Micro-stuttering / hitch & Frametime spikes issue

[Rachmaninoff]

Well, here I go...

 

My first intention was to post a thread in order to get some help and maybe solve the issue that had tormented me for so long. It is at this point, to be honest, I just feel the need to share it with you all as free counseling assistance.

 

I've been fighting against IT so long that I am not able to remember when it started. Does it come with 2.0? 2.5? I can't tell it.

 

The issue happens every 4 or 5 seconds, sometimes, less sometimes more, even sometimes it takes 20 seconds before appearing again. It's some kind of micro-stutter or hitch that freeze the image (not the sound as far as I've seen) just a fraction of second but enough to break one of the most valuable things in a sim (imho): immersion. I am not talking about a huge and complex MP mission but a single empty mission with just one plane.

 

My RIG specs are:

 

- Asus Rog Maximus X Apex

- i7 8700k (with or without OC, tested at almost every clock between 3,7 and 5.1)

- 32 GB G.Skill Trident Neo (b-die version) 3600mhz CL16 (test also with Corsair Dominator 4000mhz CL19)

- 2 x 1080ti (tested single, SLI, OC, non-OC...)

- Asus Rog PG348q 3440x1400 100hz (test at lower frequencies)

- Samsung NMve M.2 970 Pro 512GB (tested in 4 different SSD: samsung, kingston...)

 

- Windows 10 Pro (lastest updates installed)

 

Due to known Track-IR issues with other than 60hz refresh frequencies, I use Opentrack with an HTC Vive Tracker which delivers very high frequency (if anybody has the chance to test it, please do it, it has nothing to do with a regular headtracking and, if I'm not wrong, you can even use one just with the usb dongle, without helmet nor stations). It goes without saying that I've tested the issue with all this stuff unplugged.

 

Let list now the most relevant tests I've done:

- Several windows 10 clean installations with a full dedicated SSD for DCS (Release and OB)

- Running 1-plane simple missions in a dedicated DCS server just for my tests

- Disable/unplug any kind of headtracking

- Disable/unplug any peripherical leaving just one keyboard and mouse (wired or wireless)

- Several Nvidia driver versions

- All G-Sync / V-sync Nvidia / V-sync DCS / Fast sync / NV Inspector setting / full screen / window / borderless window ... combinations

- Several FPS limiters (RTSS, Nvidia, in-game) with several numbers (none, 100, 98, 97, 90, 60, 51, 50, 30 ...)

- Several measurements to rule out thermal throlling or similar situations (I hope I'm right with this)

- Page file: none, auto, 16 gb, 32 gb, 64 gb, same SSD, other SSD...

- Antivirus exclusion folders, disabled and even uninstall

- Delete fxo / metashaders2 (after 1000th time I made an script...)

- All combinations of in-game graphic settings from the very-low to the high-end)

- No ethernet / no wi-fi

- Several windows setting (DVR Xbox disable, Game mode on/off..., VRR on/off)

- Several overall settings: HPET, Hyperthreating,

- All combinations of power performance settings (GPUs, CPU and Windows)

- External applications like famous Project Laso, ParkControl...

- Some autoexec.cfg params like no_device_hotplug = true

 

Here you have 3 screenshot in 3 different situations as example: FPS capped at 100, 60 and 50. Thanks to MSI/RTSS graphs you can see the frametime spikes (different sizes) each few seconds. The curious thing is that the closer to 60 fps we limit the smaller the frametime spikes are. Once you lowered the 50 fps the frametime spikes are gone (or at least they are so small that graphs cannot show them). When game is paused (with ESC, for example) the behaviour is the same. Sometimes it seems that it's heavier with some planes and maps (for example, L-39C and Normandy are gentle with this issue, less spikes)

 

 

 

 

I'm not going to say that DCS World is a piece of ... or things like that. I love DCS World, I've spent thousand of hours (and euros... ;)) and I feel fortunate to have this unlimited platform but, at this point, the breakage of immersion ruined my experience.

 

So, If someone from ED or from this forum tells me that, after taking a look at the data I've exposed, the issue is something binded to DCS Engine and can't be solved or want me to test some possible fix or requires more information I will be pleased to do it.

 

If not, at least I hope all the tests I've done can help somebody to find his own fix.

 

P.S 1: I am not english native speaker, if you want me to explain any concept exposed please let me know.

 

P.S 2: those of you that use to say 'butter smooth' I would pay to see you frametime graph (no offense :lol:)

Edited September 1, 2020 by Rachmaninoff

[Flappie]

Hi Rachmaninoff. That is a very well detailed post, and right to the point!

 

I see you haven't tried Windows safe mode yet. It can prove very useful to find the origin of your stutters. First, please set your pagefile to 32 GB. Then, give safe mode a go:

1. Press Windows key, type "msconfig" and press Enter.
2. In the General tab, tick "Diagnostic startup" and click "Apply" (you will see some other boxes get ticked, it's OK).
3. Click OK and choose to restart your computer.
4. Log into Windows as usual, then launch DCS. You will get several error messages since your PC network is disabled. Just click OK until you see DCS main menu.
5. Fly the Su-25T in an instant action mission and watch your FPS counter.

Once you're done with testing, just open "msconfig", tick "Normal startup", click OK and restart your system, and everything will be back to normal. Then tell us if the stutters completely disappear in safe mode.

 

DISCLAIMER: the seps above did cause some big trouble to a few users. Please use at your own risk.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Flappie

[Mr_sukebe]

Do you have your preload radius set to lots?

If so, try reducing it to around 45% and see if that helps.

[Rachmaninoff]

Do you have your preload radius set to lots?

If so, try reducing it to around 45% and see if that helps.

 

Yes, I've tested a lot of values for Preload Radius and I agree with you, I get the best results (or less bad results) with 45%-55%.

 

 

@Flappie: wow ... wow ... wow ... then ...this is what heaven looks like... regular micro-stutters are GONE. It still have some isolated hitch when moving head around after a while and I've seen CPU usage at 100% at some time, but I think both can be solved playing with all previous tests and settings I exposed.

 

The question now is how can I figure out what is/are the drivers/components/items/things to blame? Is there any way to make a transition between safe mode and normal mode? Because several clean windows installations were done with no positive results.

 

In addition to these questions... THANK YOU very much. My hope has been restored, you should see the tears falling down my eyes.

[Mustang]

Check this thread, may or may not have relevence (see post #9)

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=212325

[Flappie]

In addition to these questions... THANK YOU very much. My hope has been restored, you should see the tears falling down my eyes.

I love to make people cry. :lol:

Good! Now, once you get back to Windows normal mode and his damn stutters, I need the list of all your running processes. Here's how to do it. Please attach the resulting text file.

[Rachmaninoff]

Here it is.

 

Keep in mind that some of them (RudderPedals_Profiler.exe, X55_Rhino_Profile.exe...) were not present in the test I listed in the first post.

 

 

@Mustang: thanks for your reply. Yes, I knew that post, in fact, one of the first thing I do before any test is unplug ethernet cable.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=246451&stc=1&d=1598981718

DCS_Stutter_TaskList.txt

Edited September 1, 2020 by Rachmaninoff

[Flappie]

Thank you. I've done some work on your list here. Here's what the colors mean:

 

Orange = I strongly suspect those

White = I mildly suspect those

Blue = those are probably OK

Green = part of Windows, NVIDIA or DCS, therefore certainly out of cause

 

What I want you to do is kill each of these programs starting from the top of the list, one by one, launch DCS after each "killing", and wait for stutters to happen.

 

Some programs may be restarted automatically. If this happens, you need to look for them and stop them in the "services.msc" Windows program (their names could change a bit in the Services list).

 

 

Happy hunting! :spam_laser:

 

 

[Rachmaninoff]

@flappie: I did that and, in addition, reboot in safe mode one hundred times enabling groups of services in order to find out which one was responsible of main stutters.

 

The answer is 'power' (I guess is called like this in English windows version) service. In fact, it seems that this service prevents CPU to increase its usage. It makes no sense because all individual performance plan settings to maxed out, even sometimes I've tested the whole system with Parkcontrol full performance plan.

 

I will do more tests at home ans keep you informed.

 

Enviado desde mi VTR-L09 mediante Tapatalk

[Flappie]

You're talking about this, right? This page explicitely tells us we don't want to stop this process, like, at all. :music_whistling:

It should be possible to read the Windows registry to see how exactly your PC is configured power-wise. I wait for the result of your new tests to dig into this.

[Flappie]

Hi Rachmaninoff. In case you haven't already, please try these Windows settings:

 

1. Set the high performance preset in your GPU control panel, as opposed to the high quality preset.
   
2. Set Windows power settings to High performance in the Power Options in Control Panel.
   
3. Also, beside High performance, click on Change plan settings, Change advanced power settings, in PCI Express and Link State Power Management change the Setting to Off.
   

[FupDuck]

I am necro'ing this thread because it has helped me immensely! I just built a new gaming PC for my buddy, and everything except DCS runs smoothly (RTX3070, 5600x, 32 GB 3600). On my 1080TI the game runs great so I've been pulling my hair out for the last two weeks trying to figure out why it was stuttering horribly on a brand new 3070! I didn't think it was hardware related given that other games were working fine, and I really wasn't looking forward to RMAing stuff when I didn't know for sure. But thanks to you guys, I don't have to! After disabling the power service in services.msc, the game runs like butter at 60 FPS in VR, and no ill effects observed yet due to disabling the power service. Fantastic! 

@Flappie and @RachmaninoffTHANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!

Edited October 17, 2021 by Sandmonkee

[Flappie]

Many thanks for your feedback.   I assume there's probably a "cleaner" way to ask Windows to let users handle the PC power, but as long as it works without any drawback, it's a good solution.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Flappie

[FoxxyTrotty]

May I just add - It's long been a running theme that RivaTuner (and other GPU overclocking utils) has caused a lot of issues when running alongside DCS (and i think Xplane 11 come to think of it)...

To resolve that issue, do the overclock /fan as desired and then quit the tuner BEFORE even starting DCS... no idea why this made a difference, was a huge one for me. I'm very reluctant to mess with the power services, because my system is set to run on low power, both CPU/GPU unless certain apps are loaded, and then clock rates and voltages etc crank up. No need to be running at full/overclock when i'm watching youtube or doing a bit of photoshop etc.. I know some dont mind 24/7 full power, but for me, the heat and such it generates as well as component life (lost a 1080 that way, i'm almost sure of it).

[Plon]

On 10/17/2021 at 5:21 AM, FupDuck said:

I am necro'ing this thread because it has helped me immensely! I just built a new gaming PC for my buddy, and everything except DCS runs smoothly (RTX3070, 5600x, 32 GB 3600). On my 1080TI the game runs great so I've been pulling my hair out for the last two weeks trying to figure out why it was stuttering horribly on a brand new 3070! I didn't think it was hardware related given that other games were working fine, and I really wasn't looking forward to RMAing stuff when I didn't know for sure. But thanks to you guys, I don't have to! After disabling the power service in services.msc, the game runs like butter at 60 FPS in VR, and no ill effects observed yet due to disabling the power service. Fantastic! 

@Flappie and @RachmaninoffTHANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!

 

Thank you so much @FupDuck, disabling power services solved my stuttering problem !!!
(I9 9900K, RTX 2080, 32Gb, SSD)

Edited January 8, 2022 by Plon

[FupDuck]

1 hour ago, Plon said:

Thank you so much @FupDuck, disabling power services solved my stuttering problem !!!
(I9 9900K, RTX 2080, 32Gb, SSD)

 

Thanks but it was @Flappie and @Rachmaninoff who figured it out, I was just using their info.

Glad you got it figured out though, hopefully you managed to do it in less time than it took me! 

[FupDuck]

On 10/20/2021 at 9:03 PM, FoxxyTrotty said:

May I just add - It's long been a running theme that RivaTuner (and other GPU overclocking utils) has caused a lot of issues when running alongside DCS (and i think Xplane 11 come to think of it)...

To resolve that issue, do the overclock /fan as desired and then quit the tuner BEFORE even starting DCS... no idea why this made a difference, was a huge one for me. I'm very reluctant to mess with the power services, because my system is set to run on low power, both CPU/GPU unless certain apps are loaded, and then clock rates and voltages etc crank up. No need to be running at full/overclock when i'm watching youtube or doing a bit of photoshop etc.. I know some dont mind 24/7 full power, but for me, the heat and such it generates as well as component life (lost a 1080 that way, i'm almost sure of it).

There's a couple things wrong here:

1. If you open Afterburner, Riva tuner, etc and then close it before gaming, you will not be overclocking anymore. These programs need to be running to work.

2. Killing the power service does not result in the CPU, GPU, etc running at full power all the time. When I'm not gaming my computer is quiet and cool, using very little power. The power plans I set in Windows still seem to be working, there's just no throttling or stuttering when at high usage. If you are experiencing regular stuttering every second or two like I was, I suggest giving this a try to see what effect it has. It's a very easy change to undo if you have any issues.

Good luck! 

Edited January 8, 2022 by FupDuck

[Steel Jaw]

Very interesting, while I don’t have that issue this might boost overall performance.

[Gryzor]

Where is the power service in services.msc? Can you give me the name or executable that controls it (I use non english Windows version)?

[Plon]

In english it's "Power" service, in french it's "Alimentation"... I don't know what language you are using and what could be the exact translation. You may find usefull information to find and translate it in your language here : https://www.coretechnologies.com/blog/windows-services/power/

13 hours ago, Steel Jaw said:

Very interesting, while I don’t have that issue this might boost overall performance.

It does not gave me extra fps, juste fix stuttering. You can give it a try !

Edited January 9, 2022 by Plon

[hobbes57]

Folks, could I ask *how* you disable the Power service? In my "Services" panel, I see the "Power" service running, but the Stop button is disabled (even when running Services as Administrator).

So, how do I do it?

thanks a lot,

H

[MAXsenna]

10 minutes ago, hobbes57 said:

Folks, could I ask *how* you disable the Power service? In my "Services" panel, I see the "Power" service running, but the Stop button is disabled (even when running Services as Administrator).

So, how do I do it?

thanks a lot,

H

Double click it. Disable and Restart Windows would be my guess. 

[hobbes57]

Hm, double clicking just opens the properties but I cannot Disable or Stop it there anywhere:

[MAXsenna]

Just now, hobbes57 said:

Hm, double clicking just opens the properties but I cannot Disable or Stop it there anywhere:

My bad. You need to change the Startup Type to disabled. 

Some services cannot be stopped after Windows have started, so change it and reboot.  

[Flappie]

I'm glad this solution works for users having stuttering, but I'd like to understand why some users are affected  and others aren't. Prior to disabling the "Power" service, could someone test this, please?

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/computer-starts-normally-only-when-power-service/67dcf6c1-4e67-4b2a-9a9e-8eae0d2342fb

I found some interesting (but rather old) info about "Power": https://www.coretechnologies.com/blog/windows-services/power/

Edited January 11, 2022 by Flappie