Tomcat FAQ - pls give us your input

[Bremspropeller]

On 10/21/2020 at 4:32 PM, DblGonzo said:

 

I was in VF143 from 81-85 the glove vanes had already been disabled on all of our jets.

 

Those 143 demos in '86 have the vanes out, though:

 

 

 

[IronMike]

11 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

So just to recap, no external visual differences between 95, 135 early and 135 late, right? (TCS not taken into account here). 

 

I need to check with Cobra, but I think early+95 and late will have different tails and some other minor stuff differently. But don't quote me on it, please, I'd need to verify first. We might also include glove vanes for the early 135, but we haven't fully decided yet. It's a lot of work, for little to no benefit.

Edited February 1, 2021 by IronMike

[IronMike]

10 hours ago, Quid said:

The Block 135 should not be representative of the F-14 in the late 1970s/early 1980s because the first Block 135s were not delivered until April 1985, and the last March 1986.  Based on its feature list, the Block 135 Early would be representative of an F-14A from about 1985-~1995. The TCS was introduced in 1981 to the fleet after testing in the 1970s through ACEVAL/AIMVAL, so it pre-dates even the earliest Block 135 Tomcat; this doesn't mean it was always installed, always up, always needed, etc. so yes, there are plenty of pictures of F-14s with bullet fairings installed after the mid-1980s, but unless it was broken, unneeded, not enough available, etc., it would have been standard equipment by the time the 135 was around.

We need different names to make them available separately in DCS. Hence we implemented these "block versions". However, Tomcats irl were extremely patchworked. That means many units exhibited left overs from previous variants, upgrades from following ones, etc... Should we include the glove vanes to the early 135, think of it a bit as if the earlier block versions would be incorporated as well. Hence I spanned the period later 70s to early 90s... None of this is to be taken too literally, because again, no Tomcat was ever so clear cut. Likewise, we name the IRIAF version "95", because it makes it easier to have it in the module as a different variant (and with the removed functions and the actual IRIAF versions being 95s, it makes it an obvious name choice). But none of this is meant by us to open a pandora's box of following exact listed features for this or that variant, as that didnt exist like this as clean cut irl. On the contrary, as with the B, and as stated many times from the get go, each of our Tomcats spans a very brought period to incorporate what was most common throughout this entire timeframe. This is why the B spans a time frame preceeding its "date of birth" and also the 135 early and late span time frames preceeding their "birthdates". Maybe it would be more accurate to say something like "the features included in the early 135GR span a time period from the late 70s to late 80s" etc... but it's also splitting hairs, a bit.

Edited February 1, 2021 by IronMike
I said variants, I meant units, 2nd sentence

[Quid]

12 minutes ago, IronMike said:

We need different names to make them available separately in DCS. Hence we implemented these "block versions". However, Tomcats irl were extremely patchworked. That means many variants exhibited left overs from previous ones, upgrades from following ones, etc... Should we include the glove vanes to the early 135, think of it a bit as if the earlier block versions would be incorporated as well. Hence I spanned the period later 70s to early 90s... None of this is to be taken too literally, because again, no Tomcat was ever so clear cut. Likewise, we name the IRIAF version "95", because it makes it easier to have it in the module as a different variant (and with the removed functions and the actual IRIAF versions being 95s, it makes it an obvious name choice). But none of this is meant by us to open a pandora's box of following exact listed features for this or that variant, as that didnt exist like this as clean cut irl. On the contrary, as with the B, and as stated many times from the get go, each of our Tomcats spans a very brought period to incorporate what was most common throughout this entire timeframe. This is why the B spans a time frame preceeding its "date of birth" and also the 135 early and late span time frames preceeding their "birthdates". Maybe it would be more accurate to say something like "the features included in the early 135GR span a time period from the late 70s to late 80s" etc... but it's also splitting hairs, a bit.

 

Ah, understood.  Thank you for the further amplification.  

[IronMike]

Just now, Quid said:

Ah, understood.  Thank you for the further amplification.  

 

Anytime, bud!

[captain_dalan]

4 hours ago, IronMike said:

 

I need to check with Cobra, but I think early+95 and late will have different tails and some other minor stuff differently. But don't quote me on it, please, I'd need to verify first. We might also include glove vanes for the early 135, but we haven't fully decided yet. It's a lot of work, for little to no benefit.

 

Roger that. I agree with you,  it's better to tell in advance so people don't have false expectations as you mentioned.

[IronMike]

Yeah, hence we mention the glove vanes in the FAQ.

[Spartan111sqn]

First of all, thanks for this impresive product, I love it, I am a fighter combar sim fan (I am coming from BMS hardcore), and I think it is on the good track.

 

I have already post it my input on another thread and I would like to put it here also. I would like to know your feedback about it.

 

Make as much atonomous as possible a pilot with Jester is also good, enjoying with several tomcats on line is as cool as be two human seaters also.

 

Keep pushing with it.

 

P.S.: as said many people would pay a complete module for F-14D, I know about the topic, just for your to keep in mind 

[LanceCriminal86]

The clearer -95 and 135 differences visually should be wrapped up in:

 

- Beavertail

- ALQ-126 antenna by intakes

- Both the -95 and "early" 135 will need the older gun vents [not NACA]

 

@IronMike If the Iranian -95GR is going to essentially take the -135 Early and then turn things off, why can't there also be the -95 using the same resources for the US that just doesn't have them turned off? Can the disabling of systems on the Iranian jet and restricting of munitions not be handled with configs in some way to allow both to coexist?

 

For the 80s and into the 90s it seems to me the US -95 would for our purposes of what DCS models basically be the as-built -135 without the ALQ-126 ECM antennas. If all those did was enhance ECM capabilities, and DCS apparently doesn't really do ECM beyond on or off, it seems that there shouldn't really be anything under the hood stopping a US -95 with the same config you planned for the early -135.

 

I'm certainly digging around to try and find more solid details of what was changed between blocks -95 and -135, and while I'm sure there isn't a perfect timeline showing incremental updates done to older blocks by 1981 or 1989, it sure seems like a missed chance to provide a proper analogue of the 1981 Sidra Tomcats.

 

I get it, lots of this wasn't originally planned, but we also thought we were getting more Forrestal-class ships and now that's up in limbo.

 

So I guess my core question is: Can DCS currently or maybe in the near future use date filters and country to turn systems and available weapons on and off? If so, why not leave the door open for the -95 to be useable by the US, or rather have the -95 be US and then turn stuff off for Iran? I mean the Lantirn stick appears/disappears in the cockpit when you equip/unequip the Lantirn, can a similar function be used for what I described?

 

And I suppose my follow-on ask then is can Cobra and co explore using the description.lua to load the -95 external model on the -135? If we can't have it as its own dedicated block then at least finagle a way to drop the -95 on top of the -135 via skins/lua since, by what I'm seeing, they should be the same underneath short maybe some reduced ECM capability on the -95.

[IronMike]

4 hours ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

The clearer -95 and 135 differences visually should be wrapped up in:

 

- Beavertail

- ALQ-126 antenna by intakes

- Both the -95 and "early" 135 will need the older gun vents [not NACA]

 

@IronMike If the Iranian -95GR is going to essentially take the -135 Early and then turn things off, why can't there also be the -95 using the same resources for the US that just doesn't have them turned off? Can the disabling of systems on the Iranian jet and restricting of munitions not be handled with configs in some way to allow both to coexist?

 

For the 80s and into the 90s it seems to me the US -95 would for our purposes of what DCS models basically be the as-built -135 without the ALQ-126 ECM antennas. If all those did was enhance ECM capabilities, and DCS apparently doesn't really do ECM beyond on or off, it seems that there shouldn't really be anything under the hood stopping a US -95 with the same config you planned for the early -135.

 

I'm certainly digging around to try and find more solid details of what was changed between blocks -95 and -135, and while I'm sure there isn't a perfect timeline showing incremental updates done to older blocks by 1981 or 1989, it sure seems like a missed chance to provide a proper analogue of the 1981 Sidra Tomcats.

 

I get it, lots of this wasn't originally planned, but we also thought we were getting more Forrestal-class ships and now that's up in limbo.

 

So I guess my core question is: Can DCS currently or maybe in the near future use date filters and country to turn systems and available weapons on and off? If so, why not leave the door open for the -95 to be useable by the US, or rather have the -95 be US and then turn stuff off for Iran? I mean the Lantirn stick appears/disappears in the cockpit when you equip/unequip the Lantirn, can a similar function be used for what I described?

 

And I suppose my follow-on ask then is can Cobra and co explore using the description.lua to load the -95 external model on the -135? If we can't have it as its own dedicated block then at least finagle a way to drop the -95 on top of the -135 via skins/lua since, by what I'm seeing, they should be the same underneath short maybe some reduced ECM capability on the -95.

 

 

Because that is exactly the 135 early. Why should we maintain a second one of it, just under a different name? We name them early 135 and 95 IRIAF, so we can have them as separate modules, again, do not get too hung up about the names. It would be kinda redundant to make the 95 available for US as well. The one visible difference, will likely be the aerodyn cover. In that sense it makes much more sense to make it available as an option for the early 135, than making another module. We won't do a 4th module in that line of Tomcats, because it means more maintenance and just more work that hasnt been planned and cannot fit our schedule. We could also call them just "early A" "late A" and "Iranian A" to emphasize that a bit better maybe. But 135GR late and early and 95IRIAF fits as well, and is more in line with the Tomcat nomenclatura of variants. But that's where we put the lid on it. That is already 2 modules more than we promised, and as for the ships: in large parts it means changing the markings on the sides, plus some minor differences, so it is likely you will get all 4 in time.

As for the last part, I don't think that is as easy. Rest assured, we will try to make everything as accessible and optional as we can, but also within reasonable limits. At some point over-developing stuff just gives diminuishing returns, even for us, no matter how much we love it and how deep into the rabbit hole we like to go, we need to measure off a rope length that let's us come out again, too. I hope you guys can understand that. The Tomcat module already includes about 400% more content than common modules for the same or similar price. That's a 4x bigger sacrifice on our part, for approximately the same income, roughly put. And at some point we need to think about the future again, too. Already, due to the nature of DCS, each product binds a part of our lives away for basically a lifetime, to keep these modules maintained. Each module we add, increases that amount. It takes away time from what more we can do. The Tomcat is sure one of our greatest achievements, also personally for most of us. Be we don't want to end up saying it was the best we ever did. We need to also evolve at some point and continue to do even greater things and add even more stuff to the world of DCS... I know, it is hard to believe there is anything greater than the Tomcat, hahaha... But nonethelss: thank you all for your kind understanding.