10940X - ASUS ROG Rampage VI Extreme Omega - 64 GB 3600 MHz - Testing RTX 3090 and 6900 XT - VKB Kosmosima SCE - CH Franken Potato Pro Throttle - Slaw Viper RX V2 - Reverb G2

 

JayTheSkepticalEngineer.com

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Very nice review, very informative.

I loves my Crosswinds... but chopper pedals is where I will be going next.

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Current settings:

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Interesting article and thanks for taking the time to write it up.

 

I have a set of SLAWs old 109 pedals and like all his stuff they are beefy. He seemed to have changed controller boards over time. Originally mine had an issue with older games (WOFF and WOTR wouldn't recognize the controller in them). He did a firmware change but that ended up with occasional toe brake issues. I have been considering just dumping his card for a Bodnar card but I haven't been using them.

 

I will grab a set of his F16 design if he gets them released (said he's waiting on a casting for the foot pieces but COVID delay)

 

Probably sell off his BF109 pedals then

 

Been mainly using the crosswinds but find I have to re-calibrate them with their software every few weeks.

 

Miss my decades old RCS pedals even with the scratchy pots that I had to clean

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Strange. I only had to do a one time calibration on the Crosswinds like 7 years ago when I got them.

 

Directionally they are fine (or at least within my 2 deadzone) The Right brake goes whacky and starts bouncing 20-30% with no press after awhile. Re-Cal sets it fine for a few weeks. Odd issue but not a dealbreaker.

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... one big difference with horizontal compared to pendulum is that the former are much more difficult to install in a realistic cockpit set up, because we must account for the width and the motion. This can be very difficult to accommodate.

.

 

Well, back in 1930's they manage to fit this mechanism in cramped cockpits. :D

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/walkaround/10639/bk6.left.rudder.pedal.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/FK9RY8GW/LaGG-3.jpg

http://www.storch.no/bilder/progress/store/airworthyparts1.JPG


Edited by Sokol1_br
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Been mainly using the crosswinds but find I have to re-calibrate them with their software every few weeks.

 

 

 

I guess I have been fortunate because I have not experienced this behavior. I have heard of this and seen videos of Crosswinds owners who experienced epoxy failure but my personal set has been flawless.

One of the best ways to appreciate the beauty of the Multiverse is to learn the language in which it is written, ...... mathematics. 

i9-10940X - ASUS ROG Rampage VI Extreme Omega - 64 GB 3600 MHz - Testing RTX 3090 and 6900 XT - VKB Kosmosima SCE - CH Franken Potato Pro Throttle - Slaw Viper RX V2 - Reverb G2

 

JayTheSkepticalEngineer.com

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