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Razbam/ED please clarify - Is the Harrier out of EA and consequently complete?


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@NineLine I can tell you for myself, with the way things appear, I'm getting closer to just walking away entirely from DCS. I'm going to watch and see how this all turns out, but I have more games than I can play, some news ones coming out this year, and I'll just move on.

 

That is entirely your choice, and we would be sad to see anyone go, all we can do now is our best to move things forward and get things back on track. Thanks.

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AV/8B+ -prob 3 years away Mig-19S - not going to be soon its not a great plane tbh Mirage 2000-5 - when ED sorts out ground radar yes but again a few years off   AMX - just needs coding and will

Let me ask you, as someone that has been a very strong critic of RAZBAM, your approach so far, how has it worked out for you? Do you feel like you have pushed them to be better over the past couple of years? Do you think doubling down on your anger towards them will help bridge communications?

 

You always say that I only critic Razbam. Have you also found my hundreths of posts which got ignored by them completely? Like all other posts and bug reports?

People don't get mad about anything in one day it is a long lasting process.

The more something is important for you, and the more arrogant and not caring the other one is, the faster and stronger you get mad.

 

You are right, a discussion is always better then being angry. But you can't have a discussion when the other is not listening, but instead gives arrogant words.

And at least, in my anger, I started this thread. And luckily it seems to change something.

 

And it is not too much, to ask for an official statement after ONE WEEK while they only post arrogant statements and lies on their own discord!

I want to know how they think they can fix this farce now, end especially until when.


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That is entirely your choice, and we would be sad to see anyone go, all we can do now is our best to move things forward and get things back on track. Thanks.

 

I have full faith that you and everyone else at ED are trying very hard to find some kind of solution to all of this. Even then, I am concerned that this will result in perhaps a six month long burst of meaningful progress and communication and then we will end up right back where we are now. This cycle isn't a new one and that is the part that I think some of us are really concerned about.

 

We know that you are in a tricky position because you are kinda stuck in the middle with all of this. To be bluntly honest, RAZBAM themselves should really be handling this and not you. The question I have is what happens if we end up in this situation again a handful of months from now? I know you can't speak for RAZBAM but maybe you could tell us where ED stands on this kind of thing. Is there a system in place that can help soften the blow of a worst case scenario?

 

Again. I really don't like being negative here and I am choosing my words pretty carefully so that I don't step on anyone's toes but this isn't the first time this has happened and while I hope it will be the last time, I also hope that if it isn't, ED has some kind of plan or system in place to get people what they bought and payed for. I mean, as far as RAZBAM is concerned, the Harrier is out of early access and while I am aware that they have stated that they will continue to update and support the module through "product sustainment", I am still getting pretty worried that I have been waiting a long time for a complete module that will never happen. Hopefully I am wrong but if I am not, I would like to know that ED is willing to step in and have a stance on things.

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You always say that I only critic Razbam. Have you also found my hundreths of posts which got ignored by them completely? Like all other posts and bug reports?

People don't get mad about anything in one day it is a long lasting process.

The more something is important for you, and the more arrogant and not caring the other one is, the faster and stronger you get mad.

 

You are right, a discussion is always better then being angry. But you can't have a discussion when the other is not listening, but instead gives arrogant words.

And at least, in my anger, I started this thread. And luckily it seems to change something.

 

And it is not too much, to ask for an official statement after ONE WEEK while they only post arrogant statements and lies on their own discord!

I want to know how they think they can fix this farce now, end especially until when.

 

 

I think you need to re-read what I said, I never said you only criticize, but when you do you are quite strong in that. I only said that while RAZBAM needs to make the biggest effort, everyone else could as well.

 

Please note that Decoy is still an official member of RAZBAM, and while I want Ron to spend more time here as well, its un fair to say no one from RAZBAM has fielded anything here.

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Nineline,

 

Sarcasm isn't necessary, I take commercial contracts seriously, and I don't believe that a company that treats their customers the way Razbam does deserves to do business when national assets are in play. It's not a threat or a smear; I am encouraging people with connections to real world military VR training programs to let decision makers know how Razbam treats people -- I will be doing that with the guys I know who handle VR training and are always looking for options. I also believe that informed markets are necessary for healthy competition, and that spurs a better product for everyone. This isn't an extreme position, as I fear you interpret it to be by your response, but a position rooted in caring deeply about the best possible companies doing work for our training needs.

 

Cheers

 

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I said, there is still an official statement missing. That is something different then anyone from Razbam posting anything anywhere.

 

+1 i think what is being meant is that nothing has been posted about from Razbam with any substance, and nothing from the management. We have a few words from the ex moderator on why he chose to leave, which in fairness if we are evaluating why we are here then he himself has to own and take responsibility as part of that process on failed communication. You can find a post i put out in June of this year alerting to the fact of growing resentment and that things had to improve. Nothing was done, infact you will note Decoy posted nothing at all throughout July. This is not being critical, its just stating the facts as they are.

 

Anyway history is done, it was good to see him post something however it didn't really provide anything just a statement blaming these forums for being toxic as a reason for him leaving. I do not see how this will engage the genuine concerns and zero customer support received.

 

Nineline and Bignewy as you can tell your efforts are always appreciated, but it really is for Razbam management to come to the support forum, as per the link in the sales page and discuss with the community. They however seem to be beyond that. It is becoming farcical.

 

How they cannot apologise for the comments they have made is beyond any logical reasoning.

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This was not meant as an insult. You seemed to be more and more obsessed about something. After all, it's Saturday night. You can't be serious about the money part. There are people for whom even the 35 $/Euro sale price has a certain value.

 

I can full well be serious about the money part, and I am. And I haven't stated that 35€/$ doesn't have value, I stated that to me spending that on a module that interests me, even if it doesn't turn out to be anything else than a giant pile of poo, is a risk I'm willing to take.

 

If 35€/$ is too much for other people, that's their business and not mine. Maybe then should reevaluate their spending-habits if it's that much of a burden financially. I know I've had to in the past, heh.

Regards

Fjordmonkey

Clustermunitions is just another way of saying that you don't like someone.

 

I used to like people, then people ruined that for me.

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Well, Razbam are what they are and at this point I don't see any reason to expect anything from them, be it an official statement or else.

Honestly, whatever they say has no weight, actions speak louder than words (or silence in this case) and 3+ years have clearly shown what Razbam can and cannot do.

You can't possibly extract something from them if they just don't have the necessary skills to do it.

 

So let's start to talk about ED's role here:

 

  • Has ED evaluated Razbam's ability to deliver to a DCS-level standard when enrolling them?
  • Consequently (and provided this evaluation was done), why was a this developer given the go-ahead to develop and extremely complex aircraft such as the VTOL Harrier?
  • Why, again, is ED trusting Razbam to deliver an even more complex aircraft, such as the F-15E (again, given their track record)?
  • What is ED's position on selling a product on their official store page, which literally doesn't match the description?
  • What is ED's plan to deliver what we paid for? (Yes, it's out of early access, so I am expecting exactly what I paid for at this point - a study level sim - and any EA excuse is invalid).

 

For example, Razbam is incapable of coding a working FPM (flight path marker / velocity vector) on their HUD, despite releasing a "bug fix" that didn't correct anything.

Is ED going to help razbam with the coding, in order to fix this basic bug on a fully released product sold on the official store, with the DCS logo on it, for $70?

 

 

These are the questions we should be asking at this point, and I hope ED will give an official statement.

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The wheels of the bus go round and round... I get the feeling that this is going nowhere.

 

And before @viper2097 comes telling me again that I'm not using the harrier... I do use the other modules and I wanted to purchase a lot of their upcoming modules so it is my business and problem as well.

 

But honestly: ED is in touch, and the only thing missing is a statement from razbam. And while i would like to see that as well, I go with nineline: threatening legal actions will not improve anything in terms of communication.

 

So... maybe we should all relax a little bit, have a little faith in ED and let them do their work. We will See where this is going...

 

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Okay. Been following this thread for a while now, occasionally saying something myself. I feel that it is going round in circles now, so I will check out and leave you all to it.

 

In summary for me: I am very interested in the AV-8B module. During COVID lockdown I've been spent time in it, for the first time since buying it. Superficially it is good, but the more you go through the tutorials the more you discover quirks where things are not working. At first you think "What am I doing wrong" only to discover that actually you are running into a systems issue or bug that is not fixed. Is it unusable? No. But it is sometimes very frustrating. And at the moment it does NOT meet my expectations.

 

Rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, complain and give up on the module, I would rather seen Razbam work to bring the module up to the good quality standard set by other DCS modules. There is a lot of good work already done on the AV-8B, so it seems stupid to devalue all that good work by leaving things unfinished. I want it fixed. Eagle Dynamics getting involved to help Razbam achieve this sounds very constructive to me.

 

I think moving the AV-8B out of Early Access unfortunately sent a very wrong message to paying customers like me. I also thing that Razbam plowing on with one or two dozen other projects also sets an impression of a lack of focus. I get that the artwork done on various pipeline projects does not take the resource of the coders required to work on the Harrier, but regardless it sends the wrong message.

 

I am interested in the Lightning and Sea Harrier that Razbam has teased. If any other developed were working on these I would likely buy them during Early Access. However given that these are Razbam projects I will not be buying either until the AV-8B reaches a level of maturity significantly advanced from where it is now.

 

There are a number of very well argued and constructive comments and criticism on this thread. (Some of it was kinda angry, but I understand why. Hey - people are free to express themselves how they want. But my experience is that throwing toys around should be done only on exceptional situations if you want good outcomes). It should really give Razbam the information they need to polish the Night Attack Harrier to the level it needs to be. I wish them luck. If they ignore the community feedback I can't see this will end well for them. And it damages Eagle Dynamics reputation to have a developer underperforming so badly. I'd rather see fewer, very high quality modules on DCS rather than numerous quality compromised modules.

 

Checking out. I am off to fly my Viggen.

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Here's the thing ! As you have seen a few users here always troll Razbam with hate and seem to attack everything they do.

 

Bkthunder and viper for example !

 

Then they expect razbam to interact with them , that's Not going to happen.

 

You don't spit in someone's face and expect to be invited for a coffee. They chose to stick to discord and Facebook due to this

 

Just saying !


Edited by =DECOY=


 

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Here's the thing ! As you have seen a few users here always troll Razbam with hate and seem to attack everything they do.

 

Bkthunder and viper for example !

 

Then they expect razbam to interact with them , that's Not going to happen.

 

You don't spit in someone's face and expect to be invited for a coffee. They chose to stick to discord and Facebook due to this

 

Just saying !

 

tenor.gif?itemid=4846929

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I'm no longer paid by razbam I'm freelance for a few devs now and can say what I like bud.

 

All im saying is this community has a select few who always stoke the fire with fuel. You only have to look at their profile pages to see the 100's of posts targeting razbam with nothing but aggression


Edited by =DECOY=


 

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And your response just now, is an example of who razbam hires, what they think of the community and their concerns, and how they handle themselves with their public faces regardless if you're working for them or not anymore.

 

If you're upset because of a funny, yet apt meme, think how irritated customers that have been ignored, derided, and even blamed for wanting the product they paid for 3 years ago must feel.

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And your response just now, is an example of who razbam hires, what they think of the community and their concerns, and how they handle themselves with their public faces regardless if you're working for them or not anymore.

 

If you're upset because of a funny, yet apt meme, think how irritated customers that have been ignored, derided, and even blamed for wanting the product they paid for 3 years ago must feel.

 

 

Grow up!

 

As stated im free to have my own views just like you. If you don't like it then don't read it.

 

I'm nothing to do with razbam anymore



 

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Here's the thing ! As you have seen a few users here always troll Razbam with hate and seem to attack everything they do.

 

Bkthunder and viper for example !

 

Then they expect razbam to interact with them , that's Not going to happen.

 

You don't spit in someone's face and expect to be invited for a coffee. They chose to stick to discord and Facebook due to this

 

Just saying !

 

I have done a community bug tracker to help YOU, dear sir, keep track of all the bugs that I and other have reported and that you buried under the carpet.

 

 

As for expecting something, I AM THE ONE THAT PAID.

I don't owe you anything, it's the other way aroud and once you start to understand that, maybe, just maybe, it may dawn on you and your team that this is a business and not a charity, and we are paying customers.

I expect what I paid for. That's it.

 

Honestly you better keep these kind of posts to yourself because that's a clear demonstartion of why things with the Harrier have gone the way they have.

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I have done a community bug tracker to hepl YOU, dear sir, keep track of all the bugs that I and other have reported and that you buried under the carpet.

 

 

As for expecting something, I AM THE ONE THAT PAID.

I don't owe you anything, it's the other way aroud and once you start to understand that, maybe, just maybe, it may dawn on you and your team that this is a business and not a charity, and we are paying customers.

 

Honestly you better keep these kind of posts to yourself because that's a clear demonstartion of why things with the Harrier have gone the way they have.

 

That we're paying customers doesn't immediately mean that we can be as muppety as we want, which is something this thread excels at.

 

Yes, people are angry, and angry people lash out. Well enough, but when said lashing out morphs into lashing out for the sake of lashing out, we get absolutely nowhere. Again something this thread is an excellent demonstration of.

 

How about we all sit back, wait for ED and Razbam to sort this mess out and for RB to actually make a damn statement about it? Or are we just going to sit in our respective mudpool and fling mud at eachother like children? And yes, I know I've done my part in flinging said mud.

Regards

Fjordmonkey

Clustermunitions is just another way of saying that you don't like someone.

 

I used to like people, then people ruined that for me.

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I have done a community bug tracker to help YOU, dear sir, keep track of all the bugs that I and other have reported and that you buried under the carpet.

 

 

As for expecting something, I AM THE ONE THAT PAID.

I don't owe you anything, it's the other way aroud and once you start to understand that, maybe, just maybe, it may dawn on you and your team that this is a business and not a charity, and we are paying customers.

I expect what I paid for. That's it.

 

Honestly you better keep these kind of posts to yourself because that's a clear demonstartion of why things with the Harrier have gone the way they have.

Its not. He is free to say whatever he wants. To take his opinion as private person and take that as a sign of whats going wrong is not right in any way.

 

As I said - this thread is going nowhere and should be closed because its simply too emotional. @NineLine give razbam a deadline regarding a statement and close this down. Its getting off track here.

 

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How about we all sit back, wait for ED and Razbam to sort this mess out and for RB to actually make a damn statement about it? Or are we just going to sit in our respective mudpool and fling mud at eachother like children? And yes, I know I've done my part in flinging said mud.

 

I'm not the one who just called a customer a troll, so that advice should be directed to someone else here :music_whistling:

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How about we all sit back, wait for ED and Razbam to sort this mess out and for RB to actually make a damn statement about it?

 

 

Normally I would agree with this, but it's been almost a week since this whole thing blew up. A statement should have come already and given RB's consistent lack of communication, I don't expect one to come at this point.

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I'm not the one who just called a customer a troll, so that advice should be directed to someone else here :music_whistling:

 

Ah yes, the old "He started it!"-arguement. Ever heard about taking the high road and not resorting to childishness?

 

Normally I would agree with this, but it's been almost a week since this whole thing blew up. A statement should have come already and given RB's consistent lack of communication, I don't expect one to come at this point.

 

Fair enough and I agree with you, but I'm pretty sure that most of this thread proves Razbams point about why they don't come to the boards.

Regards

Fjordmonkey

Clustermunitions is just another way of saying that you don't like someone.

 

I used to like people, then people ruined that for me.

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