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They Made MiG-21 Great Again


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Really enjoying playing with the newly fine tuned FM for DCS MiG-21.

 

I found this great resource about the MiG-21 in USAF Aggressor Squadron. It's a really good read for DCS MiG-21 fans and fanatics. The new FM seems to be closer to the test pilots descriptions than it was before.

 

 

They state:

 

"Even the mighty F-15 Eagle had no solution in dogfight below 150-250 knots against MiG-21 in US Aggressor hands...This way Mig-21 will remain behind every opponent still having sufficient control ability for gun tracking using rudder rolls...It is obvious that US aggressor pilots pulled full aft stick in turn regardless of the lateral oscillations, roll off and temporary loss of control. "

 

 

I found this hard to believe at first. So I did a bit of testing and with the current FM we can hold back on the stick below 250km/h and use rudder rolls with pretty good control. I tested against F5 tiger... Merge, zoomed climb and at the top, at very slow speed was able to out turn him quite well. Almost like a pedal turn...

 

But the article says the MiG-21 F they had was able to out turn an F-15 like this! It says the Bis model should have good slow speed characteristics too, while not as quite nice as the lighter F .

 

So I tested against an AI F-15 with ace skill. guns only.

 

 

This is a whole new way to fly the MiG-21 for me. You can see that the F-15 really had me on the defensive and I was able to turn the situation around very quickly using this slow speed high alpha tactics described by USAF Aggressors.

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Nicely done. IMHO the MiG is the best it's ever been in terms of realism and performance.

DCS module wishlist: F-104S ASA-M Starfighter / F-111F Aardvark / F-4E Phantom II / J 35F2 Draken / J-7M AirGuard / Kfir C.2 / MiG-17F / MiG-21 Bison / Mirage F1 / Su-17M4 / Su-24M / Yak-9U

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MiG gang :wub:

 

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There have been some bumps along the ride here and there, but the 21 is still my favourite thing to fly, by a long margin. She has real character, and rewards those who take the time to learn her limits and hidden talents. I've yet to master the fight with a human opponent in a gen 4 1v1, but I've managed to ambush a few of them in PvP servers and get some dirty kills, including a pair of Hornets with the gun. Crucially they dumped all their speed, and then not even their high AoA capability could help them - because the 21 can do that little trick, too.

Edited by rossmum
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May she live forever, one of the best fighter jets ever made.

CC6F9DC8195B81566334B192DB4A82108ED9186B

Edited by Thor_H

Supercarrier | Flaming Cliffs 3 | M-2000C | AJS-37 Viggen| MIG-21Bis | L-39 Albatros | Yak-52 | Spitfire LF MK IX | Mig-15Bis | Mig-19P Farmer | P-51D Mustang | F/A-18 | F-14 | F-5E Tiger II | C-101 Aviojet | I-16 | UH-1H Huey | Mil MI-8tv2 | Sa 342M Gazelle | Combined Arms | NS-430 Navigation System | NEVADA | Persian Gulf | Normandy1944 | World war II assets pack | Black Shark 2 | F-5E Agressors ACM campaign |F-5E Agressors BFM Campaign | L-39 Albatros Kursant Campaign | DCS:Syria

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I can tease too :lol:

 

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AMD Ryzen 3900X @ 4.6 Ghz / Asus Crosshair VII X470 / 32 GB DDR4 3600 Mhz Cl16 / GTX 1080Ti @ 2010 Mhz core / Samsung 960 EVO M.2 SSD / Creative SoundBlaster AE-9 / HP Reverb / VIRPIL T-50CM / MFG Crosswinds / Audio Technica ATH-MSR7

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Libyan MiG-21 :o

Servus! :smilewink:

My DCS:World-Modules:

A-10C, UH-1H, F-86F, Fw-190D9, MiG-21bis, P-51D, Mi-8MTV2,Bf-109K4, MiG-15bis, L-39C, Hawk, NTTR, Mirage 2000C, SA342M Gazelle.

 

Wishlist:

P-40, F-104G/S, Saab J-35 Draken, A-1H Skyraider, Su-17/22M4. :music_whistling:

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@Hiromachi, new skins coming up? I may have a few suggestions for you... :joystick:

DCS module wishlist: F-104S ASA-M Starfighter / F-111F Aardvark / F-4E Phantom II / J 35F2 Draken / J-7M AirGuard / Kfir C.2 / MiG-17F / MiG-21 Bison / Mirage F1 / Su-17M4 / Su-24M / Yak-9U

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@Hiromachi, new skins coming up? I may have a few suggestions for you... :joystick:

 

Contact Rudel, he will know what to do with any skins ideas.

AMD Ryzen 3900X @ 4.6 Ghz / Asus Crosshair VII X470 / 32 GB DDR4 3600 Mhz Cl16 / GTX 1080Ti @ 2010 Mhz core / Samsung 960 EVO M.2 SSD / Creative SoundBlaster AE-9 / HP Reverb / VIRPIL T-50CM / MFG Crosswinds / Audio Technica ATH-MSR7

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Wait you telling me that’s not a Kfir in the back being teased:)

 

You mean the one on the right of the flight line, far in the background? That looks like an F-5 to me... There's an Israeli team currently working on a Kfir C.2/C.7 mod, the quality of their 3d work so far is second to none.

 

Contact Rudel, he will know what to do with any skins ideas.

 

Will do! :thumbup:

 

Getting back on topic, tonight my friends and I will be doing some testing with the 21. The last time we tried out the Fishbed against the F-5 the latter dominated one-circle fights, especially if the merge happened at >800 km/h. I have a sneaking suspicion the fight will be much more evenly matched this time.

DCS module wishlist: F-104S ASA-M Starfighter / F-111F Aardvark / F-4E Phantom II / J 35F2 Draken / J-7M AirGuard / Kfir C.2 / MiG-17F / MiG-21 Bison / Mirage F1 / Su-17M4 / Su-24M / Yak-9U

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They're very closely matched. A well-flown F-5 is very hard to get a shot on if he gets into a slow, 1-circle kind of fight, but the longer the fight lasts, the higher the MiG's odds of winning become. The reverse is true if the F-5 flies more technically 'perfect' BFM and just focuses on rating the MiG, in my experience - but not many F-5 pilots are disciplined enough to do this. I have a deep suspicion this is what Soviet test pilots were talking about when describing the F-5 as routinely beating the MiG-21 and even 23 within 4-6 minutes - the kinds of crazy, edge-of-the-stall flying a lot of us do in DCS would be very opposed to continuing to be alive in real life.

 

The MiG theoretically dominates the vertical in DCS, but that also depends on what speeds the two aircraft enter the maneouvre at - the F-5 is light enough and slick enough to carry some speed up if it doesn't get too greedy, but he can't sustain it through multiple loops. You can run them out of energy by abusing your thrust and then fall on them as they extend away to regain it.

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Getting back on topic, tonight my friends and I will be doing some testing with the 21. The last time we tried out the Fishbed against the F-5 the latter dominated one-circle fights, especially if the merge happened at >800 km/h. I have a sneaking suspicion the fight will be much more evenly matched this time.

 

Looking forward to your online play video. I'm using DCS stable, so I haven't had a chance to try the new FM, but beating the AI is not hard even with the old model. I have several videos of quick MiG-21 victories against the F-15, F-16, and F-18 (all set of "excellent", of course). The only one that really gives me a run for my money is the Mirage. In general, the problem with fighting AI is its extreme predictability. Once you learn its tricks, you can anticipate exactly what they will do and plan accordingly. Not to mention they do moves that no sane human would do. The other problem with the AI is that they wait for the perfect shot. In many cases, they have their nose on me and I'm thinking "Perfect shot! Why doesn't he take me out?" (sometimes they do, of course). But overall, I feels the AI is programmed to shoot only when it's got a perfect solution, which rarely happens in a dogfight. Most of us take pot shots when the opportunity presents itself hoping it'll connect. I don't think the AI ever does that...

At any rate, have fun tonight and do post a video please.

Cheers!

Doc

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They're very closely matched. A well-flown F-5 is very hard to get a shot on if he gets into a slow, 1-circle kind of fight, but the longer the fight lasts, the higher the MiG's odds of winning become. The reverse is true if the F-5 flies more technically 'perfect' BFM and just focuses on rating the MiG, in my experience - but not many F-5 pilots are disciplined enough to do this. I have a deep suspicion this is what Soviet test pilots were talking about when describing the F-5 as routinely beating the MiG-21 and even 23 within 4-6 minutes - the kinds of crazy, edge-of-the-stall flying a lot of us do in DCS would be very opposed to continuing to be alive in real life.

 

The MiG theoretically dominates the vertical in DCS, but that also depends on what speeds the two aircraft enter the maneouvre at - the F-5 is light enough and slick enough to carry some speed up if it doesn't get too greedy, but he can't sustain it through multiple loops. You can run them out of energy by abusing your thrust and then fall on them as they extend away to regain it.

 

This matches my experiences from CW last week. From my research the F-5 and the Fishbed-L should be very close peers down on the deck (assuming similar loadouts and fuel levels), with the Tiger enjoying slight advantages in maximum turn rate, minimum turn radius and climbing turns at medium to high speeds, while the MiG accelerates quicker, has a higher straight-line rate of climb and better handling at very low speeds (its controllability enhanced by an effective rudder, just like Dirty Rotten Flieger demonstrated in his fight against the F-15). What I love about this matchup is that usually dogfights are won or lost with situational awareness, teamwork, tactics and piloting skills rather than hardware.

 

At any rate, have fun tonight and do post a video please.

Cheers!

Doc

 

Cheers, will do. hopefully I'm going to have enough HDD space to record the whole thing. I'll try to tape this together with in-flight comms. Please don't expect much, I'm not a YouTuber by any stretch of the imagination.

DCS module wishlist: F-104S ASA-M Starfighter / F-111F Aardvark / F-4E Phantom II / J 35F2 Draken / J-7M AirGuard / Kfir C.2 / MiG-17F / MiG-21 Bison / Mirage F1 / Su-17M4 / Su-24M / Yak-9U

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Doc, I filmed a few segments from tonight's flying and this is just about the only one that is of any relevance. Sorry I don't have more for you.

 

 

I tried using the rudder at low speeds, with a little bit of opposite aileron it works like a charm.

DCS module wishlist: F-104S ASA-M Starfighter / F-111F Aardvark / F-4E Phantom II / J 35F2 Draken / J-7M AirGuard / Kfir C.2 / MiG-17F / MiG-21 Bison / Mirage F1 / Su-17M4 / Su-24M / Yak-9U

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I love the Mig-21! He's a real troublemaker in the skies. A nice blend of old century series and modern design IMO. Fast, nimble and deadly.

----------------------

 

Modules: Nevada, Caucasus, Su-25T, F-16C, F/A-18C, Persian Gulf, TF-51D, Syria, Open Beta

140GB of goodness, and counting.

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Doc, I filmed a few segments from tonight's flying and this is just about the only one that is of any relevance. Sorry I don't have more for you.

 

 

I tried using the rudder at low speeds, with a little bit of opposite aileron it works like a charm.

 

Thanks, _Firefly. That was interesting. The "new" MiG certainly seems to keep up the F-5 (good job keeping AoA needle out the red). On occasion it looked like the F-5 was starting to out-rate the Mig, but you kept on right behind it. Of course, the F-5 is so tiny, hitting it is more a matter of chance than marksmanship - for me at least.

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Don't test against AI. Mig-21 is much better now, but you're not going to outmaneuver a human flown, flaming cliffs F15.

P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria

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But overall, I feels the AI is programmed to shoot only when it's got a perfect solution, which rarely happens in a dogfight. Most of us take pot shots when the opportunity presents itself hoping it'll connect. I don't think the AI ever does that...

 

AI does shoot "non-perfect" manner, but they are such that if you keep an eye of them, you have enough time to make maneuver avoid it. If AI is at your rear, you can sometimes see the tracers flying at your one side and if you make imminent maneuver you can avoid the following shells as they fired at you outside their pull and then kept firing while pulling.

 

But I would like to see an AI to shoot more realistic manner, all AI and not just piloting ones.

 

As well I would like to see tracers removed unless specifically set, as now it is immersion killer when you see all units travers all around you. It would make more dangerous just see the muzzle flashes but not tracers as you can't even see how badly AI is shooting.

 

Then it would be great to see AI to improve their target lead practicing. As now it is little silly, especially on ground units that they shoot at your rear when you are clearly flying away without any change to fly to the firing. And then opposite that in air the AI doesn't take such snapshots that would put you fear them.

 

I have faint recollection that AI did previously back in the history shoot far more?.....

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

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This post makes me all giggly and excited! This is also my place holder to come back and marvel at the time and dedication it took to learn and employ that tactic.

 

When someone takes the time, to turn flight idiosyncrasies into an advantage, you know you are getting good info . . . especially when it mimics or closely mimics the real thing. :thumbup:

Pointy end hurt! Fire burn!!

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I made a compilation of my MiG-21 encounters (guns only) with various US airframes - F-5, F-15, F-16, F-18, all flown by AI set to "high" or "excellent". Rusty as I am, most of these encounters are fairly quick (I also can't aim to save my life). Again, the primary reason is how stupidly the AI flies. Watch how many times the AI makes moves that make you go "What the heck is this guy doing? Trying to get killed??". It'd take a very inexperienced DCS human player to make these kinds of mistakes and decisions. Anyway, hope you enjoy the video... :)

Doc

 

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Thanks, _Firefly. That was interesting. The "new" MiG certainly seems to keep up the F-5 (good job keeping AoA needle out the red). On occasion it looked like the F-5 was starting to out-rate the Mig, but you kept on right behind it. Of course, the F-5 is so tiny, hitting it is more a matter of chance than marksmanship - for me at least.

 

Glad you enjoyed it, sorry I didn't film more of it. I'm finally getting the hang of maintaining reasonable AoA throughout the speed envelope. With the new FM that's much easier than it used to be, as the aircraft gives you plenty of clues about how it likes to be flown. It feels... analogue and mechanical, just like it should.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again - IMHO the Fishbed is the best it's ever been. The fixed FM rejuvenated my interest in the plane and makes every flight on Alpenwolf's server a pleasure. Sure, there are some kinks still left to work out (ASP functionality, cockpit lighting etc.), but those are fairly minor complaints. Once again, many thanks to M3 for keeping this model up to date. Now, if only we could get the F-13 and the Bison in the game... :joystick:

DCS module wishlist: F-104S ASA-M Starfighter / F-111F Aardvark / F-4E Phantom II / J 35F2 Draken / J-7M AirGuard / Kfir C.2 / MiG-17F / MiG-21 Bison / Mirage F1 / Su-17M4 / Su-24M / Yak-9U

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^ Whenever the stable itself gets updated. Individual modules cannot be patched outside of core game.

 

No date estimations have been given though.

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

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