Takeoff issues with rudder

[Low Blow]

I vaguely remember hearing something about upcoming changes/improvements to the slow-speed in-flight handling characteristics for the viper. Is there a reference for this somewhere or am I just going mad?

Edited August 18, 2020 by Low Blow

[antsh]

Maybe the line in red from the new features is related?

 

New features for DCS: F-16C Viper include but are not limited to;

 

Complete the Litening targeting pod

AGM-65D/G/H/K/L Maverick

Flight model and FLCS tuning

HARM Targeting System (HTS)

AGM-88C HARM POS and HAS modes

Complete Air-to-Air Radar: DTT SAM mode, bullseye, intercept steering cue, ACM Slew,

Velocity Search with Range,

Landing and takeoff handling tuning

Integration of the JHMCS with the HARM Targeting System (HTS), Link 16, AG Mode, and

AIFF

Sniper XR Targeting Pod

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

I don't know anything of what the actual numbers should be, but it FEELS as if the F16 has about 5x more drag once the speed goes below 400knts

 

Once you fall below 400 , the only way to pick up speed is flying in an exact straight line it seems .

The slightest pulling of the stick will make the speed plummet very rapidly even on full burners ?

 

Like i said it may be realistic, but it does not feel realistic to me for such a small and streamlined fighter ?

[littlewing]

Takeoff issues with rudder

 

Hi,

 

I looked in the forum and found that I'm not the only one,

 

I'm currently struggling taking off with the viper, as I'm taking off the aircraft veers to the side and every rudder input is too aggressive and I end up rolling the aircraft, nws off doesn't help either for me,

 

Is there a solution for that? Or any ED response that you know of regarding a fix?

 

The post that I found:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=252581

 

Thanks

[dundun92]

Can you post a video, showing your control inputs with the ingame window for it?

[SCPanda]

same issue here. NWS on the Viper is way too aggressive than other jets. Takeoff in a Viper, and switch to another jet, you will notice a huge difference in NWS

[jayst0r]

Yeah she is a bit tricky to say the least.

 

 

But lets hope that this quote from the roadmap includes NW steering improvement.

 

 

 

 

New features for DCS: F-16C Viper include but are not limited to;

 

Complete the Litening targeting pod

AGM-65D/G/H/K/L Maverick

Flight model and FLCS tuning

HARM Targeting System (HTS)

AGM-88C HARM POS and HAS modes

Complete Air-to-Air Radar: DTT SAM mode, bullseye, intercept steering cue, ACM Slew,

Velocity Search with Range,

Landing and takeoff handling tuning

Integration of the JHMCS with the HARM Targeting System (HTS), Link 16, AG Mode, and

AIFF

Sniper XR Targeting Pod

[Glide]

I agree, she's very hard to control on the runway. Rudder inputs can be deadly. Also asymmetric loads are dangerous. Always jettison and balance if you can. Practicing with a clean config helps.

 

 

 

I also noticed that targeting pod imbalance. Glad it wasn't just my sloppy skills.

[Presing]

When you start taking off try using brakes to keep plane in line(separate command for left and right wheel brake) and turn off nose wheel and then use rudder inputs. This will keep plane most of the time in the line.

 

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[SCPanda]

When you start taking off try using brakes to keep plane in line(separate command for left and right wheel brake) and turn off nose wheel and then use rudder inputs. This will keep plane most of the time in the line.

 

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

 

This might work, but this is not the correct way to takeoff in a Viper tho

[Presing]

He want to take off in DCS F-16, that is the way.

 

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Theodore42]

Turn off NWS at 60kts. That's maybe 1.5 seconds after your afterburner lights up.

NWS is for taxi; or if you're not pointed straight up the runway when you start the takeoff roll. You don't want to use it to guide a heavy, asymmetrical aircraft up the middle of a runway.

[Delareon]

Turn off NWS at 60kts. That's maybe 1.5 seconds after your afterburner lights up.

NWS is for taxi; or if you're not pointed straight up the runway when you start the takeoff roll. You don't want to use it to guide a heavy, asymmetrical aircraft up the middle of a runway.

 

try this in crosswind conditions. By the Time you disable the NWS you have to switch from barely touching the Rudder to full Rudder within a Split Second and even then you will drift because you are to slow for the ailerons to have an effect. By the Time they starting to be Effective you probably allready on the Edge of the Runway....

 

So currently its really a pain in the Ass and far from realistic but it will be fixed as it seems.

 

We only have workarounds until thats done from which differential brakes are a good one.

[coolneko]

Who cares.

The problem you are describing is "The faster the F-16 goes the faster the F-16 goes" which I think most fighter pilots can work with.

 

Only 1 engine and a lot of AoA means bad drag and acceleration. That's why an F-15 can land a tracking long range kill shot 80 degrees above the horizon with a 25 degree AoA at 140kts-- The F-15 has 2 engines to blast through that drag. The F-16 does not.

 

The f16 is less draggy than the f15, the number of engines has nothing to do with it. Their t/w is pretty similar.

 

The reason the 15 can make a low speed high off angle kill is because it doesn't have a flcs that limits your alpha at low speed so the jet doesn't tumble over itself.

[Theodore42]

I meant to post that here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=283454

 

WTF happened did they just combine 2 threads that I'm replying to?

Did a mod make a mistake trying to move 1 thread to a different forum?

 

I seem off topic but I'm just trying to post in the right thread:

Moved: Are there in-flight slow speed handling improvements planned?

Edited August 19, 2020 by Theodore42

[Theodore42]

The f16 is less draggy than the f15, the number of engines has nothing to do with it. Their t/w is pretty similar.

 

The reason the 15 can make a low speed high off angle kill is because it doesn't have a flcs that limits your alpha at low speed so the jet doesn't tumble over itself.

 

More engines means the drag an F-15 experiences at high AOA is going to much more manageable than an aircraft with only 1 engine in a high AOA situation.

 

That would be the reason for the difference in FLCS you mentioned earlier.

[coolneko]

More engines means the drag an F-15 experiences at high AOA is going to much more manageable than an aircraft with only 1 engine in a high AOA situation.

 

Induced drag is a component of the lift force: the greater the lift, the greater will be the induced drag. Lift must be equal to weight in level flight so induced drag will depend on the weight of the aircraft. Induced drag will be greater at higher aircraft weights.

 

Pulled right off google. High AOA means a lot of induced drag, which gets worse the heavier the aircraft is. The number of engines isn't going to matter relatively, because both aircraft have different weights. The 15 being heavier with two engines, and the 16 lighter with one.

 

That would be the reason for the difference in FLCS you mentioned earlier.

 

The reason the viper's flcs limits control surface deflection at 29 alpha is because of its relaxed stability, and it only having a single vertical tail. It's added in for safety reasons because passing the 30 aoa limit creates a high chance of departure.

 

In comparison, the F15 doesn't have a g limiting or aoa limiting flcs, so the pilot can yank the stick back until a stall, or a 120knt high angle guns kill.

[SCPanda]

He want to take off in DCS F-16, that is the way.

 

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

 

Yes. But it creates bad habits. After ED fixes the NWS (which has been taking forever), he has to change it back.

 

As the manual says, you should be able to use NWS under 70knots and sometimes it is necessary due to crosswinds.

[Glide]

I am experimenting with a little forward pressure on the stick to keep the nose on the ground and give the front end more stability. Give that a try.

[Delareon]

Yes. But it creates bad habits. After ED fixes the NWS (which has been taking forever), he has to change it back.

 

As the manual says, you should be able to use NWS under 70knots and sometimes it is necessary due to crosswinds.

 

good point, forming bad habbits is easy. Getting rid of them is a hard task.

I really hope ED will fix this soon, because the only way around this is to change the weather so that you dont experience much of a crosswind (or no crosswind at all).

 

To me flying in more difficult conditions is fun so this is a real bad bug here.

 

pulling stick forward to get more grip.... I do this sometimes on landing when i need to stop faster, never thought of doing this on take off. Its at least worth a try.

[Glide]

Also, most important, keep your eyes on the end of the runway, not the FPM.

[foxwxl]

same issue here. NWS on the Viper is way too aggressive than other jets. Takeoff in a Viper, and switch to another jet, you will notice a huge difference in NWS

 

Agreed, NWS is too sensitive compare to other planes.

[Maxthrust]

I have the same issue with a-10 which I blamed on the limited pedal travel of my rudder pedals.

 

Try using the "user curve" option with 5 unit steps (instead of regular 10) for the 30-70% range of the rudder axis and blend in with a smooth curve. Check the "slider" box.

 

This way you will still have linear control of the Rudder for most of the time, but it is now as half sensitive. Worked wonders with the a-10, highly recommended.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Maxthrust

[Theodore42]

Since this thread seems to have been combined and most people are talking about NWS:

NWS too sensitive. ED BAAAAAD. Fix, ED!

 

Continuing:

 

Induced drag is a component of the lift force: the greater the lift, the greater will be the induced drag. Lift must be equal to weight in level flight so induced drag will depend on the weight of the aircraft. Induced drag will be greater at higher aircraft weights.

 

Pulled right off google. High AOA means a lot of induced drag, which gets worse the heavier the aircraft is. The number of engines isn't going to matter relatively, because both aircraft have different weights. The 15 being heavier with two engines, and the 16 lighter with one.

 

The reason the viper's flcs limits control surface deflection at 29 alpha is because of its relaxed stability, and it only having a single vertical tail. It's added in for safety reasons because passing the 30 aoa limit creates a high chance of departure.

 

In comparison, the F15 doesn't have a g limiting or aoa limiting flcs, so the pilot can yank the stick back until a stall, or a 120knt high angle guns kill.

 

Of course 2 engines is better at dealing with induced drag. The doubling in engines doubles the thrust but doesn't double the drag (although it increases it). Also weight is a factor at all times regardless of speed. If the F-16 is light enough that it doesn't need a high AoA at high speeds to generate lift, then that is its advantage. But that wouldn't come into play at low (high AOA) speeds.

But that is why an F-16 can pull 8Gs at 450kts and then be going 500kts and then 550kts, all at 8Gs in about 5 seconds. Can't do that in an F-15. Because the F-16 has very low induced drag at higher speeds (partly due to its weight as you mentioned) so it is less affected by the amount of AoA required to generate lift and can accelerate faster.

 

But an F-15 can fly circles around an F-16 at low speeds, even adhering to a 28 degree limit and even considering the DCS F-15 is about 20 years older than the DCS F-16.

[Smoked]

Not sure if it has been mentioned.... put in a hefty amount of curve in the rudder axis and maybe a little dead zone... Even with a good crosswind I can keep it damn near centerline on my roll. Yes it is sensitive, but there are ways around that...

 

Also keep in mind each rudder (physical) is going to be different.

 

Just tame it with some axis curve and move on...