Question about AV8 handling

[lascaris]

I've recently started learning the AV8. My experience to date has been with FBW planes, i.e. F-18, F-16 and M-2000C and I'm struggling with AV8 handling. Here's some examples of my issues.

 

1) I can setup a clean plane, fly at roughly 350 knots and set AFC and Alt Hold. The plane will fly along for a few minutes and then begin banking and stay in a 20-30 degree turn. I can steer out of the turn and reset the AFC/Alt hold and it will fly along again for a few minutes until it happens again.

 

2) I really struggle with trimming the plane. I (sort of) understand that as a non-FBW it is sensitive to both altitude and velocity but dang it's hard getting it to even remotely level flight without Alt hold, which then has the issues mentioned in item 1.

 

Anyway, any thoughts as to what I'm doing wrong? I'm flying in VR with a T16000 thrustmaster. I'm pretty competent with other planes but this one just feels like if I'm not constantly watching what it's doing it is going to spin off into some uncontrolled regime.

 

Thanks for any advice!

[YoYo]

I use TH Warthog, no problem for me with handling (and I use a lot of manual trimm here, with weapon, without ect), you can set up bigger dead zone (for example 4% for each axis X and Y). Here you can find more info about how FBW works (why "The plane will fly along for a few minutes and then begin banking..."): https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=278739 .

Edited August 11, 2020 by YoYo

[QuiGon]

Anyway, any thoughts as to what I'm doing wrong? I'm flying in VR with a T16000 thrustmaster. I'm pretty competent with other planes but this one just feels like if I'm not constantly watching what it's doing it is going to spin off into some uncontrolled regime.

I'm afraid that's just the very nature of analogue planes. They need to be flown hands on with permanent retrimming. The Harrier is especially prone to wander off though.

[Fangsout]

So the sim does a fairly decent job of showing how much pilot workload there is in the Harrier but I will say it’s a little harder when you don’t have the aerodynamic forces putting pressure on the stick.

 

That said, AFC Alt Hold should hold level flight when it is engaged. I can’t recall how DCS models this but in the real jet trimming will disengage it. I usually paddle switch it off when I need to make a turn. Sometimes The jet you’re flying that day has AFC that sucks and will disengage on it’s own but I don’t think DCS models this.

 

The key to avoiding unrecognized spatial D is to have a constant scan and good mission cross check time. Don’t get sucked into the pod or any other instruments for too long without looking at the HUD.

 

 

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[lascaris]

Chock this one up to user error (aka stupidity.) It's been quite a while since I tried out a new plane and completely neglected to set up my stick axis. So basically I was using a straight linear response with no dead zone at all. After setting it up to my "standard" deadzone-3, Curve-15, everything is great. :) It's still takes more attention than a FBW plane, as you have all pointed out, but at least it feels controllable and Alt Hold works perfectly.

[QuiGon]

So basically I was using a straight linear response with no dead zone at all.

That's actually how I fly all the aircraft in DCS, as it is the most natural setting, isn't it?

[lascaris]

That's actually how I fly all the aircraft in DCS, as it is the most natural setting, isn't it?

 

I really don't know what a "real" response is. What I do know is that my stick must have a little twitch in it so with no dead zone Alt Hold would veer off after a little while and I would start circling. I also find the curve allows me (and at 60 I need all the help I can get) a bit more precision in handling.

[QuiGon]

I really don't know what a "real" response is. What I do know is that my stick must have a little twitch in it so with no dead zone Alt Hold would veer off after a little while and I would start circling. I also find the curve allows me (and at 60 I need all the help I can get) a bit more precision in handling.

Well, it depends on the stick of course and how precise it is :joystick:

[Fri13]

Well, it depends on the stick of course and how precise it is :joystick:

 

IIRC that Chuck guide mentions that you need to have a 1-2 points deadzone even with the best joysticks because the F/A-18C autopilot will get disabled if there is _any_ variation from the center.

[Fri13]

That's actually how I fly all the aircraft in DCS, as it is the most natural setting, isn't it?

 

Not really. As various aircrafts has different modes how to react to stick input.

 

Like example MiG-21 and MiG-29 has stick that requires more strength to handle the stick at various maneuvers. Like with MiG-21 you can't really move the stick when you fly at Mach 2 because you are physically trying to move control surfaces.

 

A MiG-29 and Su-27 has own special dampening modes for the various phases of flight. Like enable the landing gear and you get own dampening that allows you to throw your stick far greater range with smaller movement, just so you can make small nice smooth corrections.

 

You can even see some cockpit videos how much the pilot can move their sticks at take-off and landing and when doing some maneuvers, as when you have a joystick with linear input, you can't do that at all as even slightest movement is larger than they have.

[Orestd]

I just purchased the Harrier and I am having a tough time landing especially carrier landings. First controlling the harrier is a chore. Once I get near the carrier and have my nozzles in the 82 deg position the harries starts to sway like a hammock totally un controllable. It starts to rise no matter how much trimming I use and eventually drops into the sea. Controlling the speed is also a huge issue. I have watched all the videos on this subject and practiced continuously but can't get even close to landing the plane. It would be great if there was a step by step training video like the one for the f-18 that demonstrates all the sequences involved in the landing of the plane especially how to apply the trimming. If anyone has any suggestion or comments as to what I am doing wrong and why the plane starts to sway would be appreciated.

[Wakeshift]

Practice Vertical Landing on land first, before attempting it on the boat. The various training missions for this are detailed and useful.

Then it will be much easier to transfer that practice to the maneuvers to approach, hover, sideslip, and land on the Tarawa.

[webweaver40]

I just purchased the Harrier and I am having a tough time landing especially carrier landings. First controlling the harrier is a chore. Once I get near the carrier and have my nozzles in the 82 deg position the harries starts to sway like a hammock totally un controllable. It starts to rise no matter how much trimming I use and eventually drops into the sea. Controlling the speed is also a huge issue. I have watched all the videos on this subject and practiced continuously but can't get even close to landing the plane. It would be great if there was a step by step training video like the one for the f-18 that demonstrates all the sequences involved in the landing of the plane especially how to apply the trimming. If anyone has any suggestion or comments as to what I am doing wrong and why the plane starts to sway would be appreciated.

What is the weight of your aircraft?

 

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[YoYo]

I just purchased the Harrier and I am having a tough time landing especially carrier landings. First controlling the harrier is a chore. Once I get near the carrier and have my nozzles in the 82 deg position the harries starts to sway like a hammock totally un controllable. It starts to rise no matter how much trimming I use and eventually drops into the sea. Controlling the speed is also a huge issue. I have watched all the videos on this subject and practiced continuously but can't get even close to landing the plane. It would be great if there was a step by step training video like the one for the f-18 that demonstrates all the sequences involved in the landing of the plane especially how to apply the trimming. If anyone has any suggestion or comments as to what I am doing wrong and why the plane starts to sway would be appreciated.

 

You can check the weight on VRST: VSTOL-REST (Vertical & Short Takeoff & Landing) calculator page. Part 5 on Chuck's manual:

 

https://www.mudspike.com/wp-content/uploads/guides/DCS%20AV-8B%20Harrier%20Guide.pdf

 

The weight is very important for Harrier for vertical, short landing / take off. To add more power you can use water injection also (personally, I use rarely).

Edited August 13, 2020 by YoYo

[Rainmaker]

You can even see some cockpit videos how much the pilot can move their sticks at take-off and landing and when doing some maneuvers, as when you have a joystick with linear input, you can't do that at all as even slightest movement is larger than they have.

 

 

The two will never really match. RL controls are flown off 'force' more than they are travel of the stick. They have a sensor at the base of the stick that senses force inputs and flight controls are moved based on that. Lots of folks believe that is an 'F-16' thing because of the uniqueness of the controls, but in reality many aircraft fly that way. You could freeze the stick arm and still fly through force only with some as an example.