Razbam/ED please clarify - Is the Harrier out of EA and consequently complete?

[Gladius]

I am glad that ED is now taking care of it. At least it gives some hope for the Harrier.

Thanks to NineLine and Bignewy for the mediation and support for us.

 

I have written off Razbam for me. Under the circumstances I won't buy anything more, even if it might get better in the future.

 

What I would be interested in is the future maintenance of the Harrier or the M2k.

If the Harrier is completed now and everything is as we imagine it to be, we can hope that if in the future there is something wrong with the Harrier, it will be fixed in a reasonable time or what I fear nothing will be done.

 

Because this way I will not want to deal with the Harrier anymore.

 

Maybe it would be good if the newsletter on Friday would inform us all about what is going on here at the moment. So that the state of affairs is clarified in short form.

[mue]

I wonder, why ED don't put the Early Access label back on the Harrier until the missing items are delivered or implemented? Is there no QA for 3rd party modules?

[Cornelius]

Yes, these are 2 really important questions. Because nothing real has happened yet.

Only: "Stay tuned, we are working on it" and the community bug tracker thread closed.

 

And while their primary texture artist says: "Nonsense! ONLY ED can take the Harrier out of the ea, the one who says that is just a community manager and has no idea!", says the community manager:" Nonsense! Only Razbam can take the module out of ea, the one who says that is just a texture artist and has no idea!". :punch:

[viper2097]

I have seen 2 things from the store text missing, one is waiting on us,

That is nothing more then a cheap excuse.

Was HB waiting with the AIM-54 on you?

Was Deka waiting with all their weapons on you?

Deka has terminal guidance in the Jeff, why is it missing in the Harrier? Oh, yes, once again, its ED's fault...

Everything that is missing or wrong in the Harrier is either ED's fault, someone else's fault or "top secret".

Thats ridiculous.

 

one has been explained (the manual).

We talked to them, and apparently there was a miss-communication, that the manual was supposed to be done, but was held up by COVID (this is based on feedback from Baltic Dragon). They are going to get that addressed as soon as they can.

 

Baltic Dragon is more then an integer person and is always delivering absolute great content and open to any kind of critic.

Its bottom drawer to pull now him also into this farce. (From RB, not from you)

 

And under the line, it is so simple:

If the product does not match the shop description (and yes, also a system that is only implemented with ~20% functionality should be considered as missing) it should not be allowed to leave EA.

BigNewy, you always say "EA isn't for everyone". Now it seems that also "finished" products aren't for anyone.

 

 

Honestly I don't think this is important.

 

The store page lists it as "BUNO 163853 and up" but the DCS Harrier is and has always been a "Frankenharrier" due to the wide disparities in age of the source documents they're using, and the realistic need for them to make concessions and compromises to realism in the service of authenticity and gameplay.

 

The statement from Razbam that it is secret is nothing more then a bad joke, you know what they wanna hide with it.

 

For me, its quite ok that the Harrier is a Frankenharrier and the exact BuNo is not stated.

But it becomes a problem when talking about systems. For example, take my report about the light switch:

Ext. lights - wrong functions (should be correct for a night attack aircraft!)

There it should be clarified according to which BuNo it should be working.

 

But tell me personally why the Harrier is useless to you, what makes it unplayable. I am not being a smart ass, or joking, I am totally serious.

 

Please, climb in, fly 20+h with it and try to use all weapons and functions at least once.

You will recognize that there is not "one thing" that is bugged at the moment, like we are used to it from the F-18 or F-14 etc., there are multiple things bugged in anything you do.

 

I'm also not being a smart ass or joking, I am totally serious. Take a seat and fly and use it for some time.

 

Its the sum of hundred small things that makes it useless, because there is only frustration when useing it.

 

here’s a fitting analogy to sum up.

I bought the tickets to see Top Gun, but I was given hot shots with Charlie sheen. Lol.

 

:thumbup::lol:

Awesome, so perfect :lol:

Edited September 10, 2020 by viper2097

[veenee]

It would be fair now for ED & RAZBAM to offer refunds for any Harrier owners, unless EA label is put back on it.

 

But it's not going to happen, is it? ;-)

Edited September 10, 2020 by veenee

[Mr_sukebe]

Just to add.

Whilst I appreciate that the Harrier still has some bugs, that I still love flying mine.

Bought it day 1, and have since bought the F18, F16, F14 etc. I still get a kick out of flying the harrier and was out in it last night doing some SEAD over Syria.

[veenee]

It is fun to fly no doubt.

But if it's now magically out of EA, I'd rather get my money back, see how the 'product sustainment' continues, and perhaps buy it again in the future.

Edited September 10, 2020 by veenee

[Fri13]

I wonder, why ED don't put the Early Access label back on the Harrier until the missing items are delivered or implemented? Is there no QA for 3rd party modules?

 

Because ED doesn't make the decision when the module leaves EA, how they can make decision when it doesn't leave?

[Swift.]

Because ED doesn't make the decision when the module leaves EA, how they can make decision when it doesn't leave?

 

According to Razbam_Hank, it is only ED can take a module out of EA, apparently razbam don't make those decisions.

 

Edit, I was mistaken, BN addresses the error on the next page

Edited September 10, 2020 by Swiftwin9s

[BIGNEWY]

According to Razbam_Hank, it is only ED can take a module out of EA, apparently razbam don't make those decisions.

 

From Nineline

 

That person spoke out of line, and is wrong. I already addressed this with Ron. Thanks. The most we control is removing the EA text from our website, but that is done with RAZBAMs request.

Edited September 10, 2020 by BIGNEWY

[Fri13]

BigNewy, you always say "EA isn't for everyone". Now it seems that also "finished" products aren't for anyone.

 

 

That is the core of a problem here.

An uncompleted product is being pushed from development to a stable market.

 

All features that are listed doesn't work or exist. So it shouldn't be allowed to go anywhere than rapid development phase.

 

This is not fans of Harrier screaming "where are my features" as much as it is "Hey ED, the Razbam is trying to slip uncompleted product that they have not fixed for years, to your customers that has been waiting a feature complete product...."

 

After early access I can understand bugs like "The flood light knob rotates at wrong direction". But not at all "You can not bomb a target because your targeting system thinks it takes over 500 seconds to fly to target at 2 nmi and over it!".

 

This is not anymore so much about Razbam trying to produce Harrier, but how well is the Early Access philosophy enforced, that feature completed product is the purpose for a release.

As how I see it, I waited Razbam release bunch of large updates this year to fix major flaws, add missing features and polish it.

But instead Razbam could very well have pushed Harrier out of Early Access already over a year ago....

 

Now my hopes from seeing Harrier completed is shifted from Razbam to ED.... That they get Razbam to place Harrier back to Early Access, focus it flaws to be fixed with help from ED and complete it, then try again with release. But I start already seeing the possibilities ED taking the control of the Harrier, and likely as well from MiG-23MLA and F-15E.

No wonder that Razbam Community Manager left that position few weeks ago, as he likely knew what is to come and didn't want to be in this storm, trying to explain things.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Fri13

[Swift.]

Indeed Fri,

 

Normally you are told to excuse rough edges and patchy spots because 'It's EA' and you start to learn that EA means unfinished and out of EA will consequently mean finished.

 

Now I can see there being two definitions of finished:

1) It has quite literally everything in the product page (I know, it doesn't but that seems to be the spirit of the argument), regardless of how polished it feels

2) It is an accurate representation of the most realistic version of this aircraft that can be realised in DCS. All effort has been applied to removing bugs that do not represent the real product and a user will be able to use the product without feeling like it is a development build.

 

It seems to me that most people expect 2, and I believe that 2 is what ED strive towards. However I get the feeling that Harrier has been 'finished' under the idea of 1.

[mue]

Originally Posted by NineLine

That person spoke out of line, and is wrong. I already addressed this with Ron. Thanks. The most we control is removing the EA text from our website, but that is done with RAZBAMs request.

 

 

Does this mean, if a 3rd party developer request to change the status from EA to "finished product" then ED just do it without any QA checks?

[Cornelius]

Now my hopes from seeing Harrier completed is shifted from Razbam to ED.... That they get Razbam to place Harrier back to Early Access, focus it flaws to be fixed with help from ED and complete it, then try again with release. But I start already seeing the possibilities ED taking the control of the Harrier, and likely as well from MiG-23MLA and F-15E.

 

 

I buried my hope right away, because to talk to Razbam and " assist them with bugs " is now the consequence of everything. The time to talk to Razbam is long over and they have shown more than once that they are not willing and ED has already slept all this in the past or was also not willing. Because actually, they really should have done something substantial now, like bring it back to EA, etc. I don't know either what to be patient for. A big surprise? the weekend? Things calming down?

 

Every module that is to leave EA should be subject to a quality check by ED before. I've really a hard time believing that this is not already the case. After all, there is a (?quality-) check when a module enters it and that this RazbamGuy insists that it is not in their hands does not make it more convincing.

[ghost84]

Day 4, and still no official statement from Razbam. Unbelievable.

[kengou]

Razbam's unprofessionalism and serious lack of communication in this matter and all other matters for literally years has lost them my future business. I have hope the Harrier will get to a good state, with ED's help. I don't think I regret my purchase of it at this point. I have gotten a lot of enjoyment out of it over the years, more than worth the money I spent. But I do not trust this team anymore to deliver on their promises. I've given them second and third chances but they don't deserve any more.

[peeter]

Well Nineline, How the EA thing is working ?

 

And what makes ED move an aircraft out of EA ?

 

Is this just the 3rd party dev asking or is there an "investigation" on what feature is missing on the store description ?

[Tippis]

I haven't checked in a while since it seemed to be one of those forever-issues, but is the Harrier fully carrier-compatible yet or does it still get stuck in “flight has been delayed” if it's assigned to anything other than a runway start or is the only plane on the entire server? Because it would be nice if this carrier aircraft could use carriers before it came out of EA…

[ThorBrasil]

I haven't bought Razbam products in a while. The last product I bought was Harrier. After that I didn't buy anything else. The problem with Razbam is that they want to launch the world without finishing existing projects.

I currently have only Harrier and Mirage. Future Razbam products are banned from my shopping cart. I hope they finish the existing modules. So that I can support you in the future.

[nessuno0505]

I just want to notice that what is happening here is more or less the same that happened with polychop and the Gazelle. Did polychop bring the Gazelle back to early access? Did polychop quickly address all the bugs, alone or with ED's help? None of this. They just said they have to work on the Kiowa now, It will be a better module and they will address the Gazelle after the Kiowa, since development of the latter may help them to improve the first. Just promises. Get ready for another show when the Kiowa will be out. I'm sorry but I fear the same will happen here. There's only one thing true: ED needs more quality check on 3rd party modules.

[baltic_dragon]

We talked to them, and apparently there was a miss-communication, that the manual was supposed to be done, but was held up by COVID (this is based on feedback from Baltic Dragon). They are going to get that addressed as soon as they can.

 

Hey guys, I took the time to read the whole thread. Wow.

 

As the manual and my (nick)name has been mentioned several times, please let me comment on that. The lack of full manual to date is on me: I agreed to write one and am doing so. However, when covid struck and I was stuck at home for several months, I was simply unable to work on it with three small kids, normal daily job and other DCS commitments. Nevertheless, if anyone is to be blamed for lack of full manual, it is me.

 

Having said that, I am working on it, going step by step and I assure you that I will report all the issues I may find along the way to RAZBAM (both missing features and things that don’t work as they should). I was promised these all will be looked at and taken care of.

 

To my mind the training missions may be treated as temporary substitute to the manual (especially it you look at the documentation provided there) - at least until I finish writing it. Mind you, Harrier is a very complex aircraft (much more than, say, M-2K) and requires a lot more attention when preparing the text.

 

Oh, and someone mentioned the campaign. I am finishing the free, 5 mission one as we speak. Couldn’t have done it before due to some bugs with the AI behaviour on Tarawa, which has recently been fixed by ED. So we’re back on track there too :)

[BIGNEWY]

Hey guys, I took the time to read the whole thread. Wow.

 

As the manual and my (nick)name has been mentioned several times, please let me comment on that. The lack of full manual to date is on me: I agreed to write one and am doing so. However, when covid struck and I was stuck at home for several months, I was simply unable to work on it with three small kids, normal daily job and other DCS commitments. Nevertheless, if anyone is to be blamed for lack of full manual, it is me.

 

Having said that, I am working on it, going step by step and I assure you that I will report all the issues I may find along the way to RAZBAM (both missing features and things that don’t work as they should). I was promised these all will be looked at and taken care of.

 

To my mind the training missions may be treated as temporary substitute to the manual (especially it you look at the documentation provided there) - at least until I finish writing it. Mind you, Harrier is a very complex aircraft (much more than, say, M-2K) and requires a lot more attention when preparing the text.

 

Oh, and someone mentioned the campaign. I am finishing the free, 5 mission one as we speak. Couldn’t have done it before due to some bugs with the AI behaviour on Tarawa, which has recently been fixed by ED. So we’re back on track there too :)

 

Thank you for taking the time to post Baltic Dragon, appreciate it.

[Mr.Scar]

Hey guys, I took the time to read the whole thread. Wow.

 

As the manual and my (nick)name has been mentioned several times, please let me comment on that. The lack of full manual to date is on me: I agreed to write one and am doing so. However, when covid struck and I was stuck at home for several months, I was simply unable to work on it with three small kids, normal daily job and other DCS commitments. Nevertheless, if anyone is to be blamed for lack of full manual, it is me.

 

Having said that, I am working on it, going step by step and I assure you that I will report all the issues I may find along the way to RAZBAM (both missing features and things that don’t work as they should). I was promised these all will be looked at and taken care of.

 

To my mind the training missions may be treated as temporary substitute to the manual (especially it you look at the documentation provided there) - at least until I finish writing it. Mind you, Harrier is a very complex aircraft (much more than, say, M-2K) and requires a lot more attention when preparing the text.

 

Oh, and someone mentioned the campaign. I am finishing the free, 5 mission one as we speak. Couldn’t have done it before due to some bugs with the AI behaviour on Tarawa, which has recently been fixed by ED. So we’re back on track there too :)

 

Many Thanks Baltic, much appreciated :)

[Snoopy]

Hey guys, I took the time to read the whole thread. Wow.

 

As the manual and my (nick)name has been mentioned several times, please let me comment on that. The lack of full manual to date is on me: I agreed to write one and am doing so. However, when covid struck and I was stuck at home for several months, I was simply unable to work on it with three small kids, normal daily job and other DCS commitments. Nevertheless, if anyone is to be blamed for lack of full manual, it is me.

 

Having said that, I am working on it, going step by step and I assure you that I will report all the issues I may find along the way to RAZBAM (both missing features and things that don’t work as they should). I was promised these all will be looked at and taken care of.

 

To my mind the training missions may be treated as temporary substitute to the manual (especially it you look at the documentation provided there) - at least until I finish writing it. Mind you, Harrier is a very complex aircraft (much more than, say, M-2K) and requires a lot more attention when preparing the text.

 

Oh, and someone mentioned the campaign. I am finishing the free, 5 mission one as we speak. Couldn’t have done it before due to some bugs with the AI behaviour on Tarawa, which has recently been fixed by ED. So we’re back on track there too :)

 

Professional and honest like always, thanks my friend!

[stormrider]

I haven't bought Razbam products in a while. The last product I bought was Harrier. After that I didn't buy anything else. The problem with Razbam is that they want to launch the world without finishing existing projects.

I currently have only Harrier and Mirage. Future Razbam products are banned from my shopping cart. I hope they finish the existing modules. So that I can support you in the future.

 

 

Is it only Razbam who does that?