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My two cents about the turn this community is taking


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This is the second time I am writing this message because the first one was deleted due to rule 1.2. This time I remove any reference that can be interpreted as offensive for some types of users, obviously this is a castration of freedom of speech since these users write falsehoods but are left to do as long as they protect the idea of buying to support.

 

Premise: I know I know, the older ones among you might tell me that it has always been like this, but I see that lately the situation is getting worse.

 

I will try to express myself in the least offensive way possible. Although I have recently joined, I have been reading the forum for years now. For some time now I have been noticing a certain bad behavior regarding various aspects of the sim from users. I find their "assertions" and "requests" to be counterproductive and above all wrong.

 

It is as if they did not understand that the beauty of this sim lies in the scientific reproduction of the reality of flight in combat aircraft that true enthusiasts love.

Let me give you some of the most famous claims i heard on the forum that if you let them go i'm afraid that will dirty the community of this beautiful simulator.

The thing that bothers me is that someone should remind us all of the way things are.

 

First thing I heard:

1) "I want my module to be competitive online" "It's not competitive enough online" "it's not competitive against..." "online is everything sp it doesn't matter ... etc .." (and they complain to the developers)

 

My two cents:

Let me explain what i think. First of all, you can't just expect that what you like is done, there are rules. A true flying enthusiast finds a way to become competitive by improving himself and just wants his modules to be as realistic as possible.

If you are shot down immediately it's your fault so pls stop asking devs to improve your favorite module just becouse you want to win with what you've buy.

Thx.

 

Second thing I heard:

2) "the avionics is the most important part" "the systems are not complete, don't fix the FM do the systems first!" "Will my module have this weapon at the exit?" "you can't have the feeling of the real pilot so you can't need to have a precise FM .. etc ..."

 

My two cents:

It is clear that some people don't care much about flight, more than anything else they prefer just pressing buttons and raising and lowering the cockpit levers.

Many time i read the most disparate excuses to discredit those who demand precision and realism from the FM by talking about things like the "feeling" of the pilot at the controls and then are the first who buys the hotas of the F16 with pressure sensor and two buttons useful only to the real pilot and not to simmers. I find this thing a little hypocritical if you allow me the expression.

So if you enjoy clicking to sporadically set the avionics of your module can at least remebrer that DCS is a flight simulator? Flight, not avionics simulator.

Thx.

 

Third thing I heard:

3) (I heard it so many times that I was almost convinced)

"ED need money so we must support it by buying modules in EA" "with EA they finance the module until it is completed" "if it were not for the EA would have nothing ... etc..."

 

My two cents:

My dear friends try to think about this:

In your opinion, who has to build the module to be able to do it at the beginning has only half of the documentation or has it all ready?

As we all know it is the second, so the EA is a way to skin chickens (sorry ED but I had to say it, you can't think everyone is blind or put their heads down.)

 

Let me think about this other thing: Even if it were a question of money (and if it is, it is partially), how much is your time spent playing DCS worth over a 3-5 year lifetime? Wouldn't it be better to wait 1 max 2 years putting aside some money to pay for a 200 bucks form but that is complete as we have never seen? Personally my years of life are worth, i don't know yours but mine are.

 

Fourth thing I heard:

4) (this is recent)

"ED and the third parties have agreed not to make the FM too realistic otherwise they could use it to know the true performance of the jet" (just :doh: )

 

Again my two cents:

The first time i found this assertion i asked myself just why?, and I'm still wondering why this nonsense .

If something is classified, is still classified, but you really think "they" can't reverse engineer or spy on confidential information? pls stop writing certain things just to excuse issues with the most important part, the FM.

Thx.

 

I would have others but in order not to dwell too much, take a look here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=283763

This guy has only expressed his legitimate and shared opinion and look at how many come out with looking not to argue his speech at all in order to defend what? we will never know becouse the post has been closed, of course :glare:

 

I don't mean to be rude but I consider this actions bad actions, and since we are still in a democratic regime with freedom of expression, I think i can express my point of view and expect responses and sensible interventions from those in charge that do not conceal the problems we are experiencing with a lack of clarity.

 

In conclusion, I urge the community to grow up, and to focus on what we should really ask for. Don't look to the future, think of the present, don't follow the hype because even though ED is making its way, practically everything it does has already been on the market for years now, there's nothing to celebrate.

 

We are not "bug testers/beta tester" we are buyers.

 

Thank you.


Edited by Expert

My two cents about the turn this community is taking

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=284141

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Still the same opinion:

 

1.: yes

 

2.: yes

 

3.: Nope. EA is a valid way to finance your company and pay for stuff you can not sell. Dont like EA, dont use it. Besides - it safes a lot of money in terms of hireing beta testers.

 

4.: agree to parts of it.

 

And: its called open beta for a reason - see point three. Stick to stable if you mind helping out and get stuff earlier in return.

 

Oh - and i urge you to grow up, stop beeing bitter and take stuff as is is since you will not be able to change it anyway. There will be a lot of strange (in some eyes) requests here, and everyone of them has a valid point to who ever made that request. Not moaning about them is called respect. ED will decide what is good for DCS and what is not. So... yeah. And perhaps stop insulting people and admins because of the way they run that Board here. You can always go and use another one.

 

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Edited by OPEC

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Still the same opinion:

3.: Nope. EA is a valid way to finance your company and pay for stuff you can not sell. Dont like EA, dont use it. Besides it safes a lot of money in terms of hireing beta testers.

.. so the EA is a way to skin chickens..

Thanks for responding

Thx dude for fully confirming what i was saying. I'm sure they are delighted that most of the user hates their wallet and does not value the life time lost behind the incompleteness of a module as precious. Nonetheless, the best psychoanalysts are behind these market tactics.

 

...and i urge you to grow up, stop beeing bitter and take stuff as is is since you will not be able to change it anyway..... and everyone has a valid point to request... Not moaning about them is called respect... ED will decide what is good for DCS.... And perhaps stop insulting people and admins.... You can always go and use another one.

Here is the classic behavior I was talking about ... buying to support ... of course is your point of view.

 

You are making unproductive speeches and covering up my words, you must understand that I am not against betas, against EAs etc ...

The problem I have pointed out is another. I am against "ideas and words" of users who do not realize that everything has become a perennial EA that often comes out rather incomplete at the beginning (see f-16) and despite this they pretend that everyone agrees that this is the best way. They feel part of the devs, we are not, we are just buyers.

 

As for the so-called insults, i realize they may seem so, i apologize for that, but how should i define a fanboy attitude if not as a child's attitude?

I mean these are things that exist in all sectors, are we really getting to the point where we can't talk about them anymore?

There is a lot of hypocrisy and narcissism behind these alleged post.

The psychological part of a (all)community is important, in addition to the fact that free expression can only help.

So censoring me and letting people reply to posts like in the link i post above leaves me with a clear insight into what this forum is becoming. Just my freedom of speech.

 

Have a nice day.


Edited by Expert

My two cents about the turn this community is taking

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=284141

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I used to buy to support, the Hawk cured me of that.

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Thanks for responding

Thx dude for fully confirming what i was saying. I'm sure they are delighted that most of the user hates their wallet and does not value the life time lost behind the incompleteness of a module as precious. Nonetheless, the best psychoanalysts are behind these market tactics.

 

 

Here is the classic behavior I was talking about ... buying to support ... of course is your point of view.

 

You are making unproductive speeches and covering up my words, you must understand that I am not against betas, against EAs etc ...

The problem I have pointed out is another. I am against "ideas and words" of users who do not realize that everything has become a perennial EA that often comes out rather incomplete at the beginning (see f-16) and despite this they pretend that everyone agrees that this is the best way. They feel part of the devs, we are not, we are just buyers.

 

As for the so-called insults, i realize they may seem so, i apologize for that, but how should i define a fanboy attitude if not as a child's attitude?

I mean these are things that exist in all sectors, are we really getting to the point where we can't talk about them anymore?

There is a lot of hypocrisy and narcissism behind these alleged DCS post.

The psychological part of a (all)community is important, in addition to the fact that free expression can only help.

So censoring me and letting people reply to posts like in the link i post above leaves me with a clear insight into what this forum is becoming. Just my freedom of speech.

 

Have a nice day.

 

First of all, stop calling me "dude". Im not your "dude" by any means.

 

The thing is: you can talk about you. You can not talk for me or other users. So if we (the mayority of the users) do not have a problem with buying feature incomplete modules because we want to - thats just how it is. And its not like its a big surprise to anyone. I knew that the F-16 was incomplete. And yes - the F-16 was a bit of a clusterf... but i guess ED learned a valuable lesson.

 

I or we, whatever term you like do not feel as part of the devs, but as part of a community, ok? We are passionate about what we like. So naturally we like to support the developers. Does it mean i welcome everything ED does or decides? Hell no. Does it mean i buy everthing released? 'course not. I buy what i like to support. I hate Warbirds, I hate their helicopter choices so i have nothing WWII related and no helicopters. Until they release one i like. That one i will then buy happily to support the devs. Easy as that.

 

As for defining a fanboy attitude - passion would be the right word for it - nothing to do with beeing childish or what ever. Passion and caring about something you like.

 

We can talk about anything, but there is more to it then just one valid opinion.

 

And for your beloved freedom of speech: Muahahahaha!!!

 

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... This time I remove any reference that can be interpreted as offensive for some types of users, obviously this is a castration of freedom of speech

...

I don't mean to be rude but I consider this actions bad actions, and since we are still in a democratic regime with freedom of expression, I think i can express my point of view

...

 

I wonder if you really understand your terms: fredom of speech and freedom of expression are civil rights, exercised on public places or media.

 

Here you are on a private Forum, which you are granted access only if you accept to abide by the Forum rules:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en

 

So, please stop trying to victimize yourself .. no one forbids you to have your own views on these matters, but you should give the same privilege to other forum members.

 

:noexpression:

 

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Placed on ignore....

 

I’m on the verge of doing the same, as I really don’t like to read the writings of negative people.

 

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So, lemme get this straight, you've been reading for years but not actively contributing, and now come along to preach to the "community" about how they should act and respond?

 

You've had all those years you've been reading to jump in and start being the change you want to see. To guide people and discussions, to correct and to teach, but you did not.

Instead you'd rather just decry "the community"at large but still distance yourself, not get involved and not try and improve it?

 

G'luck on that high horse of yours.

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I used to buy to support, the Hawk cured me of that.

Yikes! I know what you mean my man! Those dudes slithered out of Dodge City in the middle of the night.

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Placed on ignore....

Thx for replying, I appreciate it, i would like to know your mature opinion, otherwise bye and have a great time, because for now you are only confirming my reasons.

I wonder if you really understand your terms: fredom of speech and freedom of expression are civil rights, exercised on public places or media.

Here you are on a private Forum, which you are granted access only if you accept to abide by the Forum rules:

So, please stop trying to victimize yourself .. no one forbids you to have your own views on these matters, but you should give the same privilege to other forum members.

You know what? you are absolutely right, in fact I cannot answer you due to rule 1.3. Like you pointed we accept the rules and so we must fallow them. Thx for comment and goodbye.

I’m on the verge of doing the same, as I really don’t like to read the writings of negative people.

I'm sorry you're feeling this, i can only say goodbye to you because for now you are only confirming my reasons.

So, lemme get this straight, you've been reading for years but not actively contributing....

As you see from your answer, you are confirming the things said in my post, it seems that you prefer the confrontation avoiding the subject of the question. If you do not want to argue it is your legitimate and respectable decision, I will not answer any questions evading the post, intentional or not. Let's not throw it too personal.

Anyway thx for comment bye.

 

You proclaim the right to freely post what you want to say, while decrying what others post:

I'm sorry you don't understand my intentions, please read carefully.


Edited by Expert

My two cents about the turn this community is taking

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=284141

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First of all, stop calling me "dude". Im not your "dude" by any means

As you want

..but i guess ED learned a valuable lesson..

I can only respond you down with your own words since you're using your freedom of speech, and let me tell you, in an impractical way.

And for your beloved freedom of speech: Muahahahaha!!!

So if we (the mayority of the users) do not have a problem with buying feature incomplete modules because we want to - thats just how it is.

Thanks for proving that I'm right.

I or we, whatever term you like do not feel as part of the devs, but as part of a community, ok? We are passionate about what we like. So naturally we like to support the developers. Does it mean i welcome everything ED does or decides? Hell no. Does it mean i buy everthing released? 'course not.

Sorry but I find it a confused thought, I don't understand; you feel part of the devs, you see the problems (ex F16 and F18 toghether with a lot of other modules ..) but you don't want to criticize them and you accept how things are handled (and you are happy to pay 5 years in advance to enrich the " home "and wasting years of life waiting for small constant improvements) and then tell me that since you are most (I don't think so) then I should silently accept?

As for defining a fanboy attitude passion would be the right word for it nothing to do with beeing childish or what ever. Passion and caring about something you like.

Here I disagree. You are obviously free to say what you want but if the sun is yellow and you tell me that you can say it is pink because it is just an opinion, this is not correct.

You have to separate fanboy hype with passion.

The typical signs of a fanboy are, the hype, the loyalty to the brand, the desire to support each product just because they "like it" regardless if it is valid or if the seller makes money on it (is legal but you know ..) These are facts, it is so everywhere.

A flying enthusiast, on the other hand can certainly feel the hype and be excited, but after an analysis he gets tired of having paid for something that takes years to complete.

The problem comes when the fanboysm takes over and starts saying the things i argued in my post.

 

Bye


Edited by Expert

My two cents about the turn this community is taking

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=284141

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As you see from your answer, you are confirming the things said in my post, it seems that you prefer the confrontation avoiding the subject of the question. If you do not want to argue it is your legitimate and respectable decision, I will not answer any questions evading the post, intentional or not. Let's not throw it too personal.

Anyway thx for comment bye.

My posting history is freely available to view. You will see I do not prescribe to the four accusations you are placing on people in the community, and are more than happy to argue the subject matter when relevant.

 

This isn't one of those threads.

 

I shall also point out the hypocritical nature of your OP, considering you clearly came for confrontation, rather than, as I suggested, actually engaging with the community by action.

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As you want

 

I can only respond you down with your own words since you're using your freedom of speech, and let me tell you, in an impractical way.

 

 

Thanks for proving that I'm right.

 

Sorry but I find it a confused thought, I don't understand; you feel part of the devs, you see the problems (ex F16 and F18 toghether with a lot of other modules ..) but you don't want to criticize them and you accept how things are handled (and you are happy to pay 5 years in advance to enrich the " home "and wasting years of life waiting for small constant improvements) and then tell me that since you are most (I don't think so) then I should silently accept?

 

Here I disagree. You are obviously free to say what you want but if the sun is yellow and you tell me that you can say it is pink because it is just an opinion, this is not correct.

You have to separate fanboy hype with passion.

The typical signs of a fanboy are, the hype, the loyalty to the brand, the desire to support each product just because they "like it" regardless if it is valid or if the seller makes money on it (is legal but you know ..) These are facts, it is so everywhere.

A flying enthusiast, on the other hand can certainly feel the hype and be excited, but after an analysis he gets tired of having paid for something that takes years to complete.

The problem comes when the fanboysm takes over and starts saying the things i argued in my post.

 

Bye

If the only point of your posts is to be right you should probably rethink your actions here. As long as you are unwilling to accept, that there are people who might have a different opinion than you, you should not be in this forum, letalone any forum.

 

You urge people to grow up? First and foremost you should learn a little tolerance towards other peoples opinion. Then start beeing a productive member of the board. Contribute not smack peoples head in. Help, not confrontate.

 

And until you learn to do so, i will no longer feed the trolls.

 

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1) Agreed

 

2) Both, the FM as well as the systems are important to be done right.

 

3) There's good EA and there's bad EA. For me, the ED modules (Hornet, Viper) are examples for very good EA, as their development is transparent, continiously progressing since EA launch at a reasonable pace and the product gets better and better.

Bad examples for EA are the RAZBAM modules, which are often getting worse instead of better and take a really looooong time to finish.

Hence I have absolutly no problem to buy into EA for ED's modules, but refrain from doing so with razbam modules.

 

4) The FM (as well as the systems modelling!) needs to be ac accurate as possible. If, for whatever reasons, the FM and SM can't get at least close to real life, then the module might not be a good choice to develop for DCS.

 

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Second thing I heard:

2) "the avionics is the most important part" ...

My two cents:

It is clear that some people don't care much about flight, more than anything else they prefer just pressing buttons and raising and lowering the cockpit levers.

Many time i read the most disparate excuses to discredit those who demand precision and realism from the FM

 

 

Modern jets are specifically designed to be easy to fly...hard to fight

Look at the difference in flying as you progress from say an F86 to an F5 to an F16

Modern FBW jets are specifically designed to "fly on rails" and give the pilot the easiest flying experience because so much concentration is needed to "fight" the aircraft...the pilot isn't thinking about flying - he's thinking about Comms, Situational awareness in a complex tactical environment, sensors, weapon systems, integration with other flights...

Its not World War One and we're not having to "blip" the fuel valve to control our speed on our ratary engined bi-planes are we?

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So when someone disagrees with you it automatically makes you right, and "confirms" that we all are immature? :doh:

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So when someone disagrees with you it automatically makes you right, and "confirms" that we all are immature? :doh:

And again .. another one that does not argue because deep down you know that the things i have written are true and cannot be evaded.

 

But people these days just want to fight to claim that everything is an opinion and that one sentence is as good as another.

 

This reminds me of a speech i made many years ago with a person regarding video games.

 

This person was trying to excuse the developers for the flaws in the game and was saying, "Do you want this object to look better? the devs need more money, do you want that texture to be more defined? they needs more money"

 

So I replied: Then i buy the game at 70 bucks at day one and that's "more" money.

 

Moral of the story:

Thinking about your wallet makes you understand the difference between what is a product and what is not.

For example, the gaming PC that is assembled is not a product, a console instead is.

The same is true for DCS and some modules, are like the pc, they do some parts very well but are incomplete in their entirety.

 

It's a perennial beta, a work in progress, a continuous hype, a semi-product with free access that leads you to believe that by buying modules you will have more fun and so on.. but the reality is different, and in the end, after buying many modules (which are certainly not cheap, not to mention PCs and necessary peripherals) and having spent years of life, you realize that they do not run on a "product"

 

And even if this could be fine for me, I don't like that some "elements" instead of complaining and trying to straighten things out for the better, they adopt the philosophy for them indisputable (just see the comments) of the "buying to support", which is a total and masochistic b... you know, i can write it.

 

So, with all the respect to your opinions, try to think about it a bit and if it feels right to stick with your opinion then stay.


Edited by Expert

My two cents about the turn this community is taking

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=284141

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So, with all the respect to your opinions, try to think about it a bit and if it feels right to stick with your opinion then stay.

 

 

Thats what I'm gonna do. Gimme a sec... Done. I'll stick to my opinion. :harhar:

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Hi all,

 

While we encourage feedback postive and negative this is the second time this thread has been started, and we continue to get user reports about the tone and replies.

 

The first thread as mentioned by the OP broke our 1.2 rule, its a simple rule about being respectful to each other and should not be a problem for most.

 

Expert, please reply to the PM I sent you, as explained your first post here also breaks rule 1.3. I gave you some time to edit the post but you have not replied.

 

Please take the time to read the rules before posting, this is a product forum and we will delete any post that breaks our forum rules.

 

Thank you

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