Lets talk hind variants (IRL)

[sublime]

First of all, though unlikely, if we got variants in game theyd have to be really close, like the F14 A to B.

do any Mi24s fit that bill?

second. Mi35s. Is that just the name of export 24s? Can someone go over the major variants with me and some pluses and minuses

also interested in the hinds ATGMS

designed for one that didnt get used for a decade ( shturm right?) and now use ataka (right? )

yes yes I know wikipedias there. you dont find the same quality info there as here, and Im trying to generate convo

[Fri13]

Mi-24V and Mi-24P are AFAIK identical except front cockpit layout for gun sight at front instead flight instruments.

[Avimimus]

It might actually be more interesting, if they do make another variant, to make a D... Useful for earlier time periods and using a 9M17 missile (or the front gun even) to ambush chaparrals or early model AH-1 helicopters could be dramatic.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

The difference in time frames is almost insignificant, actually! The Mi-24V and Mi-24D both entered operational service in 1976. Meanwhile, the Mi-24P became operational in 1981 (i.e. 5 years later).

[sublime]

It might actually be more interesting, if they do make another variant, to make a D... Useful for earlier time periods and using a 9M17 missile (or the front gun even) to ambush chaparrals or early model AH-1 helicopters could be dramatic.

 

I thought about this. Maybe down the road like the F14 A. Especially as the fellow above said the 2 variants are identical. maybe make a variant VERY similar to another. Or an export variant.

but Id prefer before all else a good AI gunner and the regular DCS treatment.

 

Ill add the AH1Z is another sorely needed missing playable helo =(

Id take that over the Apache tbh

[sublime]

The difference in time frames is almost insignificant, actually! The Mi-24V and Mi-24D both entered operational service in 1976. Meanwhile, the Mi-24P became operational in 1981 (i.e. 5 years later).

 

why the 5 year delay on the V?

I know the gun was anemic on the D, but the Soviets usually would just have produced both.. or one at one factory another at another.

it also is odd that 5 years later the gun seems only difference

whats the windscreen rated to for protection anyways?

are the troops really ever carried except really special missions? at all? or did that become more an emergency compartment for downed crews etc?

[MAD-MM]

The disadvantages from the MI-24 Yak Chin Gun was realy showing up in service in Afghanistan i assume. Soviet Forces showed up till the end of 1979.

Second there was not Gun that was fitting at this time to the MI-24, P-Version Gun is a extend Version from the Su-25 adapted for the MI-24.

There some changes trough the Afghan war under the Hood, new high and Hot Klimov Turbine Engines for the V and P Version

[sublime]

why is it so famously fast? youd think other attack helos would be close but its not really close

[SmukY]

why is it so famously fast? youd think other attack helos would be close but its not really close

It has a good aerodynamics. On top of that add the retractable gears and big wings that not only carry hinds weapons, they provide a huge lift and make helicopter more stabile at higher speed since it was made to keep it stabile as faster it goes. Also let's not forget the fact that whole fuselage aside from the cockpit is slightly inclined to the right for negating rotor's lateral lift at higher speed (can be clearly seen in DCS on Ka-50's lower rotor at higher speeds, and if you go too fast, you risk collision of lower and upper rotor).

Edited September 1, 2020 by SmukY

[Fri13]

why is it so famously fast? youd think other attack helos would be close but its not really close

 

One difference is that for Soviets army aviation the Hind was first real attack helicopter. Mil was first to do similar as Huey but as gunship version, but eventually ended to Mi-24 design. Speed over slow speed. It is well capable and all to hover and do nice small things on low altitude, but it really utilize its speed over agility.

 

AH-56 is a project what many should checkout. US Army loved that helicopter as it was fast and dream to fly, but it got cancelled and AH-64 came out, while much slower, it is more to traditional design.

 

Where example AFAIK AH-64 can cruise at max speed for 15-20 min, the Hind can cruise at max speed for over 3 hours. So it really can utilize its speed by engine endurance and all designs to make it low level monster to appear and disappear.

 

OH-58 Kiowa Warrior pilots love to do same, utilize speed over agility. As you fly low and go fast, the enemy has no time to shoot at you and you survive longer. Shooting with .50 cal is effective way to cause destruction, but 30 mm is like shooting frag grenades so you don't even need to aim so well (slight dispersion is just good for a cannon with HE grenades).

 

The YakB in V has a bad reputation for its firepower. But Hind was designed to European/Eurasia landscape, not to Afghanistan. There is a huge difference where Russian west is soft land, trees and all kind that, the 12,7 mm was deadly. But in Afghanistan where you have mainly rocks, you can't do much when enemy is taking cover behind a large rock as 12,7 mm doesn't penetrate it. But have a "hand grenade" blow up around him, he is toast.

 

Anyone who has shot 12,7 mm knows it is deadly and effective. Now make it a rapid shooting turret and you have very effective gun for any small and fast moving targets that you can chase with a faster helicopter and even slow down to shoot more. But 30 mm can't do that, you need to align flight vector on target and engage from distance. Possible and preferred way for Hind, but Cannon enforces to do so, so its speed is preferred method to fight.

 

Take away wings that generate about 25-30% of the lift, and Hind doesn't fly so nicely without modifications (new prototype is again unofficially fastest helicopter in the world, beating the official Lynx record, and it is without wings) and so on likely 30 mm Cannon wouldn't have been implemented at that point. So "speed is life" is true for Hind as well.

[sublime]

One difference is that for Soviets army aviation the Hind was first real attack helicopter. Mil was first to do similar as Huey but as gunship version, but eventually ended to Mi-24 design. Speed over slow speed. It is well capable and all to hover and do nice small things on low altitude, but it really utilize its speed over agility.

 

AH-56 is a project what many should checkout. US Army loved that helicopter as it was fast and dream to fly, but it got cancelled and AH-64 came out, while much slower, it is more to traditional design.

 

Where example AFAIK AH-64 can cruise at max speed for 15-20 min, the Hind can cruise at max speed for over 3 hours. So it really can utilize its speed by engine endurance and all designs to make it low level monster to appear and disappear.

 

OH-58 Kiowa Warrior pilots love to do same, utilize speed over agility. As you fly low and go fast, the enemy has no time to shoot at you and you survive longer. Shooting with .50 cal is effective way to cause destruction, but 30 mm is like shooting frag grenades so you don't even need to aim so well (slight dispersion is just good for a cannon with HE grenades).

 

The YakB in V has a bad reputation for its firepower. But Hind was designed to European/Eurasia landscape, not to Afghanistan. There is a huge difference where Russian west is soft land, trees and all kind that, the 12,7 mm was deadly. But in Afghanistan where you have mainly rocks, you can't do much when enemy is taking cover behind a large rock as 12,7 mm doesn't penetrate it. But have a "hand grenade" blow up around him, he is toast.

 

Anyone who has shot 12,7 mm knows it is deadly and effective. Now make it a rapid shooting turret and you have very effective gun for any small and fast moving targets that you can chase with a faster helicopter and even slow down to shoot more. But 30 mm can't do that, you need to align flight vector on target and engage from distance. Possible and preferred way for Hind, but Cannon enforces to do so, so its speed is preferred method to fight.

 

Take away wings that generate about 25-30% of the lift, and Hind doesn't fly so nicely without modifications (new prototype is again unofficially fastest helicopter in the world, beating the official Lynx record, and it is without wings) and so on likely 30 mm Cannon wouldn't have been implemented at that point. So "speed is life" is true for Hind as well.

Im familiar with the cheyenne

why not we can discuss that too

some say it woulda been the best ever helo. do you agree ? Is the scuttlebutt the USAF killed it true? remember in the 90s when the commanche was a 'sure thing' lol

as far as distance in landscapes us and them have learned that lesson... again

Russians started adding AKMs back in for some 7.62s. Friggin mujahids with lee enfields were killing soviets behind walls while the 5.45 wouldnt pen.

the US army reintroduced the M14 for extra range and oomph for the designated marksman

 

how much influence - even psychologically - did the shturmovik have on the mi24? it almost seems an attempt at a helo shturmovik. yet i hear the su25 referred as the shturmovik and its supposedly its spiritual successor

and now for totally o/t

itd prolly get boring fast but I get all hot and bothered at the idea of a flyable IL28 beagle

Id LOVE a su24. Su34 wont happen. The AH1Z and F4 I still mourn for. Id sell a kidney and testicle to see a A6 intruder.

Ive seen them IRL doing their thing, theyre LOUD and beautiful. plus I love the seating arrangement. Id dig a F111 too.. not as much though. OV 10 Id like too.

Red air... I doubt they can get the material they need for a full fidelity. thats why I wish DCS would FOCUS on ww2 to 1990 and beyod that do it but not so much

i know ppl love the flashy new stuff.... but theres already plenty. I also think theyd soon forget about all the super fancy stuff with a plane set that went together (not for balance, not as a bundle, but contemporaries. F4/mig19 /21. Etc etcf etC)

Edited September 1, 2020 by sublime

[sublime]

thx for the answers

now beyond my questions previous and thoughts

lets talk in game MI24

what u guys think AI will look like

What quirks do you know of?

she carries bombs - were these popular to use? seems Russians always really liked rockets

does anyone have a link with a translated pit diagram

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Some of the designers of the Mi-24 had worked on the Il-2 back in the day, and were well-acquainted with its features. The influence it had was mostly in a tactical sense though, helping them visualise how to create a machine that integrates seamlessly with the ground forces.

 

AI according to original spec will be a gunner that provides target call-outs and handles Shturm/Ataka launches, and a pilot that can hold specific speeds, altitudes or atitudes. How much input is needed is yet to be seen.

 

Bombs were used but generally speaking they preferred rockets. Still, the gunsight is able to run CCIP-style bombing attacks if you want.

 

This link has a pilot cockpit diagram for the Mi-24V, which applies to the Mi-24P as well with minor exceptions.

[WinterH]

First of all, though unlikely, if we got variants in game theyd have to be really close, like the F14 A to B.

do any Mi24s fit that bill?

second. Mi35s. Is that just the name of export 24s? Can someone go over the major variants with me and some pluses and minuses

also interested in the hinds ATGMS

designed for one that didnt get used for a decade ( shturm right?) and now use ataka (right? )

yes yes I know wikipedias there. you dont find the same quality info there as here, and Im trying to generate convo

 

First off, I don't think F-14A and B are VERY similar, but that's just a tangent, so quickly back to topic:

 

Mi-24P and V are quite similar as far as I know. Perhaps ED will later think about including it as well, we'll see.

 

Mi-35 was just the export model for a while, but nowadays it also means the latest variant Russian military operates, and it is very, very different compared to Mi-24P.

 

Shturm and Ataka are more similar than different, but I think Hind used Shturm as the primary armament for quite a while from 80s to 90s, probably also some of 2000s. I think they could be guided by more or less the same system. Looks like we'll have both available in our DCS Hind.

 

Though if you've meant that the Hind was designed for Shturm but ended up having to use old Fleyta missiles for a long time than yes, that was the case. I think those were used by variants before V and P however. They were very slow and short ranged missiles. Also not sure but I think those variants also only carried these ATGMs on wingtip stations for a maximum of 4, where the later ones can also use the middle stations for missiles for up to 8 missiles.

 

Current Mi-35M is more or less a completely different helo: has a modern FLIR turret as its main sighting system, can't raise landing gear anymore, has Mi-28's main and tail rotors, can use 8 pack Ataka launchers BUT, I think only on one side, so I'm not sure if 16 Atakas are possible on them either.

 

There's also the Mi-24VP, which apparently was also the basis for some of the exports, with a 23mm GSh-23L in the chin turret instead of P's fixed 30mm or V's 12.7 turret. That was apparently a very rare variant though, and don't know if it really was very similar or somewhat different from V and P.

 

Mi-24P thread here in EN and also on RU parts of the forum is very informative BTW, I read the RU one wit Google translate and it's doing a pretty good job, but some of the users from Russian part are also providing great info in the English thread.

 

As for the bombs, not sure but I seem to recall that either V or P has a bombsight, but not both, one of the differences between them. I'll personally stick to rockets and missiles for the most part :P

 

From what I recall reading the threads, ordnance options we will have seem to be:

- Rockets: S-5s in 32 piece pods, S-8 in 20 piece pods, S-13 in 5 packs and possibly also S-24 in singles. Looks like the pilot's gunsight will provide a targeting pipper for S-5 and S-8, but the others need to be shot manually with a fixed sight.

- ATGMS: Shturm and Ataka, pretty fast missiles, and have decent ranges, more so with Ataka. Though there is no automatic target tracking, operator points the sight, and the missile goes there.

- R-60: Some Mi-24Ps stationed in East Germany were modified with this capability to patrol against slow and low general aviation planes violating airspace. Looks like ED is considering to include this capability in DCS version too.

 

Bombs were mentioned too I think, but I'm not entirely sure. Also other assorted armament like GUV gunpods (as in Mi-8) were also mentioned I think.

 

Man I'm really looking forward to this thing :))

[Dudikoff]

Current Mi-35M is more or less a completely different helo: has a modern FLIR turret as its main sighting system, can't raise landing gear anymore, has Mi-28's main and tail rotors, can use 8 pack Ataka launchers BUT, I think only on one side, so I'm not sure if 16 Atakas are possible on them either.

 

There's also the Mi-24VP, which apparently was also the basis for some of the exports, with a 23mm GSh-23L in the chin turret instead of P's fixed 30mm or V's 12.7 turret. That was apparently a very rare variant though, and don't know if it really was very similar or somewhat different from V and P.

 

IIRC, the VP was rare as it was the last variant to enter production and Soviet Union went broke at that point.

 

The armament itself was a solid compromise between V and P apparently as the Mi-35M continues to use the same dual 23 mm gun turret configuration.

[sublime]

First off, I don't think F-14A and B are VERY similar, but that's just a tangent, so quickly back to topic:

 

Mi-24P and V are quite similar as far as I know. Perhaps ED will later think about including it as well, we'll see.

 

Mi-35 was just the export model for a while, but nowadays it also means the latest variant Russian military operates, and it is very, very different compared to Mi-24P.

 

Shturm and Ataka are more similar than different, but I think Hind used Shturm as the primary armament for quite a while from 80s to 90s, probably also some of 2000s. I think they could be guided by more or less the same system. Looks like we'll have both available in our DCS Hind.

 

Though if you've meant that the Hind was designed for Shturm but ended up having to use old Fleyta missiles for a long time than yes, that was the case. I think those were used by variants before V and P however. They were very slow and short ranged missiles. Also not sure but I think those variants also only carried these ATGMs on wingtip stations for a maximum of 4, where the later ones can also use the middle stations for missiles for up to 8 missiles.

 

Current Mi-35M is more or less a completely different helo: has a modern FLIR turret as its main sighting system, can't raise landing gear anymore, has Mi-28's main and tail rotors, can use 8 pack Ataka launchers BUT, I think only on one side, so I'm not sure if 16 Atakas are possible on them either.

 

There's also the Mi-24VP, which apparently was also the basis for some of the exports, with a 23mm GSh-23L in the chin turret instead of P's fixed 30mm or V's 12.7 turret. That was apparently a very rare variant though, and don't know if it really was very similar or somewhat different from V and P.

 

Mi-24P thread here in EN and also on RU parts of the forum is very informative BTW, I read the RU one wit Google translate and it's doing a pretty good job, but some of the users from Russian part are also providing great info in the English thread.

 

As for the bombs, not sure but I seem to recall that either V or P has a bombsight, but not both, one of the differences between them. I'll personally stick to rockets and missiles for the most part :P

 

From what I recall reading the threads, ordnance options we will have seem to be:

- Rockets: S-5s in 32 piece pods, S-8 in 20 piece pods, S-13 in 5 packs and possibly also S-24 in singles. Looks like the pilot's gunsight will provide a targeting pipper for S-5 and S-8, but the others need to be shot manually with a fixed sight.

- ATGMS: Shturm and Ataka, pretty fast missiles, and have decent ranges, more so with Ataka. Though there is no automatic target tracking, operator points the sight, and the missile goes there.

- R-60: Some Mi-24Ps stationed in East Germany were modified with this capability to patrol against slow and low general aviation planes violating airspace. Looks like ED is considering to include this capability in DCS version too.

 

Bombs were mentioned too I think, but I'm not entirely sure. Also other assorted armament like GUV gunpods (as in Mi-8) were also mentioned I think.

 

Man I'm really looking forward to this thing :))

 

besides the engines, glove vanes being locked closed, and ISRT to the camera... and the large HSI to a TID repeater for pilot its the same? it could still be a bombcat, no one really thought of it. It could do LGB stuff, technically but not in practice when the navy ran A+ and Bs. The Tf30 and F110 is the big difference. otherwise same radar, same tunnel for weapons, range, speed, 2 man crew..

but agreed Im dying for the mi24 its been my favorite attack helo since early age

yes I think the r60s were spurred by the stunt the kid landing in moscow did and ppl escaping.

I know it carried and could carry bombs for a fact. how much they did in combat Idk.. the old old missiles were *falanga* not fleyta. used from late 60s to end of 70s as a stop gap. they were radio guided IIRC.

Ill stick with atgms and rockets too. unless they have fuel air bombs, or special mines or something, I dont see much use.

I am excited to do self escort CSAR with it.

[sublime]

Some of the designers of the Mi-24 had worked on the Il-2 back in the day, and were well-acquainted with its features. The influence it had was mostly in a tactical sense though, helping them visualise how to create a machine that integrates seamlessly with the ground forces.

 

AI according to original spec will be a gunner that provides target call-outs and handles Shturm/Ataka launches, and a pilot that can hold specific speeds, altitudes or atitudes. How much input is needed is yet to be seen.

 

Bombs were used but generally speaking they preferred rockets. Still, the gunsight is able to run CCIP-style bombing attacks if you want.

 

This link has a pilot cockpit diagram for the Mi-24V, which applies to the Mi-24P as well with minor exceptions.

 

I always liked the cockpit. it wasnt cluttered. close but not there.

[AeriaGloria]

CCIP? If we get one without laser range finding, how would that work? I always assumed we would be stuck with tables

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Triangulation using the radar altimeter, same deal as the Su-25 without using the rangefinder, or the MiG-21 or the Mirage 2000 when the radar is off.

[T0x1s]

I really hope we can see the V version later on. I understand the reason behind the P variant and I'm looking forward to use the 30mm but I believe the V variant will be a nice addition together with multi crew once that is completed :)

[Hammer1-1]

So why did they choose the P variant? Im curious as to why we get a bird that doesnt have a rotating chain gun. Not complaining again, just curious.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Quoting from another thread:

 

ED (or rather, Belsimtek, back in the research phase of the project) visited active duty regiments and spoke to both pilots and gunners, and were unanimously told that the 12.7mm machine gun is as good as ballast, so the crews recommended they model the 30mm cannon instead as that one was found to be very useful tactically.

 

While this isn't explicitly said, I suspect other Mi-24D and Mi-24V operators share this opinion, as there are a lot of photos of the helicopters flying either with the gun dismounted, or with 23mm cannon pods under the wings to compensate for the lack of firepower.

[sublime]

So why did they choose the P variant? Im curious as to why we get a bird that doesnt have a rotating chain gun. Not complaining again, just curious.

 

everyone loves the concept. remember the hind game from the 90s ? however as time passed and militaries joined nato or hinds openly just became for sale we found out (and also talked to russian vets) and found out the 50 call was near useless for its role. thats why no turret 50 cal

the more you think about 4 30mm fixed it sounds sexy... shes fast..

[Hammer1-1]

Didnt know it was 12.7mm. Hell I always thought it compared to what the Cobra had on its chin turrets - 20mm.

[sublime]

Didnt know it was 12.7mm. Hell I always thought it compared to what the Cobra had on its chin turrets - 20mm.

 

Nah... 12.7 =/