RWR update

[jojo]

I did a small customisation. I uploaded to "user's files" and it's waiting for approval.

In the meantime you can get the zip file here:

http://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=456&t=209988

 

I included a kneeboard page.

So you can print or just display in the cockpit :smilewink:

[Tali]

I also dont understand why Kj-2000 share the same symbol with jf17, and the missing SA-2/3 also doesnt make sense.

But, I think.the size of symbol are real. Just like the real photo, they are really small.

[jojo]

I also dont understand why Kj-2000 share the same symbol with jf17, and the missing SA-2/3 also doesnt make sense.

But, I think.the size of symbol are real. Just like the real photo, they are really small.

 

Kj-2000 is very easy to change, or you can just install my mod :smilewink:

[jojo]

Here is my custom RWR library, link to ED users files:

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3312388/

[Tali]

Here is my custom RWR library, link to ED users files:

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3312388/

 

I saw that. Is that real world symbol or your custom adaptation? Like Su30 sharing the symbol with Su34, and Su17 24 using "X".:megalol:

[Tali]

By the way , why no SA2&3?

[jojo]

I saw that. Is that real world symbol or your custom adaptation? Like Su30 sharing the symbol with Su34, and Su17 24 using "X".:megalol:

 

From what is explained, AdA gave Razbam the symbols that the system can display.

 

I'm adding that from what I saw on other systems, but close to this one:

There is no such thing as one real life table.

AdA has a unit (called EPIGE) which is managing and programming threat library.

They would customize that library on each deployment.

So a same symbol can be used for different threats depending on the deployment.

 

I followed Razbam logic.

The higher threats are identified individually.

But since the number of symbols is limited, sometimes it's a type of threat rather than a specific individual identification.

I just added a little bit more discrimination.

I had to use what was left available in the alphabet.

 

But overall, anyone guess is as good as mine. :smilewink:

Edited October 10, 2020 by jojo

[jojo]

By the way , why no SA2&3?

 

I tried to dig to add these systems myself.

I failed, but these radars are not specified in the same files as all the rest.

These SAM are WIP and defined in specific files.

 

It must be possible, but I don't know how ?

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Alot of this has to deal with having no DTC capability with the current DCS engine but hopefully in the future we can get something like this to happen and allow for more internal customization via ME or Special Tabs to make features more personal to the pilot or mission specific.

[jojo]

Yes DTC would be great, but it wouldn't solve the missing SA-2 and SA-3.

And being able to place a custom file in "saved games" would solve the problem of customization lost after update :smilewink:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=287891

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Why need to customize it if we've received and updated the RWR based on AdA and active SME input? If you want to modify things outside of the base offering thats fine but if weve got it to the point where it as as realistic as it can be why do we need to add things that were not suggested by our SMEs and the AdA in the first place?

 

Like i said above if and when A DTC becomes available to 3PDs then perhaps but were modelling a certain aircraft from a certain period of time with certain features on it.

Edited October 10, 2020 by RAZBAM_ELMO

[Steph21]

Why need to customize it if we've received and updated the RWR based on AdA and active SME input? If you want to modify things outside of the base offering thats fine but if weve got it to the point where it as as realistic as it can be why do we need to add things that were not suggested by our SMEs and the AdA in the first place?

 

Like i said above if and when A DTC becomes available to 3PDs then perhaps but were modelling a certain aircraft from a certain period of time with certain features on it.

 

Hi Elmo, you mean that based on AdA and SME feedback, the M2000C has no specific RWR symbology for SA-2 and SA-3 tracking radar?

 

In current default file, 2 is used for SA-12 wich is not available in DCS, and 3 is not used. I guess SA-2 and SA-3 are shown as U on RWR currently.

From what i understood from Zeus, he took the info provided by AdA and tweak the RWR symbol list to ajust it for assets modeled in DCS. I think that tweaking it a bit again and assign 2 to SA-2 and 3 to SA-3 would make sense, as currently 2 and 3 would never appear in DCS, whereas SA-2 and SA-3 are available as SAM assets.

 

Personnal customisation is another story.

[falcon_120]

In general RWR libraries is a tricky thing as in RL they are totally customizable to the appearance of new threats (or old ones) in a theater of operations based on elint input.

 

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[myHelljumper]

Hi Elmo, you mean that based on AdA and SME feedback, the M2000C has no specific RWR symbology for SA-2 and SA-3 tracking radar?

 

In current default file, 2 is used for SA-12 wich is not available in DCS, and 3 is not used. I guess SA-2 and SA-3 are shown as U on RWR currently.

From what i understood from Zeus, he took the info provided by AdA and tweak the RWR symbol list to ajust it for assets modeled in DCS. I think that tweaking it a bit again and assign 2 to SA-2 and 3 to SA-3 would make sense, as currently 2 and 3 would never appear in DCS, whereas SA-2 and SA-3 are available as SAM assets.

 

Personnal customisation is another story.

 

Yes, that's it.

[jojo]

Why need to customize it if we've received and updated the RWR based on AdA and active SME input? If you want to modify things outside of the base offering thats fine but if weve got it to the point where it as as realistic as it can be why do we need to add things that were not suggested by our SMEs and the AdA in the first place?

 

Like i said above if and when A DTC becomes available to 3PDs then perhaps but were modelling a certain aircraft from a certain period of time with certain features on it.

 

First, here is what is written on the PDF provided by Zeus on Page 1 onthis thread:

NOTES:

• Threat codes can be modified by editing the /Cockpit/Scripts/SERVAL.lua file.

 

Secondly, this is what I'm trying to explain: there is no definitive list of "this threat code" = "this specific threat" for Mirage 2000C.

The number of symbols it can display is limited, so it's customized depending on the threat encountered during the mission.

So it would make perfect sense to want to customize the threat library depending on the order of battle of a specific mission (or MP MP map for instance: Caucasus/ Persian Gulf/ Syria...).

 

Thirdly, the Mirage 2000C did participate to air cover for operations over Bosnia and Kosovo (Deny FLight, Deliberate FOrce...).

So had to deal with the Serbian Air Defense system, and they were using SA-2, SA-3 and SA-6.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-04.html

 

HQ-7 is a copy of Crotale SAM system. Crotale was exported to Irak, and Mirage 2000C did participate to CAP over Irak during Gulf War and After (Operation Daguet/ Desert Storm, Alysse/ Southern Watch).

 

These are threats Mirage 2000C had to deal with during its active service.

 

Razbam offered us the possibility to customize decoy program and now SERVAL threat library.

My request is just to put those files in a place where it won't be overwritten by each update, like we do for HOTAS profile for instance.

 

Last but not least: your SME are in active service. M-2000C is just one training tool amongst others.

They may not think of every aspect of the game, you have a much wider base of customers.

But if every time we request something, your answer is "get lost, our SME said so", this isn't very productive :(

 

But I suppose you are following that rule:

"The three most dangerous things in the world are a programmer with a soldering iron, a hardware type with a program patch and a user with an idea."

Edited October 11, 2020 by jojo

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

First, here is what is written on the PDF provided by Zeus on Page 1 onthis thread:

 

 

Secondly, this is what I'm trying to explain: there is no definitive list of "this threat code" = "this specific threat" for Mirage 2000C.

The number of symbols it can display is limited, so it's customized depending on the threat encountered during the mission.

So it would make perfect sense to want to customize the threat library depending on the order of battle of a specific mission (or MP MP map for instance: Caucasus/ Persian Gulf/ Syria...).

 

Thirdly, the Mirage 2000C did participate to air cover for operations over Bosnia and Kosovo (Deny FLight, Deliberate FOrce...).

So had to deal with the Serbian Air Defense system, and they were using SA-2, SA-3 and SA-6.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-04.html

 

HQ-7 is a copy of Crotale SAM system. Crotale was exported to Irak, and Mirage 2000C did participate to CAP over Irak during Gulf War and After (Operation Daguet/ Desert Storm, Alysse/ Southern Watch).

 

These are threats Mirage 2000C had to deal with during its active service.

 

Razbam offered us the possibility to customize decoy program and now SERVAL threat library.

My request is just to put those files in a place where it won't be overwritten by each update, like we do for HOTAS profile for instance.

 

Last but not least: your SME are in active service. M-2000C is just one training tool amongst others.

They may not think of every aspect of the game, you have a much wider base of customers.

But if every time we request something, your answer is "get lost, our SME said so", this isn't very productive :(

 

But I suppose you are following that rule:

"The three most dangerous things in the world are a programmer with a soldering iron, a hardware type with a program patch and a user with an idea."

 

Well firstly misquoting me as saying get lost our SME said so is wrong and incorrect so let's squash that bug off the bat.

 

Secondly if you don't want to hear what I'm passing along from the team and from actual people who fly these things nearly everyday thats fine. Ignore me but do not try to detract FACT from what YOU personally want out of the game. We do this not only for the consumer market but for ACTUAL MILITARY PILOTS doing ACTUAL MILITARY TRAINING. It goes hand in hand, so while I appreciate criticism and every bug reported, when the resulting resolution is questioned its kind of silly. We spent all that time working and correcting a fault which was made and then it turns out its right but people don't like it one way.

 

Now the idea of adding the threat codes in is a possibility and has been suggested, when and if it may appear depends on whats left to work on in the A/C and what else is on the plate.

 

What were really hoping for is ED to add DTC capabilities to all modules in the future to correct these.

 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[myHelljumper]

Now the idea of adding the threat codes in is a possibility and has been suggested, when and if it may appear depends on whats left to work on in the A/C and what else is on the plate.

 

I don't think we want more than that. IMO it's great to have the SME input on the RWR with the "real" threat codes but as DCS is a sandbox, it makes sense to have most of the threats identified by the RWR.

[jojo]

From day one I said the new RWR is great.

 

But:

1- it’s missing a few weapon systems in the library (and these are weapon systems encountered during the aircraft service time).

2- it’s advertised as customisable, but you denied the need because of the SME.

3- I was just suggesting a way to avoid loosing the custom file at each DCS World update.

[El Chapo]

Hint: compare SAM frequency band and SERVAL frequency band, and you'll understand why some systems might be "missing".

[jojo]

7 hours ago, Габихан said:

Hint: compare SAM frequency band and SERVAL frequency band, and you'll understand why some systems might be "missing".

 

I answered you on MP, but it can be interesting for others:
 

SA-2 FCR: Fan Song E/F or G (depending on variants)

SA-3 FCR: Low Blow I (missile remote control on band D).

 

SERVAL: E to J.

SABRE: H to J.

 

SERVAL should at least detect SA-2 and SA-3 tracking.

SABRE shouldn't be able to jam SA-2, but SA-3 yes.

 

But DCS isn't as detailed about electronic warfare.

 

Sources:
Flight Global – Electronic Warfare Directory - 1989
Jane’s radar and electronic warfare system
Forecast International

Edited December 2, 2020 by jojo

[El Chapo]

OK true for firing radars but false for EW and tracking radars. 

The philosophy of self-protection is "avoid getting shot" trough 3 stages:

1 - being unseen (by being too far or too low - > Intel and appropriate routing) 

2 - if seen, not being shot at (by staying out of missile range, or defeating tracking radar, eg: beam - > Intel and RWR) 

3 - if shot at, not being hit (by evading the firing radar or the missile itself - > manoeuvre and jamming and decoying) 

 

Reaching step 3 means that you are fighting for your survival. You jettisoned your bombs and tanks. Mission is a (at least partial) failure.

 

Therefore you should consider that you are not protected against old generation SAM systems that use EW and tracking radars that are out of RWR or jammer's band, since you might take a shot out of the blue and never be able to react against it.

For some systems, even firing radar is out of band. 

 

Anyways it doesn't answer the "why" of the technical difficulties regarding DCS and its coding possibilities, but it still gives you a good look at why it is quite in accordance with actual plane performances. 

[jojo]

It’s true, SERVAL wouldn’t spot Spoon Rest (A band, 275km range) or Flat Face (C band, 250km range) EW radar.

But these would overload the SERVAL display. And you know you have to be on the deck if you want to be unnoticed.

 

At least the system covers Fan Song and Low Blow which are the engagement radars. These are the main threat radar.

So the pilot would know when he is targeted by these systems.

Most engagement radars would be E band and above.

 

[Kercheiz]

On 10/10/2020 at 11:48 PM, jojo said:

Yes DTC would be great, but it wouldn't solve the missing SA-2 and SA-3.

And being able to place a custom file in "saved games" would solve the problem of customization lost after update

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=287891

 

Same for any mod customization (such as new binds, etc...). Use OVGME to add/remove your customizations::

https://wiki.hoggitworld.com/view/OVGME

[al531246]

Big doubt on there being no difference in tone between tracking and guidance signals. That's been a fundamental feature of every RWR, the APR-25/27 was doing this back in 'Nam!

 

Also the Tornado IDS and GR4 use exactly the same radars. They actually have 2 radars; The Ground Mapping RADAR (ARI 23274) and the Terrain Following RADAR (ARI 23273). They both appear as a T on contemporary RWR displays. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by al531246

[TAW_Impalor]

Hi everyone! Chuck's guide, page 200 shows RWR symbols for M2000 as 'M2' and for Mig-29 as '29'. Are two-symbol codes allowed? Does anyone have a SERVAL.lua with such codes? They look the same as Hornet's, which would be awesome.

 

Also, any way to edit PANIC dispense, as it is not in SPIRALE.lua?

 

Thanks!!!

Edited March 4, 2021 by impalor