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Community Poll For Bugs/ Reports


Community Poll For Bugs/ Reports  

87 members have voted

  1. 1. Community Poll For Bugs/ Reports

    • Keep it the way it is, sort through the posts and update very single one.
    • Start looking at cleaning out whats there and look at a new way of presenting the various stages


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Good evening everyone Zack ( aka Elmo here. I have a question for all of you and I would like your feedback on.

 

As many of you are aware in the forums some bugs can be pushed down the line as repetitive reports come in. This can be quite alot for devs to handle even as as Community Manger. For an easier and simpler way to go about this Id like to know if you thing that we should spend the time and go through each and every post to address or acknowledge the issues at hand, OR should we wipe clean the threads ( or archive) completely and start new after the next patch. I'd like to hear what you guys think would be easiest. Perhaps we don't and I spend hours going through and rechecking every post as needed which would take time. Perhaps we wipe whats there and have you guys resubmit old bugs or new ones from scratch so theres no denying that they are still there after the patch? Maybe we make three completely separate sections per module for new / existing bugs, solved bugs, or bugs that may not necessarily be bugs and require a more in depth response to explain why they exist.

 

I look forward to reading your responses and have a poll up to show if people want to see change or whether we should carry on and use the system in place as is. This way you the community can work together to help us make the experience here better.

Know and use all the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass.

 

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Not the best of approaches to begin your tenure and suggest erasing anything. Over the past week we have seen some poor behavior and before that bugs were shown to be deleted or moved to resolved only to be proven to remain unresolved. The community created this spreadsheet of reported bugs with links to forum reports.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4279093&postcount=1

 

And when ED mods this week asked about missing features this thread was created.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=285495.

 

You are "new" and folks are willing to give you a chance. It would be helpful to agree that redoing what has already by been done by the community here on the forums will not be received as moving forward in a positive manner if you ask us to do it again.

 

Familiarizing yourself and culling the data from what has been reported to present it to your bosses will go a long way in restoring trust.

 

 

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Thats why I want to open the discussion. I want to know where peoples thoughts on the matter are or alternatives to what exists to better help the community make sense and the team better focused. I appreciate the work and effort everyone is putting in. Many hands make light work. However I want to find a solution that doesn't have too many foremen and not enough workers if that makes sense. Ill take a look at that thread and see what I can make of it.

 

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I'm voting to stay the way it is.

I would for the time being follow tea_cipher and BigNewies lead. Do what the do.

A lot of the old threads are probably going to to get resolved with listed updates from the Status thread. But I would pick a few of them everyday and check if they are still broke and go through the routine. But don't get bogged down and get behind on new ones.

 

 

I like to see the tags on the threads that tell me a cursory glance whats going on with the bird. [invetigating][reprted][need trak]....

 

 

And don't let people treat the bug section as a general chat.

 

 

And don't touch the Brass!

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Would suggest to use bkthunders community bug tracker as a list of all "potential" issues. I am aware there are things listed, that never were a bug, as well as things more related to Wishlist and things already fixed, but at least by going through the list we won't miss anything.

Best may be to verify the list in chunks and transfer valid bugs into a new structure as "Reported"? Issues listed, that need verification, to be sure it is a generic bug listed as "Needs verification", so the community can test and give more details. In the end it may be great to mark stuff that is "fixed" in a patch to "fixed in patch dd-mm-yy" and have the option to reopen it if it resurfaces for whatever reason.

New bugs should go through the verification, list as "reported" if valid bug, as well. Do not create a "solved bugs" section, as it helps to find info about already reported/fixed stuff and potentially reduces multiple bug reports on the same issue and if a bug is popping up again, after a patch it's easier to refer to the fix and timeline of events.

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@Elmo, something your predecessor never understood and immediately acted extremely acidic about was that I made the community bug tracker to help him/razbam (though you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped!).

 

If your intentions are sincere, as I hope, I have no problem giving you access to the bug tracker. You can use it as you need as that's its real purpose: to help razbam solve bugs.

 

 

P.S. I voted "Keep it the way it is, sort through the posts and update very single one."

We had enough malicious thread moving/deletion in the past. The community bug tracker has a link to the forum posts and I encourage you to read the "readme" page where it clearly states what is added and how.

The forums should stay the official place to report bugs, and posts marked [reported] [fixed] etc. as it happens for all other modules. I don't see a reason why Razbam would need to deviate from that rule.

 

Thanks, welcome and I hope you will do well here. As you can tell you're jumping right into a storm.

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Honestly, the bug section is a completely mess.

I would appreciate it, if after the next patch everything is set to 0 and that all bugs should be submitted again in a "new" section.

It would then also probably be easier to keep track of them.

 

But please: Don't delete the old ones, just archieve them - so if the bug is still present, a small post which leads to the old topic can be made.

Some of the reports have a lot of work - tracks, videos, descriptions etc. If the bug is still there, this work should not be wasted.

Edited by viper2097

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There are people here that have literally spent hours upon hours posting bug reports.

Don't waste all of that.

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But please: Don't delete the old ones, just archieve them - so if the bug is still present, a small post which leads to the old topic can be made.

Some of the reports have a lot of work - tracks, videos, descriptions etc. If the bug is still there, this work should not be wasted.

 

I agree with Viper, with a minor modification. Rather than link the old thread, merge them and move it back to the “active” folder for visibility and ease of access.

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I have not yet made my mind up on this topic. But I want to urge very strongly that nothing gets deleted here!

 

If the "clean slate" approach is to be established, then only move the old bug reports to a (read-only) subforum so that they still can be searched and referenced. Do not delete anything.

Did you know? True Harrier fans contribute to the AV-8B Community Bugtracker!

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Ok, now I put some thoughts into this. My suggestion: Keep it as it is - but better.

 

Bug reports of other modules are tagged with something like [reported], [no bug], [investigating], etc. When this was established a few years(?) ago, it was a substancial improvement, but it was and still is not perfect.

 

Good is, that one can see right way if a thread was seen by the testers/developers. Also good is, that a tag like [reported] helps the community to shift to other issues, knowing that this bug report is already being taken care of.

 

But other module bug forums still have some inconsistencies. For example, sometimes nothing but a tag is added to a bug report thread. That is not enough. Tagging a thread should always be accompanied by a respective posting in the thread. That way, the chronolgy of what happened is preserved. For example if new evidences for a bug appear after the thread was tagged [no bug], or if a .TRK was provided after the tag [track missing] was added. Without preserved chronology it is even harder to get the attention of the testers/devs back to such bug reports.

 

Also, in other bug forums, threads get sometimes closed after receiving a "final" tag. This is also very contra-productive (see example above).

 

Helpful would also be a reference to the internal bug tracker - not for us, but for the testers/devs. If a bug report is tagged [reported], it should be accompanied with a posting in the thread, stating the bug tracker id. This makes it easier to cross-reference them (as opposed to some probably obscurely abbreviated bug report titles). You can jump directly to your bug tracker entry from a bug posting and you can also navigate from the bug tracker to the posting by using the forum search function with the bug tracker id (if you haven't copy&pasted the url).

 

And finally, for now, define a consistent set of tags and use only those. For example, use only one of [track required], [track missing], [no track], etc.

 

Using consistent tags and preserve the chronolgy within the threads is way better than moving threads around between subforums as more information is preserved. Use bkthunders community tracker as a starting point. And once trust is re-established in this procedure and bug reporting in general, people will dig up older bug reports that might now get overlooked in the initial phase of reorganisation...

 

I can imagine, this is a huge task, looking into every bug report and so on, but this has to be done either way. Hopefully the backlog of bug reports gets smaller fast so that everything will be a bit easier to handle.:thumbup:

Edited by Flagrum

Did you know? True Harrier fans contribute to the AV-8B Community Bugtracker!

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I'll try to keep my answer as short and concise as possible. You need a bug-tracking tool. The forum is not and never will be that. People are sloppy, hurried, and lazy. It's like if at tax-time you pull out the cardboard box you've been dumping all your papers into and start working through and finding it full of suff from last year, advertisements -- some of which you used to write down important information, so you can't just throw them away -- and year for year, everything lands in the same box; it's totally disorganized and gets worse every year, unless you just say, everything below 5 inches in is probably irrelevant, so I just won't dig deeper than that. Maybe it works, and maybe you screw yourself.

 

But tools are only as good as the master using them. Since you cannot grant access to a bug tool to every person in the forum, you need to forum as your big, cardboard box, to allow everyone to drop their bills, etc. into. Then you need to sort, and that starts with marking the thread as a bug -- if it actually reports one -- every time. If it's an already reported bug, it would be good if important information is in the redundant thread is moved to the actual thread. It may be a good idea to edit thread names to better reflect the actual bug. It may be necessary to split thread if multiple bugs are reported -- there is far too much, "oh, and another thing I saw..."

 

Managing a community is not just being cordial and friendly, but organizing the community and the resources they provide, and that's a lot of work.

 

Be consistent, and be concise, and straight forward so that everyone knows where they stand with you. That will bring you a long way. Nothing is worse than feeling ignored and not knowing where you stand with someone else.

 

What ever you do here in this wilderness of a forum, I wish you success and that you will enjoy the work with the community.

 

Best of luck to you.

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Not the best of approaches to begin your tenure and suggest erasing anything. Over the past week we have seen some poor behavior and before that bugs were shown to be deleted or moved to resolved only to be proven to remain unresolved. The community created this spreadsheet of reported bugs with links to forum reports.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4279093&postcount=1

 

And when ED mods this week asked about missing features this thread was created.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=285495.

 

You are "new" and folks are willing to give you a chance. It would be helpful to agree that redoing what has already by been done by the community here on the forums will not be received as moving forward in a positive manner if you ask us to do it again.

 

Familiarizing yourself and culling the data from what has been reported to present it to your bosses will go a long way in restoring trust.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Seems some people will be unhappy no matter what 'approach' this developer may take. You still wouldn't be happy it seems. Why not take a positive approach, you might get what you are asking for, but then again some people never know what they want :rolleyes:

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Seems some people will be unhappy no matter what 'approach' this developer may take. You still wouldn't be happy it seems. Why not take a positive approach, you might get what you are asking for, but then again some people never know what they want :rolleyes:
Positive approach is my intent and I hope everyone can see it as a mediating factor. I need everyone's help to accomplish this and I think we're all ready to do so.

 

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Know and use all the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass.

 

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Yeah, I chose go through everything but archival is a close second. Don't delete them. They're useful for referencing back, since work's already been done identifying and troubleshooting issues.

 

Deletion will be perceived as trying to intentionally hide something.

 

 

Completely agree with that. Deleting the bug threads will not be seen as a good move, for good reasons too. Some people have put a decent amount of time in making bug reports (including community bug trackers and lists).

 

I'd honestly say to start with the community bug tracker. It is still the biggest and best bug list and tracker available currently for the Harrier.

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Seems some people will be unhappy no matter what 'approach' this developer may take. You still wouldn't be happy it seems. Why not take a positive approach, you might get what you are asking for, but then again some people never know what they want :rolleyes:

 

 

I have taken a positive note with every developer in DCS and bought every module, some with no intent to ever fly, just to support the developers. That's the positive carrot I provide in this business relationship.

 

The suggestion of "wiping" away reported bugs and missing features was prompted by the new CM. This is reminiscent of past problems.

 

The work has been done to bring together the forum reports, in a single document, to make the job of responding as easy as possible. I hope Elmo takes to the time to read all of them and adopt the standard set by ED by adding to each original forum post linked; [reported], [not a bug], [Fixed].

 

I feel sorry for Elmo that the list has been allowed to grow as large as it has. I feel for him that the community bug tracker is a product Zeus and Prowler view as a negative. It doesn't change that each item has been reported by a customer and deserves to be looked at.

 

Moving forward doesn't mean forgetting the past, as that is a guaranteed way to repeat history.

 

 

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Great to have your input guys. No I won't be looking at completely deleting the previous threads that took everyone so long. I simply received various suggestions from people and wanted to see what others thought. The post titles and suggestions were simply made to create the conversion. I love the response you guys have given and it will all be taken into account when I press forward with talking the bug threads.

 

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Know and use all the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass.

 

— Dave 'Preacher' Pace, USN.

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Why is a basic easy to read, easy to update bug tracking system not goal #1?

 

Seems to work well for Mag3/Leatherneck. Sure they don't Get to a lot of them, but it's all quick and easy to see what has and hasn't been reported, and where things are with each issue. Handy both for Customers, and developer alike.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=156810

 

I mean look at this, as a user I notice a problem, go to the bug tracker, and either there it is, or new bug to report.

https://leatherneck-sim.mantishub.io/view_all_bug_page.php

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Hi Elmo,

 

First point is definitely not delete, this would not be good for referencing back and on that alone i voted to keep it the way it is purely for this reason.

 

I am of the opinion that a more efficient and concise list of all bugs need's to be tabled, something along the community bug tracker which was great, or for that matter the original Razbam one, albeit the latter this time needs to be filled with the actual issues.

 

Doesn't have to be rocket science however need to be able to see;

 

Date reported | Issue | Razbam receipt | Coder assigned and date | Feedback /development notes | Released to OB Date | Resolved confirmation from community | Stable release/Closed date.

 

Theoretically this is something ED should be looking at also for the core, plus other modules. It would save a lot of repeated and painful communication of threads and questions on discord etc.

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Honestly, the bug section is a completely mess.

I would appreciate it, if after the next patch everything is set to 0 and that all bugs should be submitted again in a "new" section.

It would then also probably be easier to keep track of them.

 

But please: Don't delete the old ones, just archieve them - so if the bug is still present, a small post which leads to the old topic can be made.

Some of the reports have a lot of work - tracks, videos, descriptions etc. If the bug is still there, this work should not be wasted.

 

 

This would be my vote. I didn't vote in the poll since there isn't an exact option. Looking forward to seeing if you can turn around the Razbam community relationhip. No snark or sarcasm intended:thumbup:

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Honestly, the bug section is a completely mess.

I would appreciate it, if after the next patch everything is set to 0 and that all bugs should be submitted again in a "new" section.

It would then also probably be easier to keep track of them.

 

But please: Don't delete the old ones, just archieve them - so if the bug is still present, a small post which leads to the old topic can be made.

Some of the reports have a lot of work - tracks, videos, descriptions etc. If the bug is still there, this work should not be wasted.

Exactly this! :thumbup:

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I think it would be better to :

 

1) extract all the bug post titles, post author, date and url and create a google doc with that.

2) sort the table by author and descending date

3) add a rating field : annoying, very annoying, terrifying annoying, missing feature

4) publish the google doc link here (keep a safe copy on your disk also :)

5) ask the authors to put a checkmark on bugs/feature that must be considered and rate them

 

As you'll see, the bugs have been publish for the most part by the most knowledgable people about the Harrier and people not happy with the current state.

 

 

Then, I would archive the current Bug section and create a clean new one with entries for each bug confirmed in the google doc

 

 

Other subject and personal opinion that will not be very popular I think :

 

Don't publish a bug tracker !

 

Customers must only be bound by trust, good communication, bug fixing, fair module description on the website and a working shopping cart to push the trigger. It works very well for some 3rd Parties.

 

If you solve these issues, it will pay for sure.

 

Not an easy start for you but I wish you the best !

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You need a bug-tracking tool. The forum is not and never will be that.

 

This, so many times.

 

A significant part of my job is to maintain an open source project on behalf of my company. We have a very little community (like, the "active" users can be counted with just one hand) so the metric is certainly different here, but we're still talking about software after all, so I think that a proper bug tracking tool (there are a lot of free ones around) would be something to consider IMHO. Of course, being an external tool, people would have to make their own account somewhere else, but I like to think that a person who's interested in submitting a bug report does that in order to improve the product, and signing up for a different account is something that can be accepted.

 

Only, please: avoid something like the "community bug tracker" you had before at Razbam in your website: apart from the tool itself, that I really didn't like from a user experience point of view, you guys only used to show us what you were doing and what not, and not in a timely manner anyway since you didn't seem to update it that often.

 

I, as a customer, don't need to get to "peek" on the items in development from time to time (because, by the way, you guys were updating that board only from time to time... some times it needed a few weeks to get an update). As a customer, I would love to interact with the development team, propose issues and comment on those, have a constructive discussion. Of course, in order to do so, the dev team (or at least someone from Razbam) would need to use that tool in order to keep in touch with the user base.

 

I know, again, that we're not talking about open source here, and that this is something that implies a lot of changes for a lot of people involved, but if we're talking about transparency in development and make issue reporting useful, I honestly think that this has a lot of potential.

 

Then, in my dream world, this service should be something directly maintained by ED itself, available for each and every released or EA module, and integrated with the forum identity, so that new accounts would not be required, but I'm dreaming for far too much I'm afraid.

 

Well... I had to say that. I hope that my idea makes at least a little sense to someone. If not... well, again, I had to try to propose this :)

 

EDIT: I somehow missed RustBelt's message at the end of the previous page:

 

Why is a basic easy to read, easy to update bug tracking system not goal #1?

 

Seems to work well for Mag3/Leatherneck. Sure they don't Get to a lot of them, but it's all quick and easy to see what has and hasn't been reported, and where things are with each issue. Handy both for Customers, and developer alike.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=156810

 

I mean look at this, as a user I notice a problem, go to the bug tracker, and either there it is, or new bug to report.

https://leatherneck-sim.mantishub.io/view_all_bug_page.php

 

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I wasn't aware that someone else already tried it (I only knew about Frontier Development, the guys behind Elite Dangerous, as a game developer with a public bug tracker), but hell yes, this is THE WAY to go for me.

Edited by Lorthirk
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