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Razbam/ED please clarify - Is the Harrier out of EA and consequently complete?


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Ah seems after a wonderful sleep the problem seems to have only gotten more complex...welp sorry but I gotta do it to'em.

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Thank you for you patience in this multi day issue Nineline and others, I know your hands are probably tied when it comes to what you can say and ask.


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AV/8B+ -prob 3 years away Mig-19S - not going to be soon its not a great plane tbh Mirage 2000-5 - when ED sorts out ground radar yes but again a few years off   AMX - just needs coding and will

@nineline

 

So maybe you can also get some clarification for us what "year" the raz harrier is supposed to be. I mean seriously its "sekrit"?

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The only thing that has changed in the last 18 months is that I've given up on Razbam completely. https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3933228&postcount=173 was the way I feel now, minus any care any more. Withheld purchase of the Mig19, because they have refused to talk to the forums, substantially, for over a year inorder to explain themselves. I'm sad that the Mig23 will never be something I can fly, ever. Same with the SHAR. I dont even care if they finish the features now, makes no difference.

 

Harrier isnt as bad as is made out, yes its missing plenty of buttons (most of the them on the UFC), and pages have more dead ends than their bug threads. A few clangers like bombing modes, and of course entire systems like hotspot detector, which i can forgive, as its rubbbish, and DCS doesnt support it, and TAMMAC, which is good and they should have, because the A-10 had SADL implemented... but overall, its not like you cannot have fun in it. But that's irrelevant. It's shallow. I mean really shallow. I dont think there is an SME touching it. "TOP SECRET" cannot say. Art work was great, FM was ... OK, although too easy, but systems and avioncs, rushed, and shallow. Two dead buttons isntead of IFF controls. That HUD overlay on the MFCD, who were they trying to fool? Looked horrid. Can't even tell you what version it is. It's hybrid of course, like their Mirage 2000C.... cough -5 mixups. They dont want to say, dont want to own up, not courageous enough to announce they arent attempting any of the missing features. Stealth EA pull, just their sneaky style. Can't tell you, it's secret.

 

You can't get a refund, you can try, its a fineprint thing. Act with your wallets, the damage is done long ago, this is not news.

F-15E? You have got to be joking.

 

Also, the way people acted here was too far and this was semi provoked. Sure, they should have a backbone and deal with it, but its too late now. The bug reports were terribly low quality. I read the community bug tracker. I stopped when I read a triplicate - but I dont want to insult someone that tried to handle it the best way they knew how. Still, gathering posts wasnt a great, some of those very out of date.

 

The entire affair is sad because the potential was all there, but they started with too complex. I feel sorry for the people like Tim who did such a great job.

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@nineline

 

So maybe you can also get some clarification for us what "year" the raz harrier is supposed to be. I mean seriously its "sekrit"?

 

Not totally sure I understand the reasoning here either, I can ask. I mean we have a rough idea what we shoot for with ED stuff, even if we have to add and subtract here and there based on info.

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I read the community bug tracker. I stopped when I read a triplicate - but I dont want to insult someone that tried to handle it the best way they knew how. Still, gathering posts wasnt a great, some of those very out of date.

 

No disrespect meant, but you should also have read the "read me" or the forum post where I clearly lay out the principles of the bug tracker.

 

In particular

 

This bug tracker doesn't substitute the forum reports, in fact you have to paste the link to the report. So the idea is, we list in the tracker all the reports, while the discussion, track submission etc. still happen on the official forum channel.

Note: the file is based ONLY on the forum posts (i.e. the official communication channel). If a forum bug report is not acknowledged, not tagged as [REPORTED], not tagged as [FIXED] or else there is no post from the devs inside the thread that says it is, it will appear as an open bug in the bug tracker.

 

I cannot possibly go and test each week, each and everyone of those reports and change the status myself, can I?

I believe I have dedicated, sorry, wasted enough time reporting bugs that went unanswered for years, and then making the community tracker (and updating it as much as possible).

 

@Nineline, my complaints and missing features are in the bug tracker. You can filter for "bkthunder" and see what I have reported and is still open.

I frankly have very little time to AGAIN make another list, maybe I will but it's difficult.

 

The main point you should take away is this product is not a highly accurate/realistic simulation of the Harrier. It's not accurate, the FM is missing key VTOL dynamics, the systems are half baked, weapons are missing.

What makes it useless for me? Simple. I bought this:

 

The subject of this study level simulation is the AV-8B N/A Bu No's 163853 and up which are the latest variant of this very capable AV-8B version.

 

Key Features of DCS: AV-8B N/A VTOL by RAZBAM include:

 

Advanced Flight Model that provides realistic performance and flight characteristics of a Vertical Takeoff and Landing (VTOL) aircraft

Highly detailed external 3D model and textures with animations

Highly detailed and accurate 6 DOF cockpit with high resolution textures, specular and bump mapping, and mouse-interactive controls

Highly realistic modelling of the aircraft systems including electrical, fuel, hydraulics, lighting, engine and navigation that includes:

Digital Engine Control System (DECS)

Automatic Fuel System

Air Refueling System

Electrical Power System

External Lighting

Internal Lighting

Hydraulic Power Supply System

Flight Control System (FCS)

Head-Up Display (HUD)

Up-front Control (UFC)

Option Display Unit (ODU)

Multipurpose Color Displays (MPCD)

VREST Computer (for jet-borne flight)

Air Data Computer (ADC)

Environmental Control System (ECS)

On-Board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS)

Realistic weapons, sensor, and defensive systems include:

Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground GAU-12 Equalizer 25 mm (0.984 in) 5-barreled Rotary cannon pod

6 under-wing pylon stations holding up to 9,200 lb (4,200 kg) of payload which include:

AIM-9 Sidewinder or similar-sized infrared-guided missiles

AGM-65 Maverick Air-to-Surface missiles

Mark 80 series of unguided bombs (including 3 kg [6.6 lb] and 14 kg [31 lb] practice bombs)

Paveway series of Laser-Guided Bombs (LGBs)

Joint Direct Attack Munitions (GBU-38, GBU-32, and GBU-54)

Mark 20 Cluster Bomb Units (CBUs)

AN/AAQ-28V LITENING targeting pod

ALQ-164 ECM Pod

Several skins

Detailed Operational Manual and Pocket guide

Instant Action, Single, and Training Missions

Detailed representation of the USS Tarawa (LHA-1), lead ship of her class.

For more information and support, please visit: RAZBAM

 

 

I did not get what is in there.

It is not a study level simulation. I am using DCS because it is.

 

If I buy a knife and you give me scissors, the scissors for me are uselss because I needed a knife. Get it?

 

Edit: here’s a fitting analogy to sum up.

I bought the tickets to see Top Gun, but I was given hot shots with Charlie sheen. Lol.


Edited by bkthunder

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I am glad that ED is now taking care of it. At least it gives some hope for the Harrier.

Thanks to NineLine and Bignewy for the mediation and support for us.

 

I have written off Razbam for me. Under the circumstances I won't buy anything more, even if it might get better in the future.

 

What I would be interested in is the future maintenance of the Harrier or the M2k.

If the Harrier is completed now and everything is as we imagine it to be, we can hope that if in the future there is something wrong with the Harrier, it will be fixed in a reasonable time or what I fear nothing will be done.

 

Because this way I will not want to deal with the Harrier anymore.

 

Maybe it would be good if the newsletter on Friday would inform us all about what is going on here at the moment. So that the state of affairs is clarified in short form.

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Yes, these are 2 really important questions. Because nothing real has happened yet.

Only: "Stay tuned, we are working on it" and the community bug tracker thread closed.

 

And while their primary texture artist says: "Nonsense! ONLY ED can take the Harrier out of the ea, the one who says that is just a community manager and has no idea!", says the community manager:" Nonsense! Only Razbam can take the module out of ea, the one who says that is just a texture artist and has no idea!". :punch:

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I have seen 2 things from the store text missing, one is waiting on us,

That is nothing more then a cheap excuse.

Was HB waiting with the AIM-54 on you?

Was Deka waiting with all their weapons on you?

Deka has terminal guidance in the Jeff, why is it missing in the Harrier? Oh, yes, once again, its ED's fault...

Everything that is missing or wrong in the Harrier is either ED's fault, someone else's fault or "top secret".

Thats ridiculous.

 

one has been explained (the manual).

We talked to them, and apparently there was a miss-communication, that the manual was supposed to be done, but was held up by COVID (this is based on feedback from Baltic Dragon). They are going to get that addressed as soon as they can.

 

Baltic Dragon is more then an integer person and is always delivering absolute great content and open to any kind of critic.

Its bottom drawer to pull now him also into this farce. (From RB, not from you)

 

And under the line, it is so simple:

If the product does not match the shop description (and yes, also a system that is only implemented with ~20% functionality should be considered as missing) it should not be allowed to leave EA.

BigNewy, you always say "EA isn't for everyone". Now it seems that also "finished" products aren't for anyone.

 

 

Honestly I don't think this is important.

 

The store page lists it as "BUNO 163853 and up" but the DCS Harrier is and has always been a "Frankenharrier" due to the wide disparities in age of the source documents they're using, and the realistic need for them to make concessions and compromises to realism in the service of authenticity and gameplay.

 

The statement from Razbam that it is secret is nothing more then a bad joke, you know what they wanna hide with it.

 

For me, its quite ok that the Harrier is a Frankenharrier and the exact BuNo is not stated.

But it becomes a problem when talking about systems. For example, take my report about the light switch:

Ext. lights - wrong functions (should be correct for a night attack aircraft!)

There it should be clarified according to which BuNo it should be working.

 

But tell me personally why the Harrier is useless to you, what makes it unplayable. I am not being a smart ass, or joking, I am totally serious.

 

Please, climb in, fly 20+h with it and try to use all weapons and functions at least once.

You will recognize that there is not "one thing" that is bugged at the moment, like we are used to it from the F-18 or F-14 etc., there are multiple things bugged in anything you do.

 

I'm also not being a smart ass or joking, I am totally serious. Take a seat and fly and use it for some time.

 

Its the sum of hundred small things that makes it useless, because there is only frustration when useing it.

 

here’s a fitting analogy to sum up.

I bought the tickets to see Top Gun, but I was given hot shots with Charlie sheen. Lol.

 

:thumbup::lol:

Awesome, so perfect :lol:


Edited by viper2097

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I am for quality over quantity in DCS modules

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Just to add.

Whilst I appreciate that the Harrier still has some bugs, that I still love flying mine.

Bought it day 1, and have since bought the F18, F16, F14 etc. I still get a kick out of flying the harrier and was out in it last night doing some SEAD over Syria.

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I wonder, why ED don't put the Early Access label back on the Harrier until the missing items are delivered or implemented? Is there no QA for 3rd party modules?

 

Because ED doesn't make the decision when the module leaves EA, how they can make decision when it doesn't leave?

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Because ED doesn't make the decision when the module leaves EA, how they can make decision when it doesn't leave?

 

According to Razbam_Hank, it is only ED can take a module out of EA, apparently razbam don't make those decisions.

 

Edit, I was mistaken, BN addresses the error on the next page


Edited by Swiftwin9s
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According to Razbam_Hank, it is only ED can take a module out of EA, apparently razbam don't make those decisions.

 

From Nineline

 

That person spoke out of line, and is wrong. I already addressed this with Ron. Thanks. The most we control is removing the EA text from our website, but that is done with RAZBAMs request.

Edited by BIGNEWY

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BigNewy, you always say "EA isn't for everyone". Now it seems that also "finished" products aren't for anyone.

 

 

That is the core of a problem here.

An uncompleted product is being pushed from development to a stable market.

 

All features that are listed doesn't work or exist. So it shouldn't be allowed to go anywhere than rapid development phase.

 

This is not fans of Harrier screaming "where are my features" as much as it is "Hey ED, the Razbam is trying to slip uncompleted product that they have not fixed for years, to your customers that has been waiting a feature complete product...."

 

After early access I can understand bugs like "The flood light knob rotates at wrong direction". But not at all "You can not bomb a target because your targeting system thinks it takes over 500 seconds to fly to target at 2 nmi and over it!".

 

This is not anymore so much about Razbam trying to produce Harrier, but how well is the Early Access philosophy enforced, that feature completed product is the purpose for a release.

As how I see it, I waited Razbam release bunch of large updates this year to fix major flaws, add missing features and polish it.

But instead Razbam could very well have pushed Harrier out of Early Access already over a year ago....

 

Now my hopes from seeing Harrier completed is shifted from Razbam to ED.... That they get Razbam to place Harrier back to Early Access, focus it flaws to be fixed with help from ED and complete it, then try again with release. But I start already seeing the possibilities ED taking the control of the Harrier, and likely as well from MiG-23MLA and F-15E.

No wonder that Razbam Community Manager left that position few weeks ago, as he likely knew what is to come and didn't want to be in this storm, trying to explain things.


Edited by Fri13

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Indeed Fri,

 

Normally you are told to excuse rough edges and patchy spots because 'It's EA' and you start to learn that EA means unfinished and out of EA will consequently mean finished.

 

Now I can see there being two definitions of finished:

1) It has quite literally everything in the product page (I know, it doesn't but that seems to be the spirit of the argument), regardless of how polished it feels

2) It is an accurate representation of the most realistic version of this aircraft that can be realised in DCS. All effort has been applied to removing bugs that do not represent the real product and a user will be able to use the product without feeling like it is a development build.

 

It seems to me that most people expect 2, and I believe that 2 is what ED strive towards. However I get the feeling that Harrier has been 'finished' under the idea of 1.

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Originally Posted by NineLine viewpost.gif

That person spoke out of line, and is wrong. I already addressed this with Ron. Thanks. The most we control is removing the EA text from our website, but that is done with RAZBAMs request.

 

 

Does this mean, if a 3rd party developer request to change the status from EA to "finished product" then ED just do it without any QA checks?

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Now my hopes from seeing Harrier completed is shifted from Razbam to ED.... That they get Razbam to place Harrier back to Early Access, focus it flaws to be fixed with help from ED and complete it, then try again with release. But I start already seeing the possibilities ED taking the control of the Harrier, and likely as well from MiG-23MLA and F-15E.

 

 

I buried my hope right away, because to talk to Razbam and " assist them with bugs " is now the consequence of everything. The time to talk to Razbam is long over and they have shown more than once that they are not willing and ED has already slept all this in the past or was also not willing. Because actually, they really should have done something substantial now, like bring it back to EA, etc. I don't know either what to be patient for. A big surprise? the weekend? Things calming down?

 

Every module that is to leave EA should be subject to a quality check by ED before. I've really a hard time believing that this is not already the case. After all, there is a (?quality-) check when a module enters it and that this RazbamGuy insists that it is not in their hands does not make it more convincing.

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Razbam's unprofessionalism and serious lack of communication in this matter and all other matters for literally years has lost them my future business. I have hope the Harrier will get to a good state, with ED's help. I don't think I regret my purchase of it at this point. I have gotten a lot of enjoyment out of it over the years, more than worth the money I spent. But I do not trust this team anymore to deliver on their promises. I've given them second and third chances but they don't deserve any more.

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I haven't checked in a while since it seemed to be one of those forever-issues, but is the Harrier fully carrier-compatible yet or does it still get stuck in “flight has been delayed” if it's assigned to anything other than a runway start or is the only plane on the entire server? Because it would be nice if this carrier aircraft could use carriers before it came out of EA…

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I haven't bought Razbam products in a while. The last product I bought was Harrier. After that I didn't buy anything else. The problem with Razbam is that they want to launch the world without finishing existing projects.

I currently have only Harrier and Mirage. Future Razbam products are banned from my shopping cart. I hope they finish the existing modules. So that I can support you in the future.

 

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I just want to notice that what is happening here is more or less the same that happened with polychop and the Gazelle. Did polychop bring the Gazelle back to early access? Did polychop quickly address all the bugs, alone or with ED's help? None of this. They just said they have to work on the Kiowa now, It will be a better module and they will address the Gazelle after the Kiowa, since development of the latter may help them to improve the first. Just promises. Get ready for another show when the Kiowa will be out. I'm sorry but I fear the same will happen here. There's only one thing true: ED needs more quality check on 3rd party modules.

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