Landing with unused bombs

[Manhorne]

Something I have not seen mentioned or at least I could not find a mention of it. What is the actual procedure for a carrier landing with expended bombs. If you have a load on one wing heavier than the other do you jettison the bombs or try and compensate for it?

 

I am sure I have seen actual footage of Hornets returning to the carrier with bombs still on board but I have found it very difficult to land if one wing is weighed down with a load at landing speeds. the drag is very heavy as you would expect.

[donkeyrider]

Assuming that your weight is below the maximum, just trim it out and fly the AoA as you would normally.

[VGlusica]

There does exist an actual limit for a landing with asymmetric load. For carrier landing where gross weight is 33,000 lbs or less, asymmetric load cannot exceed 17,000 ft-lbs. If the gross weight is above 33,000 lbs than the maximum is 14,500 ft-lbs. As per NATOPS.

[Nealius]

The catch is that we have no way of measuring the foot-pounds of an asymmetric load in DCS.

[Manhorne]

Assuming that your weight is below the maximum, just trim it out and fly the AoA as you would normally.

 

 

I am going to do some landings and experiment to see. I might be over trimming . I was stable above 250 Knots but once I dropped the gear and got below 200 knots the aircraft became hard to control and keep steady. The drag effects were really heavy. Which I notice when ever you fire or drop any ordnance from the aircraft there are heavy drag effects but it is really bad at landing speeds.

[QuiGon]

I am going to do some landings and experiment to see. I might be over trimming . I was stable above 250 Knots but once I dropped the gear and got below 200 knots the aircraft became hard to control and keep steady.

Re-trim!

[Qiou87]

I am going to do some landings and experiment to see. I might be over trimming . I was stable above 250 Knots but once I dropped the gear and got below 200 knots the aircraft became hard to control and keep steady. The drag effects were really heavy. Which I notice when ever you fire or drop any ordnance from the aircraft there are heavy drag effects but it is really bad at landing speeds.

 

It depends how much assymetric load you have. I had a similar, albeit different, experience: right rudder and right aileron got destroyed by AAA. Aircraft was flying fine once trimmed until 250kts ; below that and it started to become seriously uncontrollable. Low speeds and high AoA can be tricky if you have a high assymetric load. In my case I had to land at 250kts, which is not really a possibility for you on the carrier because you'd never catch a wire.

 

Trim is dependent on airspeed and attitude (something you learn flying GA without FBW, you constantly have to adjust trim), so for sure trim for your landing speed. It might be a good idea to follow a long final instead of making a short case I approach in your case, at least once you get used to the plane's behavior, to be able to stabilize the plane with trim once in the correct configuration (on speed, flaps & gear down).

[CBStu]

I haven't tried an assymetric load but have landed on the heavy side. I fly SP mostly w/ the provided missions. I like to choose them looking for a nearby airfield so I can practice landing if I survive. I haven't done any serious experimentation but I do notice that when I am heavy the AOA w/ a <1000 ft/min descent rate has me up in the 145-150k vs more usual 135k airspeed.

[jmarso]

Trim requirements change with speed, due to the speed of air moving over the control surfaces, the exact same way that you need larger control inputs at lower speed and smaller inputs at higher speeds.

 

So if you are trimmed straight and level with an asymmetric load at 300 KIAS, when you get into the landing pattern you are going to need more aileron trim at those speeds. If the weight load is so asymmetric that you can't 'trim it out' using full aileron trim, then you are probably out of limits and need to jettison something.

 

As a player in a game, jettisoning stores doesn't cost you real money or ass-chewings. If you are an inexperienced pilot having control problems with asymmetric weight on the jet, go ahead and jettison as necessary to even it out. I promise, nobody cares! ;)

 

They'd probably kick me out of the air wing in real life if I NEVER came back with my drop tanks the way it seems to happen when playing DCS! ;)

Edited September 2, 2020 by jmarso

[VGlusica]

I dont have it handy right now, but I believe there is a chart that you can use to figure out which load would give you unacceptable asymmetric load. When I have a chance I will look it up and see if I can give you guys a basic idea without running afoul of any rules. One thing to keep in mind is that in a certain flight regime you might end up in a situation where your flight controls do not have enough authority to overcome the load asymmetry.

[Manhorne]

Trim requirements change with speed, due to the speed of air moving over the control surfaces, the exact same way that you need larger control inputs at lower speed and smaller inputs at higher speeds.

 

So if you are trimmed straight and level with an asymmetric load at 300 KIAS, when you get into the landing pattern you are going to need more aileron trim at those speeds. If the weight load is so asymmetric that you can't 'trim it out' using full aileron trim, then you are probably out of limits and need to jettison something.

 

As a player in a game, jettisoning stores doesn't cost you real money or ass-chewings. If you are an inexperienced pilot having control problems with asymmetric weight on the jet, go ahead and jettison as necessary to even it out. I promise, nobody cares! ;)

 

They'd probably kick me out of the air wing in real life if I NEVER came back with my drop tanks the way it seems to happen when playing DCS! ;)

Normally I would have expended any AG ordnance I have left just to make landing easier. I had just decided to try it to see how difficult it may be and it did not disappoint in that aspect. I was more curious about it since I have seen plenty of vids of Hornets landing back on carriers with not all their AG stores expended. I had not been able to find anything officially what the actual Navy has to say about it outside of the weight issues and limitations already talked about. I like trying new things and trying to figure it out and what the real world situations are and compare...Plus the discussions here are always enlightening....

[Bob_Bushman]

If push comes to shove,.

 

 

Its not like we have to pay for them

[CBStu]

This is interesting. I can certainly imagine many scenarios where a plane might return to the carrier w/ a bunch of unused ordnance. Is the weight limit an absolute or is there a fudge factor allowed?

[Swift.]

This is interesting. I can certainly imagine many scenarios where a plane might return to the carrier w/ a bunch of unused ordnance. Is the weight limit an absolute or is there a fudge factor allowed?

 

The fudge factor is that you can be below the weight limit

[CBStu]

The fudge factor is that you can be below the weight limit

Thanks. I didn't know the answer but that makes sense to me.

[JTAnimal]

I’m new to DCS so correct me if I’m wrong, there is a jettison button right above the brake, just select the station and push and the button. Bomb goes away. Right?

[Swift.]

I’m new to DCS so correct me if I’m wrong, there is a jettison button right above the brake, just select the station and push and the button. Bomb goes away. Right?

 

Yeah the red and grey thing above the parking brake. Select which station you want from the row of black pushtiles just to the right of that button, then spin the grey ring (around the red button) to the setting you need:

-R/L missiles = jettisons the cheek stations

-Rack Launcher = jettisons the racks aswell as the stores

-Stores = Jettisons the stores without the launcher

 

Then Arm the Master ARM and press the red button.

[...]

Would they drop $ 30,000 worth of bombs into the sea just to make a perfect landing?

 

 

EDIT: I have made the question wrong. I mean, I know there are standards to be followed for safety, but I can't believe it's unsafe to land with a bomb on a wing.

Edited September 6, 2020 by La Unión | Atazar

[speed-of-heat]

It’s not unsafe to land with a bomb on the wing under most circumstances...

[Swift.]

Would they drop $ 30,000 worth of bombs into the sea just to make a perfect landing?

 

 

EDIT: I have made the question wrong. I mean, I know there are standards to be followed for safety, but I can't believe it's unsafe to land with a bomb on a wing.

 

That's exactly why you plan the mission before you take off, and why you don't take off with too many bombs. Its why you wont see hornets flying CAS from the boat carrying thousands and thousands of pounds of ordnance.

 

And yes they will jettison them if they need to, because its better to drop $30,000 in the sea than lose tens of millions by having the jet exceed landing limits and snapping its hook or what not.

[mongo52]

Would they drop $ 30,000 worth of bombs into the sea just to make a perfect landing?

 

 

EDIT: I have made the question wrong. I mean, I know there are standards to be followed for safety, but I can't believe it's unsafe to land with a bomb on a wing.

Its not unsafe to land with ordance still on the jet. When they plan the mission they will try to limit the ordance so that they can dump enough fuel to get to max trap weight or less and still have enough fuel for a pass or 2 before having to plug the tanker.

Edited September 6, 2020 by mongo52
Spelling

[...]

That's exactly why you plan the mission before you take off, and why you don't take off with too many bombs. Its why you wont see hornets flying CAS from the boat carrying thousands and thousands of pounds of ordnance.

 

And yes they will jettison them if they need to, because its better to drop $30,000 in the sea than lose tens of millions by having the jet exceed landing limits and snapping its hook or what not.

 

 

Makes sense since I assume a landing gear break or platform collision would cost over $ 30,000 already, but as comment # 21 says, there is always the option to burn fuel I guess. It is my assumption, due to ignorance, because I am not a pilot and I do not know the procedures.

[Swift.]

Makes sense since I assume a landing gear break or platform collision would cost over $ 30,000 already, but as comment # 21 says, there is always the option to burn fuel I guess. It is my assumption, due to ignorance, because I am not a pilot and I do not know the procedures.

 

Yeah, you've got the idea. You have a maximum 'down-weight' and that can either be taken by fuel or bombs. Carrying more bombs home means you have less fuel, and eventually you reach the minimum safe fuel to land on (as dictated by the air wing doctrine). So you have to sacrifice some of those bombs so you don't exceed the maximum weight.

[Jenson]

On 9/3/2020 at 1:19 AM, VGlusica said:

I dont have it handy right now, but I believe there is a chart that you can use to figure out which load would give you unacceptable asymmetric load. When I have a chance I will look it up and see if I can give you guys a basic idea without running afoul of any rules. One thing to keep in mind is that in a certain flight regime you might end up in a situation where your flight controls do not have enough authority to overcome the load asymmetry.

Recently I'm trying to figure out the answers for this same question, just read in the ABCD manual that for carrier landing, max asymmetric load is 14500 ft-lbs for above 33,000 lbs and 17000 ft-lbs for less than 33,000 lbs, but is there a DDI page to show current playload asymmetric calculation or do i have to calculate myself? if I have to calculate, is it the distance from centerline to the pylon times the weapon weight? Thanks. 

[Temetre]

Am 6.9.2020 um 08:23 schrieb ...:

Would they drop $ 30,000 worth of bombs into the sea just to make a perfect landing?

 

 

EDIT: I have made the question wrong. I mean, I know there are standards to be followed for safety, but I can't believe it's unsafe to land with a bomb on a wing.

Always depends on the weight, its 33k top usually. In DCS, and probably in reality, you can land 37k or so too, but probably not done IRL because risk or airframe stress or so. Then again, if its a more even wartime scenario, ammo is short, then we'd actually see how far the US navy would be willing to go with landing restrictions. 

IIRC the old Harriers actually had to drop bombs almost every landing on a vertical landing, because the margins were so thin. Super Hornet and I think F-35 were specifically designed so they can at least bring some ordinance back to save money.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Temetre