Possible update to cockpit switch interaction?

[Northstar98]

Hi everyone,

 

Would Magnitude consider updating how the player interacts with the cockpit switches to have more consistency with other modules? The majority of modules have switches that are moved forwards/upwards/right/clockwise with a RMB, and downwards/backwards/left/counter-clockwise with a LMB, in the MiG-21bis it's the other way around.

 

It's not hard to get used to how the MiG-21bis does things, it's just a little inconsistent - very minor, by no means game-breaking at all and in all honesty just a nitpick.

 

The other thing is the dimmers for the various warning light panels, at the moment it's either a high setting or a low setting, shouldn't it be variable across the full range, like an analogue axis? Allowing you to fine tune the brightness as desired? It's just at the moment the backlights are pretty bright (almost too bright) on high, to the point where it loses some legibility, while the low setting is pretty dim (as it probably should be). Again, pretty minor, more a nice to have if anything else.

 

Cheers!

Edited September 23, 2020 by Northstar98

[Hiromachi]

The other thing is the dimmers for the various warning light panels, at the moment it's either a high setting or a low setting, shouldn't it be variable across the full range, like an analogue axis? It's just at the moment the backlights are pretty bright (almost too bright) on high, to the point where it loses some legibility, while the low setting is pretty dim (as it probably should be). Again, pretty minor, more a nice to have if anything else.

 

Cheers!

That one is something I've been thinking of myself. I will forward your suggestion Northstar :thumbup:

[Northstar98]

That one is something I've been thinking of myself. I will forward your suggestion Northstar :thumbup:

 

Cheers Hiromachi, appreciated! :thumbup:

 

Anything on the switches? I guess it's a fair amount of work for not much of a gain.

[rossmum]

That would definitely be a really nice feature. I find that some of the day ones can be a bit hard to read, while others are good enough - an analogue dimmer axis would fix that. It affects a bunch of modules but having it in the 21 would really set it apart.

 

As for changing the switch direction... that might be a special options job. I've spent so long in the 21 that I've adjusted to it and any change would seriously screw my muscle memory up, but I definitely see how it can trip up people who fly it less or spend more time in other modules.

[Northstar98]

As for changing the switch direction... that might be a special options job. I've spent so long in the 21 that I've adjusted to it and any change would seriously screw my muscle memory up, but I definitely see how it can trip up people who fly it less or spend more time in other modules.

 

If it's going to be more difficult to transition to how other modules do it then fair enough, not much point having an option for switch directions (but hey who knows?).

 

I fly the MiG-21bis a fair bit, but I also fly other modules a fair bit too... Things like the L-39 have similar-ish controls, particularly for the RSBN, but after getting used to it in the MiG-21bis, I'll miss-click in the L-39 and vice versa. It's not a major problem, it's minor at best and you do get used to it quickly.

[Fri13]

The majority of modules have switches that are moved forwards/upwards/clockwise with a RMB, and downwards/backwards/counter-clockwise with a LMB, in the MiG-21bis it's the other way around.[/Quote]

 

As I do not use mouse for cockpit interactions I don't have that challenge.

 

But....

 

IMHO it feels proper that:

 

Left Mouse Button = Forward, Up, Left and Counter-Clockwise

Right Mouse Button = Backward, Down, Right and Clockwise

 

As Left mouse button is primary button in mouse. And all aircrafts and such the switches commonly are:

 

Back, Down, Left and Counter-Clockwise = default / Off position.

Forward, Up, Right and Clockwise = Enable / On position.

 

It would mean that left click = Activate / Turn On.

And so on Right Click = Disable/ Turn Off.

[Northstar98]

Fri13 said:

As I do not use mouse for cockpit interactions I don't have that challenge.

 

But....

 

IMHO it feels proper that:

 

Left Mouse Button = Forward, Up, Left and Counter-Clockwise

Right Mouse Button = Backward, Down, Right and Clockwise

 

As Left mouse button is primary button in mouse. And all aircrafts and such the switches commonly are:

 

Back, Down, Left and Counter-Clockwise = default / Off position.

Forward, Up, Right and Clockwise = Enable / On position.

 

It would mean that left click = Activate / Turn On.

And so on Right Click = Disable/ Turn Off.

Sure, only thing is to keep it consistent. i.e the same mouse click should move a switch in the same direction across all modules, and be consistent with whether or not they stop or keep cycling.

Here's what it currently looks like for the modules I've tested thus far. LMB means the module uses a left-click to move switches forwards/upwards/right/clockwise/increment and RBM means it uses the right-click to move switches forwards/upwards/right/clockwise/increment.

Where you see xxx cycle means that a maintained switch, when pressed multiple times by the same button, will keep going, returning to its starting position instead of stopping when it reaches an end point. In the case of 2 position switches, they move the same way regardless of whether or not you use the LMB or the RMB.

• A-10C: LMB (*apart from the selector on the intercom control panel), all switches cycle apart from the selector on the intercom control panel.
• A-10C II: RMB, 2 position switches cycle.
• AJS 37: RMB (*apart from the weapon selector and interval dials), 2 position switches cycle.
• C-101: RMB.
• F-5E-3: RMB, 2 position switches cycle.
• F-14A/B: RMB (*apart from nosewheel kneel/extend switch, IFF switches and MLC/Target size switches), 2 position switches cycle (only other switches that cycle are the ARA-63 channel selector and the master test selector but pretty sure they aren't supposed to reach physical stops).
• F-16CM: RMB (apart from altimeter mode switch), 2 position switches cycle.
• F/A-18C: RMB (*apart from LTD/R switch), 2 position switches cycle.
• FW 190 A8: RMB, 2 position switches cycle.
• JF-17: RMB, 2 position switches cycle.
• Ka-50: RMB (*apart from starter mode switch), all cycle.
• L-39C/ZA: RMB, 2 position switches cycle, R-828 selector cycles (should this reach a physical stop?).
• Mi-8MTV2: RMB (*apart from R-863 and R-828 preset channel selectors), 2 position switches and R-863 and R-828 preset channel selectors cycle (not sure if they are supposed to stop if you keep rotating them).
• Mi-24P: RMB, 2 position switches cycle, interesting is that the channel selectors reach physical stops unlike other modules.
• MiG-15bis: RMB, 2 position switches cycle.
• MiG-21bis: LMB, 2 position switches and channel selectors cycle.
• Mirage 2000C: RMB (apart from FCS and AP test switches), 2 position switches cycle.
• P-47D-30/D-40: RMB.
• P-51D-30: RMB (*except for the mixture and magneto), 2 position switches cycle
• UH-1H: RMB (apart from generator switch and voltmeter selectors), switches cycle unless it is a rotary switch.
• Yak-52: RMB

So most modules (at least the ones I've tested) use the right mouse button to move switches forwards/upwards/right/clockwise/increment and the left mouse button to move switches backwards/downwards/left/counter-clockwise/decrement.

Most modules have switches that cycle, but usually only for 2 position switches, which also operate the same regardless of when clicked with the LMB or RMB. Any other switch typically doesn't cycle and stop when they reach an end point (unless it doesn't have physical end points(?)).

Edited October 23, 2021 by Northstar98
formatting, added Mi-24P

[Fri13]

Sure, only thing is to keep it consistent. i.e the same mouse click should move a switch in the same direction across all modules, and be consistent with whether or not they stop or keep cycling.

 

Here's what it currently looks like for the modules I've tested thus far. LMB means the module uses a left-click to move switches forwards/upwards/right/clockwise/and RBM means it uses the right-click to move switches forwards/upwards/right/clockwise.

 

Where you see xxx cycle means that a maintained switch, when pressed multiple times by the same button, will keep going, returning to its starting position instead of stopping when it reaches an end point. In the case of 2 position switches, they move the same way regardless of whether or not you use the LMB or the RMB.

 

• A-10C: LMB *apart from the selector on the intercom control panel, all switches cycle apart from the selector on the intercom control panel.
  
• AJS-37: RMB (apart from the weapon selector and interval dials), 2 position switches cycle
  
• C-101: RMB
  
• F-5E-3: RMB, 2 position switches cycle
  
• F-14B: RMB, 2 position switches cycle (only other one that does is the ARA-63 channel selector and master test switch but pretty sure they aren't supposed to stop)
  
• F-16CM: RMB, 2 position switches cycle
  
• F/A-18C: RMB (*apart from LTD/R switch), 2 position switches cycle
  
• Ka-50: RMB *apart from starter mode switch, all cycle
  
• L-39C/ZA: RMB, 2 position switches cycle
  
• Mi-8MTV2: RMB *apart from R-863 and R-828 preset channel selectors, 2 position switches and R-863 and R-828 preset channel selectors cycle (not sure if they are supposed to stop if you keep rotating them)
  
• MiG-15bis: RMB, 2 position switches cycle
  
• MiG-21bis: LMB, 2 position switches and channel selectors cycle
  
• P-47D-30: RMB
  
• P-51D-30: RMB *except for the mixture and magneto, 2 position switches cycle
  
• UH-1H: RMB, switches cycle unless it is a rotary switch.
  
• Yak-52: RMB
  

 

So most modules (at least the ones I've tested) use the right mouse button to move switches forwards/upwards/right/clockwise and the left mouse button to move switches backwards/downwards/left/counter-clockwise.

 

Most modules have switches that cycle, but usually only for 2 position switches, which also operate the same regardless of when clicked with the LMB or RMB. Any other switch typically doesn't cycle and stop when they reach an end point (unless it doesn't have physical end points(?)). They also typically obey the RMB convention described above.

 

Excellent list and effort, thanks....

[rossmum]

If it's going to be more difficult to transition to how other modules do it then fair enough, not much point having an option for switch directions (but hey who knows?).

 

I fly the MiG-21bis a fair bit, but I also fly other modules a fair bit too... Things like the L-39 have similar-ish controls, particularly for the RSBN, but after getting used to it in the MiG-21bis, I'll miss-click in the L-39 and vice versa. It's not a major problem, it's minor at best and you do get used to it quickly.

 

For reference, the MiG-21 was the first module I flew, and out of ~2000 hours in DCS I think probably a bit over half are in the 21. I adjusted to it before I adjusted to any other modules, so if I hit switches the wrong way it's in the other modules rather than the MiG :D

[Jyge]

I am missing the dedicated On and Off positions and keybindings. Most of the keybindings are toggle switches. It is a real pain to map the stuff in something like Warthog HOTAS where I would like to have the switches always synchronous between my Joystick and the virtual cockpit. It is also that Mig-21bis lua(s) seem to be impossible to adapt to this logic.

[Northstar98]

 

Sad to read. I was really looking to just buy the 21, but wearing out my HOTAS switches with FC3 level controls logic simply is a deal-breaker.

It's 2020 and i won't clicky-di-clicky-di-click my 2/3-way switches to toggle, nor will i go off-stick to click most used switches with my mouse all the time.

 

What's stopping you from having one hand on stick and one hand on a switch?

 

And what switches are you needing to change "all the time"? In a fight it's only the weapons selector you really need to mess with during a fight, the rest should be set-up prior...

 

I mean, I don't even have head tracking or a throttle, I use mouse look to look around, and my set-up means I have to take my hand off the stick to move the throttle (via the keyboard) and to switch between mouse look and the cursor. It's pretty difficult to even look around/zoom while keeping my hand on the stick...

[UncleZam]

Have you guys tried to create own bindings for MiG-21 in aircraft Lua files? I know this borders programming and is cumbersome, but those Lua-configs are quite flexible. There's 11 page document explaining the process somewhere.

 

In fact I might give it a try next week, if I get a Warthog throttle by then.

[Jyge]

Indeed I have - I need to check it again as there has been changes apparently and I have not recently played with Mig-21bis. Last time I tried was that some switches at least reacted to left or right mouse click with toggle, in that case you can not use dedicated value 1 or 0 for on or off. I think there was a discussion way back about this. Unless it has been changed it is no-go. I will try to recheck it in the coming days, if I find time, then we can discuss a concrete example. It is not all switches, most important ones, like rotaries IRC, have dedicated positions - so basically the module is very much playable for primary functions. The On/Off switches on the right wall are one that gives you problems, but you need to switch them on or off once in a mission...