Cold War 1947 - 1991 *** Limited Edition ***

[QuiGon]

Round 3 will have no AMRAAM's, no ER's and no ET's. The Phoenix however becomes an issue now. It is a 70's missile. So maybe instead of 60 missiles at mission's start I make it only 24? Which would mean 6 sorties? Or is that too much to handle? I mean, in both rounds Blue planes managed to dodge 80-90% of those missiles. Or should I just remove them completely? Help me with that one, please.

I would keep the Phoenix, maybe lower its stock a bit. With the Patriot preventing high altitude operations near the frontline and most of the other aircraft hiding in the valleys, the Phoenix isn't that powerful as it is in more open and less restrictive environments, where long range BVR shots are much more viable.

[Shadow KT]

Don't know how many Tors there were, but I had only one under my control on the north side. So reducing that would mean zero.

 

Blue were severely overwhelmed in numbers trough out the whole session, that's the biggest cause why they would die to MiG-21s and F-5s... They would go in down low, alone and just get swarmed by a couple of jets.

 

I looked at the TacView, S-300 do not even come close to the lake in coverage and there were a couple of SA-6s a little bit closer, but I saw Blue jets flying way past the lake, especially on the South East side.

 

Once a radar of any sort is under 50% it stops working, so even tho that HARM shot didn't kill the Tor (I saw one left at 10% HP), it is rendered useless, which is what the task of the weapon is. Sometimes that might happen, when the HARM doesn't score a direct hit.

 

But Blue's performance was.... No coordinated HARM shots, it only takes two HARM shots at a TOR to overwhelm and defeat it, unless a commander switches the radar off and drives it off in time.

 

Only team play I saw from blue jets was a little bit of bait and switch on the west side of bullseye, which sometimes might not have even been intentional. Didn't see any ground strikes, covered by air either, but that might have been due to the lack of Ground Commanders and GCIs.

 

Blue has such a superiority in weapons, yet they use MiG-21 tactics.... 80 to 90 percent of the aircraft I saw were all hugging the tree line.... You have 4th gen + fighter aircraft, designed to fly high and fast, with tremendous weapon reach, yet the tactic of choice was to get in down low and personal to fight with the MiG-21s and F-5s....

 

Get high, get fast... with AIM-120Cs (which are absurd against, what we had and I still would like to see closer to realistic payloads for the time period), you can easily enforce no fly zones from 20nm away... give your strikers enough space to work on supporting BLUE ground units. It is not a MiG-21, the higher you are the easier it will be to see hostiles flying low. Add Fighter to Fighter Data-link and by staying high and organized you can create a superb DL picture.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Shadow KT

[Shadow KT]

It was also great to see how the blue 4gen aircraft performed rather poorly without AWACS compared to other servers like Blue Flag, where they often have incredible SA. That was interesting to see :thumbup:

 

Interesting how it all crumbles, when you actually make DCS players do even a tiny bit of "that pilot shit", right ?

 

We can thank popular air quake servers for that, which is basically all of them.

[NELLUS]

Round 3 will have no AMRAAM's, no ER's and no ET's. The Phoenix however becomes an issue now. It is a 70's missile. So maybe instead of 60 missiles at mission's start I make it only 24? Which would mean 6 sorties? Or is that too much to handle? I mean, in both rounds Blue planes managed to dodge 80-90% of those missiles. Or should I just remove them completely? Help me with that one, please.

 

I think the F14B should head back to the Blue side.. as much as I would like to see it on the Red side(F14A). It brings allot of confusion to the field.. unnecessary question marks during the heat of the battle, which often lead to a friendly kill or ignoring the threat when in a merge for the Blue.

 

Phoenix is a majestical weapon, which in the right hands will suppress any airforce. We can give it a try, in limited amounts, on the next round and see how it works out.

 

Any chance on brining in the Viggen and AV8B?

Edited September 25, 2020 by NELLUS

[Specter]

 

Get high, get fast... with AIM-120Cs (which are absurd against, what we had and I still would like to see closer to realistic payloads for the time period), you can easily enforce no fly zones from 20nm away...

 

That is easy to do when available missile numbers are large and sending the bandit defensive is the aim (no pun intended) but when missile numbers are limited the last thing you can afford to do is spamram in the vague hope of a kill so getting in close and dirty is the only option giving the bandit little time to defend.

 

Because CA is used for GCI and missile launches are visible to the GCI, totally unrealistic by the way, the only way to realistically get a kill is as I said above.

 

I would like to see how everyone would cope with this mission if the more realistic LotATC was the only source of GCI.

[Shadow KT]

That is easy to do when available missile numbers are large and sending the bandit defensive is the aim (no pun intended) but when missile numbers are limited the last thing you can afford to do is spamram in the vague hope of a kill so getting in close and dirty is the only option giving the bandit little time to defend.

 

Because CA is used for GCI and missile launches are visible to the GCI, totally unrealistic by the way, the only way to realistically get a kill is as I said above.

 

I would like to see how everyone would cope with this mission if the more realistic LotATC was the only source of GCI.

 

So 240 AMRAAMs is not enough for you :megalol:. Last I checked sending the bandit defensive is the aim of the mission, so your strikers can work. It is not a kill contest.

 

Even so, "spamming" your AMRAAM is not required. Things like MiG-21s don't even know what its locking them up. With the updated AIM-120s, reacting only when the missile is in pitbull on you, most often than not will result in you dying. Saying that the only way of getting kills is flying low is just not correct.

 

I don't call out missiles and Alpen was the other GCI, who was quite busy controlling ground units and GCIing on two frequency, even if he could call out every missile, there was so much happening it would be either impossible or counter productive.

 

If you keep flying low, spamming all your missiles, chasing kills, getting swarmed by multiple MiG-21s, resulting in loss of your aircraft and the rest of the equipment you had loaded, even an unlimited warehouse won't help you.

 

If people don't go in with the mindset of how they can improve to do better and work together as a team, instead of complaining that they cannot take the path of least resistance, then nothing will change. That's not a pilot's mentality.

 

Up to you to decide how you will continue, but I would try to listen, if even my opponent is trying to help me out do better.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Shadow KT

[Alpenwolf]

No place for the Viggen here, I'm afraid. The Blue's have enough to deal with. The last thing they'd need is Viggen's sneaking up on their ships. So many factors in such a small region would result in chaos. Besides, and while keeping the scenario of the mission in the back of our heads, the US Navy suddenly and quickly reacted to the Syrians who has occupied Kiryat Shmona "... in a Blitzkrieg manner...", so there would be no time for the Syrians to conjure up some anti-ship jets out of nowhere. There is a reason why I take my time and write these scenarios. Without a story line backing up the mission things end up being pointless and limitless. At least to me. Hence every mission of the currently 30 missions on the Cold War server has a story to tell.

The Harriers are a possibility for future rounds. Just not yet.

Some clarification maybe:

 

While aerial battles will always be a major attraction for the average DCS player, in this mission the focus is hardly laid on that. Imagine Red had only one tank. Just one! And one cmdr slot. Just one! Against Blue with all they have. And that tank manages to somehow penetrate through and capture and hold the Netafim military base for the required 12 minutes, RED WINS!!! So it really doesn't matter how many jets shoot down whatever type of jets.

Therefore, it is vital for F-16C and mainly F-18C pilots to understand the importance of their role providing CAS for Israeli Merkava tanks. Which makes the CAP role of the F-15C's even more vital. Now I might've made it too difficult for Blue with all these SAM units, but the way most Blue pilots were flying around, and like Shadow has pointed out some valid points, didn't look like a coordinated teamwork and it wasn't. I'm not scolding those who were flying on Blue. How could I when the mission's scenario is very much dependant on a coordinated teamwork. Which is why I welcomed ViFF's approach of him wanting to bring along the Israeli community to occupy every single Blue slot. I can only hope they'll find a suitable date for them so we can, and in my opinion, for the first time test the mission's sceanrio before making any changes. Yes, I said I will reduce the numbers and change things. But honestly, the mission hasn't yet been used to its full potential to figure out exactly and not rashly what should be changed. If the Israeli community (or any other community willing to fly Blue) shows up, then I might keep things as they are. If not, round 3 will include the changes I talked about earlier knowing that a well coordinated teamwork as it would be among squadron members might not be the case.

I hope that makes sense.

[Mustang]

Just as a note: blue side had Mike Delta providing GCI early on in the mission (not sure if he was moving units around too) he was doing a great job but he had to step away leaving the few of us on blue quite disorganized and unsure of what was coming from where (someone else was in a GCI slot can't recall the callsign but we hardly heard from him on comms) so we had to try make the best of a bad situation.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Mustang

[NELLUS]

No place for the Viggen here, I'm afraid. The Blue's have enough to deal with. The last thing they'd need is Viggen's sneaking up on their ships. So many factors in such a small region would result in chaos. Besides, and while keeping the scenario of the mission in the back of our heads, the US Navy suddenly and quickly reacted to the Syrians who has occupied Kiryat Shmona "... in a Blitzkrieg manner...", so there would be no time for the Syrians to conjure up some anti-ship jets out of nowhere. There is a reason why I take my time and write these scenarios. Without a story line backing up the mission things end up being pointless and limitless. At least to me. Hence every mission of the currently 30 missions on the Cold War server has a story to tell.

The Harriers are a possibility for future rounds. Just not yet.

 

Got you, makes sense when you put it like that :thumbup:

[Alpenwolf]

Just as a note: blue side had Mike Delta providing GCI early on in the mission (not sure if he was moving units around too) he was doing a great job but he had to step away leaving the few of us on blue quite disorganized and unsure of what was coming from where (someone else was in a GCI slot can't recall the callsign but we hardly heard from him on comms) so we had to try make the best of a bad situation.

Mike-Delta, like many players, has a game related problem with the Syria map. His game crashes from time to time so I think it wasn't fun to continue like that. And he did move some ground units in the beginning. I had hoped for an update for the Syria map two days ago but there was none.

I know Mike-Delta. He operates as GCI and moves around Blue units very often on the Cold War server. A very tough Combined Arms opponent.

Shame there is that issue with the Syria map.

[The_Tau]

Round 3 will have no AMRAAM's, no ER's and no ET's. The Phoenix however becomes an issue now. It is a 70's missile. So maybe instead of 60 missiles at mission's start I make it only 24? Which would mean 6 sorties? Or is that too much to handle? I mean, in both rounds Blue planes managed to dodge 80-90% of those missiles. Or should I just remove them completely? Help me with that one, please.

 

I would keep very few units of phoenix so that f14s should fly with 2 of them max per sortie. Also I would give them AIM7Fs and AIM9Ls as Iranians didn't had access to newer missiles.

[Specter]

I know Mike-Delta. He operates as GCI

 

And he is 1st rate at it. He told us he was unwell last night. Hope he is feeling better today.

[Mordants]

I enjoyed watching it via Mustangs channel.

[Shadow KT]

For the AIM-54s... I would say leave em as they are. As you said yourself, they get defeated quite easily

[rossmum]

Teamkills on both sides, mainly MiG-29's and F-14's doing that.

 

A very important note to the guys in the 29s: you cannot IFF without your radar. If you subscribe to the "low altitude EO only" meme, and you shouldn't because it's pretty dumb and not what the aircraft is designed to do, at least pulse your radar when you lock someone and check for "A" return in the bottom left of the HUD (for Russian; I don't know what the English HUD displays, maybe "A" as well). "ASV" - looks like "ACB" if you can't read Cyrillic - means friendly.

 

Default radar IFF symbology is the same as the MiG-21, - means unknown/hostile and = means friendly. The width indicates size (e.g. -- is an enemy fighter, ==== is a friendly tanker/AWACS, and a single - is usually a HARM, AGM-84, JSOW, or similar). EO mode will not give you IFF returns and will display all contacts as hostile regardless of actual identity, and its contact sizing is based on heat signature rather than radar return (= approx. contact size).

 

The best bet to avoid teamkills is use the radar (like Mikoyan intended), use both sensors in cooperative mode (you need to lock something first to turn on the second system in DCS, it's very annoying but worth it), or as said above, strobe the radar to get IFF.

 

Cooperative mode is king, because the WCS will decide based on its current radar and EO status which sensor is best to track the target. If the EO lock is strong enough it will go essentially radar silent, using it only for limited ranging data and IFF, and the enemy aircraft will not get a lock tone.

[NELLUS]

A very important note to the guys in the 29s: you cannot IFF without your radar. If you subscribe to the "low altitude EO only" meme, and you shouldn't because it's pretty dumb and not what the aircraft is designed to do, at least pulse your radar when you lock someone and check for "A" return in the bottom left of the HUD (for Russian; I don't know what the English HUD displays, maybe "A" as well). "ASV" - looks like "ACB" if you can't read Cyrillic - means friendly.

 

The MiG 29A has this issue, that it will sometimes show you an A but it is still a friendly aircraft.

Has happened to me a few times, and luckily enough I recognized the smoke trail from the 29 which is really characteristic. The same happened with the MiG 21.

Don’t even get me started on the Tomcat.

 

The optical radar is great, but one need to engage the radar for verification as Rossum mentioned.. even though it will occasionally misinform you.

[Alpenwolf]

Tiberias 2.0:

 

- No AMRAAM's, no ER's, no ET's, no T's.

- Instead of 60 x AIM-54A-MK47, 24 missiles only and only at Damascus airbase.

- AIM-9M's for F-18C's only. The rest has AIM-9L's.

- AIM-7M's for the Tomcats. AIM-7M's and AIM-7MH's for Blue.

- R-73's available but limited in numbers.

- Instead of 96 x MiG-21's, Red has 64.

- Instead of 60 x F-5's, Red has 36.

- Instead of 24 x F-16C's, Blue has 36.

- Instead of 12 x KUB sites, it's now 8 and not too close from the borders.

- Instead of 12 x Tors, it's now 8 and only 2 escorting Red tanks instead of 4.

- Instead of 6 x Strelas escorting Red tanks, it's now 2 only.

- Shilkas remain unchanged.

- The 2 x SAM SA-10 sites remain. 1 at Damascus airbase and 1 at King Hussein Air College.

- Syrian T-55's and Russian T-80's only. No T-72's.

 

NOTE:

Haven't heard again from the Israeli community (hope they're doing well), so round 3 is probably going to be on this Saturday around 1830 zulu and open for everyone.

I'll confirm the date in a day or two.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Alpenwolf

[Alpenwolf]

Round 3:

Saturday, the 3rd of October, 1830 zulu with the above mentioned changes included.

[ViFF]

Haven't heard again from the Israeli community (hope they're doing well), so round 3 is probably going to be on this Saturday around 1830 zulu and open for everyone.

 

Hi Alpenwolf, sorry for delay in response, been some crazy days for us with our holidays and just normal real life preoccupations with family and work.

 

It looks good for this Saturday Oct 3rd for quite a few of us to attend, so we will trickle into the server at around the start time and cooperate with the guys that will already be there. Please don't make any special allocations for us. We would just like to participate with everybody as we normally do in all your cold war missions which are all brilliant and capturing.

 

PM sent for setting up a specific date and venue regarding what we discussed earlier.

 

Cheers :)

[Alpenwolf]

Hi Alpenwolf, sorry for delay in response, been some crazy days for us with our holidays and just normal real life preoccupations with family and work.

 

It looks good for this Saturday Oct 3rd for quite a few of us to attend, so we will trickle into the server at around the start time and cooperate with the guys that will already be there. Please don't make any special allocations for us. We would just like to participate with everybody as we normally do in all your cold war missions which are all brilliant and capturing.

 

PM sent for setting up a specific date and venue regarding what we discussed earlier.

 

Cheers :)

Hi, ViFF!

 

PM sent back :smilewink:

[TOViper]

I'll join up if time permits, I was thinking of flying the F-5E-3 again.

Looking forward excited ... :)

[QuiGon]

Round 3:

Saturday, the 3rd of October, 1830 zulu with the above mentioned changes included.

That's a great time and my Track IR is fixed, so I'm ready to roll. :joystick:

[Tacticalpascale]

Looking forward to it.

[Alpenwolf]

Red Won!

 

 

Summary:

Many Red tanks survived.

Ka-50's were for the first time (unlike round 1 and 2) very effective! So maybe more Merkava tanks next time? Israeli SA342M's?

Blue were mostly outnumbered. Without the AMRAAM's Red planes were always sneaking up on Blue fighters, even MiG-21's did so "easily".

F-5's weren't flown much tonight.

No F-18 pilots in the beginning, so no SEAD and no CAS.

 

 

 

Here's the butcher's bill:

 

16 x MiG-21's were lost (64 available)

02 x F-5's were lost (36 available)

13 x MiG-29's were lost (24 available)

01 x F-14's were lost (24 available)

04 x Ka-50's were lost (12 available)

 

36 x F-15's were lost (36 available)

24 x F-16's were lost (36 available)

06 x F-18's were lost (24 available)

[TOViper]

Unfortunately I didn't make it, just came in a few minutes ago, f... .

Are there plans to continue this series?

I fear that the next Saturdays my working schedule might make it not possible for me. :cry: