What did you do to my MiG?

[cro_mig_21]

That's the primary reason why I'd love to see the F-13 in the game. Along with the Fresco it'd create a perfect REDFOR lineup for Vietnam war operations as well as some early to mid-1960s Middle East scenarios.

 

My friends and I did some testing of the Bis today. The loss of pitch authority occurs at above 780-800 kph IAS. With the stick fully aft the plane is incapable of exceeding 5 g and ~11 deg alpha (as indicated by the cockpit gauge). I tried the manual ARU and it does improve matters a lot, but one has to be careful as the plane is perfectly capable of ripping its wings off at high enough g loadings (which is hardly a surprise).

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4470304&postcount=178

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4470317&postcount=179

[Aluminum Donkey]

Why is it flying like a rabid seagull with a 10 pound shit in its ass? Is this wing rocking, barrel rolling atrocity truly the best you have? It was just fine before. A bit of a workout, sure, but not...this. You even had an entire thread on this forum thanking you for the flight model. And you go and ruin it. Why?

 

I haven't noticed anything screwy about the MiG-21bis with regards to the handling qualities, but holy smokes is it ever anemic now! It barely gets out of its own way even with secondary afterburner, no external weapons/racks, and no external fuel.

 

Maybe the real thing really does have leisurely acceleration, who knows... Frankly, I've never flown a real MiG-21. It just seems really underpowered now, even when loaded lightly and nothing on it to produce drag. Getting it above Mach 1 takes forever and a day.

 

But, and it's a big, hairy, sweaty but, if the real plane is like this then that's how it should be.

 

AD

[gavagai]

haven't noticed anything screwy about the MiG-21bis with regards to the handling qualities

 

Inability to pull AoA at medium/high airspeeds is already a confirmed bug. Will be fixed in the next patch (fingers crossed).

[Hiromachi]

Yes, Im checking every day sekrit test server if its already there to make sure its back to where it was. Fingers crossed here too :)

[Bozon]

Inability to pull AoA at medium/high airspeeds is already a confirmed bug. Will be fixed in the next patch (fingers crossed).

Thanks.

I flew my Bis and was wondering about that odd new behavior.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Yes, Im checking every day sekrit test server if its already there to make sure its back to where it was. Fingers crossed here too :)

 

sekrit dokuments confirmed.

 

SMH.

[Pr0metheus]

Well, that was a nasty surprise yesterday online when I hit merge with F-5... it felt like I had max bomb loadout on my pylons and one in my lap :huh: I had to go and check my axis, thought something was wrong with my stick :joystick: until I came here and saw other posting the same symptoms. Is this issue officially confirmed and on bug tracker and more importantly is it going to be fixed by next update?

[_Firefly]

Is this issue officially confirmed and on bug tracker and more importantly is it going to be fixed by next update?

 

Yup, check Hiromachi's previous posts in this very thread.

[Andrew8604]

I am here because last time I flew the MiG-21 was on June 3rd, this year, and I thought it flew pretty good. That was in the Normandy map (flying there because is looks a little more Vietnam-like). Now, Sept 6th, I fly it again, but in the Nevada map, and v2.5.6.53756. I agree with comments here: Before reading any comments my impression of the MiG-21bis is that it now seems sloppy in pitch and and the pitch trimmer seems overly sensitive, or coarse...difficult to find that "just right" position. Roll seems okay, though. I'm just trying to fly a gentle practice cruise profile, from Nellis, up to 33,000-ish feet/10km, with 800-L centerline tank and 2 R-3S (sidewinders). Went out 250nm and made it back with only about 500-ltrs of fuel.

 

My comments to myself were, "It feels like someone put a big block of lead in the nose." The 800-ltr centerline tank was empty before I could get through 20,000', without using AB and trying to keep speed about 600kmh/M0.72. I used AB from takeoff through 350 kts in a gentle climb. I kept looking to see if the speed brakes were out or flaps or gear or something...like something was holding 'er back. Doesn't seem like a fuel tank and two "Sidewinders" would make that much difference. It sure doesn't on the F-5E, which flies nice, same version, same route, same weather. I could get about 500NM out of it in practically the same config, and get back with 1,100 lbs...and the MiG-21 used to be a 'hotter' jet than the F-5E...not no more. So, something must have messed up the -21 flight model, between June and now. I know my remarks are subjective. It's difficult to be a test pilot and bring back objective results.

 

So updating to .54046 to see if that helps, somehow. Although, by the changelog, it doesn't appear that it should.

[theGozr]

Mmmmmmm! Bouncing pitch effect I am not sure of this..

[ZnarF]

Same here: when landing, around 340-400 km/h, the 21 shows some big pitch oscillations, making the ground contact impossible!! Mmmh....

[NeMoGas]

Yeah pitch oscillation seems really bad during landing.

[_Firefly]

Dunno, I landed the Fishbed about 5 times today and never had a problem with pitch oscillation during landing, no matter what the weight of the aircraft was. FYI, my typical touchdown speed is about 280 to 290 km/h with about 1000 litres of fuel left and up to 2 missiles still on their pylons.

 

The pitch trimmer has always been difficult to adjust perfectly. I often find myself balancing the tightrope of throttle input vs. trim. I've gotten used to the constant pitch trim adjustments, so that's no big deal to me. Not sure if that's how it should be though.

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

I'm struggling with the mig21 too. The pitch limited at hi speed is hurting but I wish we had some sound feedback as it approaches AOA stall. It's impossible to watch the AOA indicator while riding the edge and looking up at the enemy aircraft. Some buffeting noise would REALLY help me fly this plane better. I can see vaper/ turbulent flow if I look over my shoulder at high alpha. Would that be audible in real life?

 

I have also noticed that if I do go over AOA and into stall it's now quite controllable with the stick all the way back and using rudder to roll. Right down to 200kp/h. I've had a few fights where I was able to force an overshoot by going into something like a deep stall and rolling with rudder. After the violent wing drop just pull the stick all the way back and it's is surprisingly controllable. I had a 7 minute fight with a F-14 on cold war ... he would out turn me and I would force an over shoot with this maneuver.. over and over ...

 

It seems the FM has evolved a lot over the years.

[rossmum]

I glance back and forth if I have to. You develop a feel for the correct stick deflection to ride the edge after a while, but it's not foolproof and I find the less I glance back at the UUA, the more I wobble. It's worth noting though, the 21 was known to not develop a stall buffet at low speeds - it only did so at higher speeds, well beyond where you're likely to be running into problems in DCS.

 

Really, it seems like one of those things you just won't quite get until you're holding the real stick in your hands, with the correct position for trim and such. Without a FFB stick to trim it's really annoying as trim position can throw out your sense of how much you can pull.

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

I'm using an old FFB stick and a couple of years ago I was pretty good at riding the edge in the mig 21 but not any more.

 

Some of that is stick time. I had a lot more back then. Maybe i'm just rusty but it seems to have changed also. I really can't imagine how anyone flies it without a FFb stick. Must be hard.

 

I switched the ARU to manual and turned the sensitivity all the way up and that made a big difference. Thanks for that suggestion

[gavagai]

It is fixed now! Can actually pull g!

[Hiromachi]

Pull pull pull :)

[_Firefly]

The plane is in a great spot now. It feels more realistic than the old FM but not nearly as constrained as the improved (but bugged) model. Can't comment on the exact parameters because I haven't done back-to-back testing, but being able to fight it out against the F-5 in most regimes is great. In a perverse way I think the bugged FM might've helped my piloting skills a little bit. Thanks M3 for fixing this! Now to get rid of all the other bugs... ;)

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

can't wait to try it

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

I just tried the FM and IMO think it's the best it's ever been. Bravo.

 

Still very challenging to fly if you go over AOA limits it drops a wing without warning but

once you are down to very slow speed you can control nicely at high AOA.

 

This is really fun to fly like this.

 

You can see I drop a wing at 1.02 sec and then held the stick back and just used rudder to roll till until I got gun on Tiger. I love it.

 

 

[WelshZeCorgi]

I've only flied for about 30 minutes, but from what I've done it's pretty great, realistic? dunno, never flew the real thing but it's definitely not as "pitchy" and doesn't oscillate when the recovery button is engaged so it's a much smoother, input-responsive ride. Great job guys!

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

Incase anybody doesn't know about this. We have detailed description from the USAF aggressor pilots use of the MiG-21 at slow speed and high AOA, full aft stick and rudder rolls.

 

That's where I got the idea to try this counter intuitive tactics.

 

Read page 4 -5

 

"Even the mighty F-15 Eagle had no solution in dogfight below 150-250 knots against MiG-21 in US Aggressor hands...This way Mig-21 will remain behind every opponent still having sufficient control ability for gun tracking using rudder rolls...It is obvious that US aggressor pilots pulled full aft stick in turn regardless of the lateral oscillations, roll off and temporary loss of control. "

 

[xnomad]

I flew it last night against the F-4's in the quick missions, it's an absolute beast now, if only I could figure out how to consistently pull lead with that cannon :-D

I don't think I overpulled AOA even once. Really easy to keep energy up, I think people in MP will get a shock. Not sure if it's realistic but the 21 must have had something going for it in real life and before I found it didn't.

 

Previously in the quick missions against the F-4 I'd quickly have to prepare the cockpit in a mad rush and keep the F-4 in sight and clear of my 6 O'clock. Now you can take your time arming up and kill the phantoms when you are good and ready.