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What percentage of DCS Pilots can Reliably Air Refuel at least one Airframe?


CBenson89

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Not talking about the approach turbulence.

When you’re connected the turbulence is quite minimal.

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Im strictly singleplayer and I can refuel the Hornet without any major problems now, although I have not started training it in the Harrier, Viper and Tomcat it feels like I should be able to transfer it to them though. Two things I have noticed:

 

1. Its much easier since I switched to VR from Track IR.

 

2. Since Im only singleplayer I can set the tankers as I want. So I always set them to circular orbit. Because they behave in a very different way in circular orbit compared to race track, and as far as I know this is not described in the manual.

In race track the tanker flyes its race track regardless of what Im doing, so if I connect when its flying straight, Im doomed when it starts turning, I cant make that transition without going all over the place. In circular orbit it flyes a tight (perhaps unrealistic) circle but when you approach it from behind and get close it relaxes its turn to about a 15 degree bank turn with a much bigger radius and stays that way until Im done refuelling. Took some practice but once I got used to refuelling in the turn its no problems because I dont have to worry about the tanker changing its turn all of a sudden. Perhaps this is cheating a bit but Im ok with that in that case.

 

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I'm far more successful with a basket/drogue than I am the boom. But I think the boom operator in DCS is on the "special" side. From what I've seen on youtube, real life boom operators seem to move the boom where it needs to be in a more timely fashion.

 

I will say, it helps a lot when the tanker is moving at a speed well above stall speed. With jets, at or slightly above 300 knots IAS seems to offer more in the way of pitch stability than 225-250 knots IAS where the slightest adjustment in speed/thrust makes your nose point up or down.


Edited by Headwarp
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Never ever once, and not even close. The closest I have managed to get is to crash into the refueling tanker. :( Not much a brag there but it's still the "closest" I've been able to get. Can't get near the basket. And it's fratricide to cause an accident like that so it makes me feel like double-shit.

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I have to practice AAR a lot to remain reasonable at it and I'm certainly not proficient at it in all aircraft with the capability (A-10C and F/A-18 only really TBH).

 

The minute I stop practicing this my skill level drops off quickly.

 

I've always found this reasonably difficult over the years.

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Hornet I can do with my eyes closed.

Tomcat I can do but with 100% focus

Hog I could do last I checked a few months ago

Harrier I can do first time on a good day, but most often need a couple of stabs to get it in

Viper I struggle with, the deadzone always catches me out when trying to make small adjustments.

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Never ever once, and not even close. The closest I have managed to get is to crash into the refueling tanker. :( Not much a brag there but it's still the "closest" I've been able to get. Can't get near the basket. And it's fratricide to cause an accident like that so it makes me feel like double-shit.

 

Best advice is to stop worrying about the basket or boom and just fly formation on another aircraft for a while. Makes no real difference what other aircraft or in what formation but just get close and work on staying in a single relative position. Formation flying skill is the key to successful AAR. If you can't fly formation first, you will struggle to AAR, because in reality, that's all AAR is.

 

So a suggestion is to place an AI aircraft of the same type as you in front of you at 15,000 feet or so and about 300kts Indicated or around .75 mach. Have it fly in a straight line for about 200 miles. Or as far as you want. Set yourself to spawn just behind it at about 1/2 to 1nm on the same heading, alt and airspeed. Start the sim and then when ready slowly move forward to rejoin to one wing or the other. Left side is the standard but it doesn't matter. Work on controlling closure where you can judge distance and just inch forward a little at a time until you are very slightly low and just aft of his wing about in line with the rear horizontal stab. See attached pic for an example of the Hornet.

 

Start a bit wide and then work your way in until you can comfortably hold the position about 4-5 feet from the other aircraft wingtip. Work on forward and aft position and try to maintain the same relative position. If you get tired, slide out until you're not going to crash and relax a bit and then slide back in and try again. If you get good at this, then try some formation in a turn. The easiest way to do this is to spawn with an AI wingman and then once going, use the radio command "orbit here" or "maintain position" (I can't remember the exact command) and the wingman will fly a gentle 360 deg orbit. At that point you can rejoin on your wingman and work on the above but while in a turn.

 

Once you can do all that, then put a tanker out there and have it go in a long straight line for a while. Rejoin on the wing (again usually left) and get warmed us there and then slide down into the pre-contact position and just stay there for a few moments before trying to get into the contact position. Once you can hang in pre-contact for a couple of minutes, then inch slowly forward to get into the correct formation. I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH..... you are NOT flying formation with the basket or the boom. You're flying formation with the tanker. Don't even look at the basket or the boom other than to give it a glance to see how you're lined up. Quick glance and then your eyes should focus on the tanker itself. You should not be looking at your altitude or airspeed or anything other than the tanker and attaining and maintaining that formation position.

 

I harp on formation skill first for a reason. New pilots fly for a year or more learning and practicing basic formation flying before they are allowed anywhere near a tanker. AAR is hard. But it's impossible until you learn to fly formation first and it will just frustrate you in DCS if you don't learn the basics first. Start a little far away and gradually move in closer in those exercises above. Once you master both formation and AAR, you will have a very satisfied feeling of accomplishment. I've been doing it for real for 20 years and I find I still have to practice in DCS or I get very rusty.

 

Oh yeah, one last thing..... get VR if you don't already have it. Night and day difference in depth perception and natural feel for both form and AAR.

635568981_Hornetformation.png.5f269703c33347b6610919803a8616e9.png

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I put in many hours trying to AAR with a Saitek X52 Pro using TrackIR but couldn't successfully do it.

After getting a TM Warthog and VR I was successful on the 2nd attempt.

 

Naturally those many hours of practice on inferior hardware played a part but proper hardware had a much bigger impact for me.

 

 

Thanks for helping me know how to choose an upgrade in HOTAS.

 

I don't even bother anymore, attempting AAR, with my current setup. An Extreme 3D Pro stick with a T Flight X throttle. I've been researching a new HOTAS setup for months now.....and I'll probably wait to buy now, until the Corona-Hoax price gouging goes back down.

 

It's hard enough even to line up for a carrier landing. In fact, lately if I go to Multiplayer, I am finding myself choosing an F18 carrier slot and just circling the carrier for landing practice...lol!

 

So, I quit Multiplayer for the time being and have a created for myself a really nice supercarrier mission in Persia designed for landing practices ....and various weapon practice if I feel so inclined. ...Oh and it also has an option for AAR included in it.

 

So far after 100s of landings I have only made one landing that was not a "C" LSO.

 

So the answer to the OP is "No, I can not AAR" ...and attempting to, at this point, is even more time wasting as me trying to pass basic training on Arma 3.


Edited by Cpt Cuckoo

 

 

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I can refuel all of them, but some modules I don't fly as regularly and need a bit of Zen to get right within, say, 2 or 3 tries.

 

Hornet & Viper: super easy, I do it for relaxation

Tomcat: easy enough, but I don't fly it terribly often

A-10: view of the refueling lights a bit nasty, but given its docile nature - no issue

Harrier: my Nemesis, but after spending a week doing little else I can do it pretty comfortably now

M2k: about the same as Hornet, could probably do it sleeping

Jf17: surprisingly difficult due to pitch sensitivity. It could use the Viper's FLCS change when refueling

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Dunno about the general numbers, but I can tell you in which airframes I'm proficient with the AAR:

- F-18

- F-15

- F-16

- AV8B

- A10C

- M2000C

 

I managed to refuel a tomcat in the free weekend and man that was hard. I don't own it.

 

I play both singleplayer campaigns and multiplayer.

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I can barely refuel the Mirage during the day, and it's a struggle. Seeing how many comments mention that better equipment makes it easier is a relief because it honestly seems impossible to do it reliably with my old TWCS throttle and T16000 flight stick. I know upgrading my rudder pedals from crap thrustmaster budget stuff to the MFGs it was a HUGE different in yaw control in all of my modules.

 

So I'm a singleplayer guy and I've put hours and hours in the F-18 and the M-2000 trying to AAR and I've only topped off the F-18 once, and I can refuel the M-2000 but just barely, with several disconnects and reconnects, and only during the day.

 

Problem with Mirage in my view is the deadband that seems hardcoded in the model itself. Is this realistic? There's no way I can configure the controls to my likings and cannot make small adjustments.

Contrary, I have no problems with AAR in the Harrier.

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From these aircraft, I only have a hard time with the Tomcat:

 

A-10C

F-16C

F/A-18C

F-14B

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Air Refueling and Carrier landings are my favorites stuff in DCS, so i personnaly passed lots and lots of time refueling, each new modules i grab who can A/A, i try it. If the boom operator is not broken as it was a while ago (he wasn't moving, so you had to directly connect the boom in the aircraft refueling socket), it's not too bad, drogue basket is another thing, specialy now with turbulence but, fun, so far from the A-10c, F-15c, AV-8B, SU-33, F/A-18c, M-2000c and F-16, after a few tries it ain't that bad, only one i ever had issues with was the Harrier (i will always remember those first few tiems with the Harrier, i just my VR and learning to try the Harrier in VR and i almost shited my pants with the size of the tanker), but after you found yourself some visuals references, all gets pretty easy, though sometiems it takes more time to connect then others and i still got to try the Tomcat.


Edited by Doum76
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I finally tried AAR in VR. It took me a morning session and afternoon session to get to the point where I could top off an F-14 without any issues.

 

The F-16 is giving me a lot more problems. I can get connected fairly quickly. But I eventually suffer ever worse pilot induced oscillation in the vertical, which then starts affecting my speed until I lose all ability to hold formation. So far, the best I have managed is to load about 1,500 lbs before losing the connection.

 

Prior to VR, I had succeeded with the A-10 and AV-8. But online or offline, I never really use AAR. I simply don't do the kind of flying that requires that.


Edited by streakeagle

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Add me to the list of people who suck at A2A refuelling,

 

I switch between so many airframes its difficult to stay proficient in all.

 

that's my excuse and I am sticking to it :)

 

Could be mine as well, but yet...

 

Just keep in mind that without decent equipment it might be impossible to do AAR, so it's not necessarily about pilot skills.

 

Here lies the culprit. Even though it's impossible to see the tanker lights when doing the F-16 in the CV1, trying to AAR all the others is extremely hard with the lack of or heavily deteriorated peripheral vision, especially with the probe on the side. I can confirm this statement and throw in the fact that the eyes are the most vital hardware here. If yours suck, your AAR will suck equally well.

 

I disagree. With old non-defective joystick I was unable to aar after god know how many hours of practice. When I bought new joystick, I've got it in 5 minutes.

 

Simply, some mechanisms are incapable of producing fine and precise motion near center of joystick. Additionally, throttle range plays big role. Imagine doing F-16 aar with throttle slider that have 2cm of range. Impossible.

 

And as much as I love my good old FFB2, it would probably be easier with any other stick around today that has 16 times the resolution of mine. Even when just pinching the grip head with just two fingers and maybe even with a custom modded extension in there, 1024 positions just won't cut it when you can have 16384 with a stock TMWH or even a 50 bucks T16kM. But then again, their gimbals and springs suck and probably a WarBRD base or similar is the way to go, but that lacks FFB as well. Shame on Brunner for their price tag (which is well above my non-existent paycheck) and lack of DCS support.

 

And VR does make a whole lot of difference. Was literally unable to get more than 500lb in one piece without, but immediately could get 7klb without disco in the Hornet when I first tried it with the Rift. But I still totally suck when I try this with the Harrier or Tomcat...

 

All day. Every day. Twice on Sunday.

 

Hey, that's Celestia's instructions on how to eat cake princess_celestia.png

 

 

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The the largest factor keeping people away from avid MP participation is that it requires you to maintain two installs of the game.

 

Not really. It's rather that you'd need twice the hardware power to run half the fps though. So either you're running a 9900k and 2080ti anyway or end up flying at least completely without shadows...


Edited by Eldur

dcsdashie-hb-ed.jpg

 

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Not really. It's rather that you'd need twice the hardware power to run half the fps though. So either you're running a 9900k and 2080ti anyway or end up flying at least completely without shadows...

Maybe in VR but not with a monitor.

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Add me to the list of people who suck at A2A refuelling,

 

I switch between so many airframes its difficult to stay proficient in all.

 

that's my excuse and I am sticking to it :)

 

 

I've gotten the -18 connected a couple times, but it doesn't stay connected for more than a couple hundred pounds. I've narrowed this down to a pretty significant bug in the stick actuation code.

 

 

DCS should get right on that.

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