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Razbam/ED please clarify - Is the Harrier out of EA and consequently complete?


viper2097
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Thanks, this is the type of feedback that helps get the answers you guys are looking for, I am redirecting these all to RAZBAM.

 

ARBS...

 

I can take-off, fly and land in all forms, but I can't really do conventional combat like drop Mk.82 bombs on target, fire rockets accurately, use TPOD for observations or searching.... Then are problems with 14-bit mini-stick sensor slew "stickiness" that doesn't exist with a 8-bit hat (likely a DCS problem) as CH Throttle hat is not problematic but MCG hat is.

 

Those are my main problems. There are long lists reported in this thread as well all over places, but the Harrier stays down as long as its sensor suite - THE sensor system, is broken. It is not nice that after overfly a DMT points suddenly miles away to some other location. DMT and TPOD designates itself randomly on some locations when undesignating target or slewing around. That system thinks there is over 500 seconds time to target when it is 2 miles or you even fly over the target, so you can't get launch authorization. The rocket popper points somewhere completely else than impact points, with or without DMT lock, and perfectly flat terrain.

 

I don't anymore even try to do Night Attacks because systems do not work even in daytime.

All these has been reported to Razbam, without replies and just ignored.

 

I like Harrier more than Hornet or Falcon, and it is just frustrating when it is so badly broken that it can not do combat.....

I can reinstall DCS as many times I want, on any number of computers and same problems existed.

 

All I want is that Razbam fixes the problems. If it requires rewriting everything in the ARBS/DMT/TPOD then so be it.

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Just had to chime in.

 

To me this is clear as day that history is repeating itself. Much of the the complaints I see in regards to the Harrier and the (mal)practices of Razbam was brought to light by the M-2000C community prior to this (IIRC already 2 years ago).

 

To be honest I believe that at some point ED should really begin to consider their partnerships beyond the short term monetary gains, moving from a tactical to strategic perspective. Is this really a partner will contribute to the long term success of the ED/Fighter Collection brand? When ED is having to direct man hours to manage 3rd party PR issues (that have a negative spill-over effect staining the core product) I believe its time to part way.

 

I made the decision two years ago to not invest any more funds towards Razbams offerings hoping I was not of a niche opinion and that the problem would "self regulate"; i.e. Razbam not being a factor moving forward.

 

I stand by that choice and I'm content with not being personally invested in this latest debacle with the Harrier. I am however viewing this from the viewpoint of a ED supporter hoping that the time has come for this to be sorted out. Any decision made in this matter should ideally produce clearer guidlines for future partnerships towards 3rd parties.

 

I believ thats about my two cents worth of thoughts and ramblings..

 

Sincerely...

mobua

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I doubt any party would want to walk away. After what happened to VEAO and the Hawk, EDs policy now is if a 3rd party dissolves/ leaves DCS then the aircraft/ code would have to be bought or given to ED. At least that’s the way I understood it

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I think the best thing to do at this time is to wait for RAZBAMs statement on this and go from there.

 

 

Im not in the team thinking the Harrier is "unplayable" or being mad and so but... 3 days? They are sleeping where? Mars?

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If I'm not mistaken, the hawk situation made things pretty simple in that it's the responsibility of ED as well as third-party as partners ,that ensure quality control. If that is not the case anymore then it's pretty obvious to me what the solution is....don't buy anymore modules...period.

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Im not in the team thinking the Harrier is "unplayable" or being mad and so but... 3 days? They are sleeping where? Mars?

 

I have myself pushed for them to take time, look, this relationship is strained, you guys are mad, they are mad back, the communications has gotten to a poor place. If they don't consider their words and action going forward, and don't review concerns you all have, then this will just end up a bigger mess.

 

Believe it or not, these guys love doing this stuff, and want to put our stuff they can be proud of, this is not easy for them to swallow either. You guys can choose to ignore me, but giving them time to really be thoughtful about this is better than a kneejerk response. Trust me, for a while I was CEO of kneejerk responses.

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We don't choose what aircraft are done by what developers. And I personally still am confident they can get it to where it needs to be.

 

At this point you are more hopeful than any if us, maybe in 10 years when it finally leaves EA it will be somewhat oke. I agree with BKthunder, such a shame to see such an iconic aircraft get ruined due to incompetence. Afaik ED still decided if a 3rd Party gets the license to an aircraft, shame they allowed to wrong team to do it and didn’t choose to do it themselves [ED].

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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I have myself pushed for them to take time, look, this relationship is strained, you guys are mad, they are mad back, the communications has gotten to a poor place. If they don't consider their words and action going forward, and don't review concerns you all have, then this will just end up a bigger mess.

 

Believe it or not, these guys love doing this stuff, and want to put our stuff they can be proud of, this is not easy for them to swallow either. You guys can choose to ignore me, but giving them time to really be thoughtful about this is better than a kneejerk response. Trust me, for a while I was CEO of kneejerk responses.

 

This is the right way forward. Constructive and it gives the folks at RAZBAM opportunity to meet expectations. Thank you for getting involved.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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you guys are mad, they are mad back

 

 

Why are they mad? We're literally the very definition of "perfect clients"

 

We've all brought one or more of their products AND are engaged with them (or in this case their 3rd party Partner ED) about their software...to the point that people are even assisting them gratis on bug ID & tracking most of us are happily looking for an excuse to buy future products from them if current issues can be resolved...

If that makes them MAD...what kind of customers would make them happy?

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Believe it or not, these guys love doing this stuff, and want to put our stuff they can be proud of, this is not easy for them to swallow either.

 

 

I believe they are all outstanding artists, in their own fields, but their organizational and communication skills are lacking. I spent time in their discord, and I noticed that it's a different culture. It lacks a degree of professionalism.

Flying the Viper Viggen

IYAOYAS


 
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:mad:

For me, thats the final nail in the coffin.

 

....no more Razbam from now on

 

no MiG-19

no F-15E

no MiG-23

no A-29 Super Tucano

no South Atlantic Map

no OV-10 Bronco

no Sea Harrier FRS.1

no Mirage-III

or any other wet dream from Razbam. They lost a customer. In DCS and FS2020 or any other Game.

 

+1, When I buy the m2k it was a joke. Today is still a joke but no more money for Razbam.So pity this "developers" engage in this so amazing modules. They have shown they do not care about sim develop.

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Why are they mad? We're literally the very definition of "perfect clients"

 

We've all brought one or more of their products AND are engaged with them (or in this case their 3rd party Partner ED) about their software...to the point that people are even assisting them gratis on bug ID & tracking most of us are happily looking for an excuse to buy future products from them if current issues can be resolved...

If that makes them MAD...what kind of customers would make them happy?

 

My statement was over-generalized, as is yours. The bottom line is communications have broken down, and neither side is in a good place. Believe it or not, when you work on something like this and are passionate, harsh criticism hurts and can put people on the defensive. You can argue if it's justified, but it doesn't matter at this point, we have a breakdown, and we (ED) are trying to make it better.

 

Many of the issues right now are really poor communications, and that needs to improve, if you suggest everyone's approach on the customer side has been 100% reasonable, then we might still need to do some work. We have laid out to RAZBAM that comms need to improve on their side greatly as well.

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Believe it or not, when you work on something like this and are passionate, harsh criticism hurts and can put people on the defensive. You can argue if it's justified, but it doesn't matter at this point

 

 

I've been an Enterprise Account Manager for a Software Co in the past...and believe me...I'd rather have a Customer that came back and told me what was wrong...than one that smiled and walked away...

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I believe they are all outstanding artists, in their own fields, but their organizational and communication skills are lacking. I spent time in their discord, and I noticed that it's a different culture. It lacks a degree of professionalism.

 

From what I have seen, I would tend to agree, and we have been discussing that as well. I felt some of it yesterday myself. I have also seen a few individuals be over the top as well. You may suggest a paying customer can act however they want, I would disagree. But I think, for the most part, most everyone here has been open and willing to work forward, I hope that continues on both sides.

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I've been an Enterprise Account Manager for a Software Co in the past...and believe me...I'd rather have a Customer that came back and told me what was wrong...than one that smiled and walked away...

 

Look, no one has ever said that telling someone here something is wrong is bad. But if you do it in a mean, immature manner, then it is bad. You still treat people how you want to be treated, even on the internet.

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From what I have seen, I would tend to agree, and we have been discussing that as well. I felt some of it yesterday myself. I have also seen a few individuals be over the top as well. You may suggest a paying customer can act however they want, I would disagree. But I think, for the most part, most everyone here has been open and willing to work forward, I hope that continues on both sides.

Agreed

Thanks for taking care of that list of mine.:thumbup:

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If this is true, we have to be a way less polite with RAZBAM, if they want to be treated like they do with customers and ED staff on their Discord.

 

As I said, it's a two-way street, and you can only control your own voice. I have pointed out a number of issues with comms on their side. I hope the rest of us can self manage.

 

Rising above is much more satisfying at the end of the day.

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Surely, but surely a proper Manual is an absolute bare minimum requirement before leaving EA...even if there are future systems to be implemented/polished

Crazy they could even consider calling it out of EA (even if not feature complete) without a manual...its meant to be a study sim...what are you supposed to study?

I truly hope this isn't something being run up the flagpole to see if they can get the F/A18C out of EA without a manual...

 

I wonder how many people have ever read an ED manual, I mean, compared to the people who fly a DCS module. In my years flying simulators, the average of those I know come to ask first how to do this or that, or to watch videos on YouTube, than to read a manual. Many here have given extreme importance to this, in a digital world in which documentation can be done in a thousand ways, and not necessarily written. :book:

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My big concern right now is that the communication issue goes much, much deeper than not getting on the forums (which really should be a requirement in the contract if it is not already) or even the elevated emotions and rather rude statements. I think the big issue is that they really need to be more forthright about what they think a finished, realistic, full fidelity module looks like when it leaves early access.

 

When ED or even other third parties announce a module, there is usually a understanding that there is a certain standard of fidelity/realism that should be met. Sometimes things need to get fudged for secrecy's sake but generally we know that when we buy a full fidelity module from ED, Heatblur, and Deka, we are going to get a simulation of a specific aircraft that has been heavily researched, sourced, and recreated to at least mostly match the standards set by ED.

 

With RAZBAM, I get the impression that they are not willing to do that to the same level that other DCS developers are. It seems like they didn't really expect the expectations for detail to be so high. I mean, it kinda makes sense since they were coming from FSX where the standards are very different and they didn't really have to work on a still developing/evolving product (like DCS World as a whole).

 

So maybe now is the time for ED to have a serious talk with them about the expectations they should prepare to work under and what kind of methods they should work on adopting to meet those expectations.

 

Given their track record, I fear that the F-15E release will be a very controversial affair for the larger DCS community so it might be a good time for ED to nip some current behaviors and approaches in the bud before they become a much, much larger, much more visible problem.

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I wonder how many people have ever read an ED manual, I mean, compared to the people who fly a DCS module. In my years flying simulators, the average of those I know come to ask first how to do this or that, or to watch videos on YouTube, than to read a manual. Many here have given extreme importance to this, in a digital world in which documentation can be done in a thousand ways, and not necessarily written. :book:

 

I absolutely love manuals, when I worked in the printing industry I would have them printed, I always have Acrobat Reader open to a DCS or real-life manual. Now sometimes you can't beat a Redkite video or one of Wags, etc, but I still love to read about the systems as well. A flight sim without a manual isn't a sim, so I am all for getting my hands on Baltic Dragon's work.

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I can totally see that based on how they have been communicating with you all, and the difference in how they communicate with us right now (ED) is how they should be doing that, its a big issue and getting a big push from us.

 

It is a skill to deal with people though, and not everyone has the skills for it, and some can't learn it. Even on the customer side, so it needs work, and again, I can't stress how much we are stressing that to them.

 

The fact that HB released a nice update today is good as well, we need more of that from all 3rd Parties, communication when done right is invaluable.

 

 

My big concern right now is that the communication issue goes much, much deeper than not getting on the forums (which really should be a requirement in the contract if it is not already) or even the elevated emotions and rather rude statements. I think the big issue is that they really need to be more forthright about what they think a finished, realistic, full fidelity module looks like when it leaves early access.

 

When ED or even other third parties announce a module, there is usually a understanding that there is a certain standard of fidelity/realism that should be met. Sometimes things need to get fudged for secrecy's sake but generally we know that when we buy a full fidelity module from ED, Heatblur, and Deka, we are going to get a simulation of a specific aircraft that has been heavily researched, sourced, and recreated to at least mostly match the standards set by ED.

 

With RAZBAM, I get the impression that they are not willing to do that to the same level that other DCS developers are. It seems like they didn't really expect the expectations for detail to be so high. I mean, it kinda makes sense since they were coming from FSX where the standards are very different and they didn't really have to work on a still developing/evolving product (like DCS World as a whole).

 

So maybe now is the time for ED to have a serious talk with them about the expectations they should prepare to work under and what kind of methods they should work on adopting to meet those expectations.

 

Given their track record, I fear that the F-15E release will be a very controversial affair for the larger DCS community so it might be a good time for ED to nip some current behaviors and approaches in the bud before they become a much, much larger, much more visible problem.

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