R-27ET right after R-27ER

[sylkhan]

The 36T passive infrared homing heat allows homing of missile to aircrafts, cruise missiles, Drones,...

Its has means to received data from radar or optical locator :)

 

Ok, if i launch a R-27ER and right after i launch a R-27ET, the ET should lock on the big heat emission of ER, correct ?

 

So it will follow the path of r-27ER, till it detect a bigger heat source (aircraft).

 

In that way we can launch missiles by pair and optimize PK.

 

Why this doesn't work in the game, the ET does not lock on the ER heat emission ?

[AeriaGloria]

It can of you launch without lock, but missiles have IR even when burned so it may not lose lock.

And re acquire the target.

 

From what I’ve heard it was Soviet practice to fire IR first for the very reason that it wouldn’t lock onto the radar guided missile shot after it, in comparison to the method you describe

[sylkhan]

It can of you launch without lock, but missiles have IR even when burned so it may not lose lock.

And re acquire the target.

Sure, but logically it should go for the heatest source.

 

 

...

From what I’ve heard it was Soviet practice to fire IR first for the very reason that it wouldn’t lock onto the radar guided missile shot after it, in comparison to the method you describe

 

If it's true, it's sad because this method reduce drastically the launch range.

But probably they don't want the bad guys (blue) know about their correct method :)

False information to confuse ennemies.

Edited August 8, 2020 by sylkhan

[Fri13]

Sure, but logically it should go for the heatest source.

 

Not all and always. The missiles as well track target vectors and so on if suddenly two sources appear and other separates, missile can ignore the separating source.

 

And the Su-27SK manual says that T variant shouldn't be launched after a another missile for 6-8 seconds just so that the seeker doesn't get confused with the previously launched missile.

 

 

If it's true, it's sad because this method reduce drastically the launch range.

But probably they don't want the bad guys (blue) know about their correct method :)

False information to confuse ennemies.

 

If you launch R first, then you need to wait 6-8 seconds before launching T. But when you launch T, you would trash a R guidance.

If you launch T first, you need to wait longer to get a lock, and you are dead before you do.

 

So something doesn't match. Like it is said that first radar and the IR. As well said opposite.

[sylkhan]

..If you launch R first, then you need to wait 6-8 seconds before launching T.

 

Yes, it's to avoid the T to be confused by the heat emission of the R (iF the T is lock on the target), and it could confirm that the T can lock on the R.

 

But in my concept, i want the T to lock on the R to take the path/guidance of R to have 2 missiles that go to the target.

It need to be launch right after the R (without lock on the target)

 

The goal is to give more range to the T (slightly less than the R)and to have a better PK

 

But when you launch T, you would trash a R guidance.

Why, since the T is not radio correct

Edited August 8, 2020 by sylkhan

[GGTharos]

So you want the T to follow the R, so that when the R is decoyed by chaff the T will also be decoyed by the chaff? :D

 

As for the answer to your question about the T trashing R guidance ... because that's the way the system works. In order to lock the T onto the missile instead of the actual target, you'd have to drop lock.

If you go to the Fi0, you drop lock.

If you were to launch right after the R so that the R's heat signature ovewhelms the seeker and it follows the R, maybe it would work, maybe not - but either way you're up for the scenario in the first line of my post, and you're just done the most useless things ever: You've turned two types of seeker with different methods of being decoyed into one. But this won't work in DCS anyway.

 

 

In DCS the missile is locked onto whatever your systems are locked onto when it spawns. Ie. if the systems say 'hey we're tracking object id #3748', that's what the missile will go after when launched/spawned.

Edited August 8, 2020 by GGTharos

[sylkhan]

So you want the T to follow the R, so that when the R is decoyed by chaff the T will also be decoyed by the chaff? :D.

 

 

?? Certainly not, if the R go to chaff, that means the T is in range for his head to track the aircraft (heatest emitting source), but chances are high that it would have gone to the target way before the R go for chaff.

 

It's easy to program priority filters for infrared homing head

Since the 2 R27 have the exact same motors, it should work.

 

You've turned two types of seeker with different methods of being decoyed into one.

 

No, like i explain previously.

On the contrary the bad guy will only know about SARH missile, willl decoy chaff(like you said:)) and.....surprise :D

Edited August 8, 2020 by sylkhan

[captain_dalan]

?? Certainly not, if the R go to chaff, that means the T is in range for his head to track the aircraft (heatest emitting source), but chances are high that it would have gone to the target way before the R go for chaff.

 

It's easy to program priority filters for infrared homing head

 

 

Actually, it most likely will get spoofed. Once it grabs a hold of the booster it will stay there. And if the booster of the spoofed R burns out and the seeker loses lock of the missile for some reason (as hot it will be by now), i doubt it is sure to pickup the bandit. It might as pickup a friendly. Or nothing.

[GGTharos]

No, like i explain previously.

On the contrary the bad guy will only know about SARH missile, willl decoy chaff(like you said:)) and.....surprise :D

 

The T is locked onto the R, because that's how you launched it. If the R is decoyed by chaff, so is the T because the T is locked onto the R, not the target aircraft.

 

So surprise to you apparently. :megalol:

[sylkhan]

... And if the booster of the spoofed R burns out and the seeker loses lock of the missile for some reason (as hot it will be by now), i doubt it is sure to pickup the bandit.

 

It will not loose lock, it will keep the lock until it see the bandit (hotest emititing source)

 

 

It might as pickup a friendly. Or nothing.

 

Sure.

[sylkhan]

The T is locked onto the R, because that's how you launched it. If the R is decoyed by chaff, so is the T because the T is locked onto the R, not the target aircraft.

 

Euh no, if you read carefully my answer, you will understand why.

 

I hope you know that an IR missile can switch for another target depending of the emitting source (it's like flares works for exemple :))

Edited August 8, 2020 by sylkhan

[pepin1234]

First and very import, you should reach the same altitude of the bandit. Then keep a straight line flight head on and launch the R-27ET without alter your flight path (the goal is put yourself behind the 27ET contrail) When the Aim-120 get active on your RWR hold a little bit and launch another R-27ET and run away leaving the combat. Try not use any Radar guided missiles in this tactic...

Edited August 8, 2020 by pepin1234

[GGTharos]

Euh no, if you read carefully my answer, you will understand why.

 

I hope you know that an IR missile can switch for another target depending of the emitting source (it's like flares works for exemple :))

 

How does it know to switch? Why would it switch to the target YOU want? Can it read your mind?

What's all that ECCM doing there that's supposed to try and ignore background noise and things other than what it's locked on to ... like flares? :megalol:

 

It's you who doesn't know or understand. Once the missile is locked, it doesn't want to switch - how else would it be a reliable weapon? Why carry it at all? All your bandit would have to do is make it look down and it would switch to the first reflection of the sun from a roof or pond of water that it would see. Or a cloud.

Edited August 8, 2020 by GGTharos

[sylkhan]

How does it know to switch? Why would it switch to the target YOU want? Can it read your mind?

What's all that ECCM doing there that's supposed to try and ignore background noise and things other than what it's locked on to ... like flares? :megalol:

 

It's you who doesn't know or understand. Once the missile is locked, it doesn't want to switch - how else would it be a reliable weapon? Why carry it at all? All your bandit would have to do is make it look down and it would switch to the first reflection of the sun from a roof or pond of water that it would see. Or a cloud.

 

OK i will try to simplify for you.

 

Why an IR missile switch to Flares ? because of their thermal signature being stronger.

 

Now imagine the T following the R and at some point it see a stronger thermal signature (the bandit).

 

What it is supose to do ?

Edited August 8, 2020 by sylkhan

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

OK i will try to simplify for you.

 

Why an IR missile switch to Flares ? because of their thermal signature being stronger.

 

Now imagine the T following the R and at some point it see a stronger thermal signature (the bandit).

 

What it is supose to do ?

While this under some extremely rare circumstances might've been the case with 1st gen seekers like on the AIM-9B (even then it might just get close enough and proxy fuse the R-27ER so its a mute point)

 

 

we are talking about something like a concentric annular ring reticle, which will continue to estimate the movement of the original target in its FOV to predict where it will be, which is how its able to at times tell apart Flares from the target when the flares obstruct the target, the bandit you want to kill would simple be seen and ignored as they never over lap, and if they did chances are it would stick with the original R-27ER you had locked more likely than not

[Fri13]

It will not loose lock, it will keep the lock until it see the bandit (hotest emititing source)

 

Doesn't work that way. The IR seeker doesn't give up a lock because "I see a hotter target". It needs to have a given profile how the heat sources are joined and separated.

 

That is the problem that you can't just release chaff 30 degree off-boresight and get missile to go there because "it is hotter".

 

And how can it know what is an important target when it is chasing a assumed target, that is using a proportional navigation and so on likely heading to completely different direction than the enemy fighter?

 

The IR seeker can not be locked on a SARH missile and then search other targets somewhere else.

And the other problem is that when you launch SARH first and then IR later, likely the IR will intercept the SARH on the way.

[AeriaGloria]

Not to mention flares don’t have any heat signature in DCS and are just dice rolls. If flares did work the way they do in real, what you say Sylkhan may be technically possible but as others have said it’s tacticallya not smart.

I mean if the IR seeker is pointed at the missile if there’s any lead it won’t be pointing at the target directly. The R-27ET doesn’t see everything in front of it, it only sees about about a 3 degree cone, and even if everything worked it would have to be aligned, and if that R-27ER hits and your R-27ET follows congratulations you just used two missiles on one target

 

Not to mention how draggy the T nose is, once the R hits the T could still be far away, go dumb and not hit anything

Edited August 8, 2020 by AeriaGloria

[sylkhan]

Ok, it can't work, it was a cool idea...for the fun :)

[GGTharos]

OK i will try to simplify for you.

 

Why an IR missile switch to Flares ? because of their thermal signature being stronger.

 

Now imagine the T following the R and at some point it see a stronger thermal signature (the bandit).

 

What it is supose to do ?

 

 

It's actually supposed to stay with the original target. Flares are supposed to help decoy it but they're not a guarantee, a single flare is certainly not expected to be effective, or any single other distraction.

You're also assuming that the target aircraft is more intense in IR ... that's also not a guarantee :)

[sylkhan]

It's actually supposed to stay with the original target. Flares are supposed to help decoy it but they're not a guarantee, a single flare is certainly not expected to be effective, or any single other distraction.

You're also assuming that the target aircraft is more intense in IR ... that's also not a guarantee :)

 

I just see one of your post in the russian forum :

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4445625&postcount=9093

 

I like your sentence "and the missile should be perfectly capable of locking into a more powerful signal, like flares in the overall FOV."

 

Funny, isn't it :)

[RED]

I just see one of your post in the russian forum :

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4445625&postcount=9093

 

I like your sentence "and the missile should be perfectly capable of locking into a more powerful signal, like flares in the overall FOV."

 

Funny, isn't it :)

 

He is talking what could be modeled before the launch. So it is about acquiring the correct target and not switching between them after launch.

 

I see you mean this seriously. Try to keep things in order and do not throw everything together.

 

And also keep in mind that the sensors in the missile and the other different systems don't do magic.

[sylkhan]

He is talking what could be modeled before the launch. So it is about acquiring the correct target and not switching between them after launch..

 

Before or after launch is not the point.

The point is :

Is an IR missile able to switch to Flares or stronger signal (before or after launch)?

Answer is : YES

Then ,after launch it can switch to anorther target with "stronger signal or due to it's prioritization of target (IR head seeker programmed with database)

 

I see you mean this seriously..

Not really, it was just "would it be possible ?"

And most importandly, why in DCS my "ET" can't lock my "ER", i am sure in reality, it can.

 

And also keep in mind that the sensors in the missile and the other different systems don't do magic.

 

It's not magic, it's logic and head seaker programming..

Edited August 9, 2020 by sylkhan

[AeriaGloria]

Sylkhan nobody is saying ET won’t lock ER, your ET can lock an ER in game, it’s just not useful. As GG said, you would have to break radar lock and trash your ER just to target it with R-27ET/EOS!!!

 

It’s an analog seeker, there is no data base, it doesn’t know how to switch, it’s an analog seeker that can literally only see one thing at a time, it sees its entire FOV as one thing, it literally can’t distingnuish between objects at all. It sees everything as one signature, and it’s completely dumb. In reality you are setting yourself up for failure, and in game you are setting yourself up for failure. Is it possible to lock ER with ET? Yes in game and real life, that’s why the doctrine is to fire ET first, as we have been trying to say

 

If you try it in game, I’m sure you will see how useless it is, and how much better it is to fire ET first. It will never switch targets and follow ER perrfectly and switch to target eventually, it’s not a smart seeker, it will stay locked on to the source it was locked into initially. As GG Tharos says, you have absolutely no guarantee that it will perfectly transition from being locked on ER to Target, it will never happen perfectly just because planes are hot, unless you’re pointed at 180 aspect that seeker isn’t even lookingin the same direction as the target, and that’s assuming you have the same altitude!!!!

 

It’s a complete waste of a missile is what I am saying, just fire with a lock on the target you want to kill like it’s designed to do

 

If you really want to try it no one can stop you, go ahead, but you will be wasting ETs, and you will only end up fighting the systems when they could help you.

 

There is no magic solution to take a R-27ET launch at the same range as ER, it will always be limited by the seeker, there is no way around that. The occasional mad dog launch works if you’re precise, but that’s when it’s not locked onto anything, locking onto a heat source of a plane in front of it is pretty easy if it’s not already locked on a hot R-27ER

 

Limitations of this seeker is exactly why modern missiles use FPA seekers

Edited August 9, 2020 by AeriaGloria

[sylkhan]

..There is no magic solution to take a R-27ET launch at the same range as ER, it will always be limited by the seeker,..

It's sad, you kill my dream ..:)

[pepin1234]

It's sad, you kill my dream ..:)

 

I told you already what you can do. Work with LA override ON and try what I told you before. Try it always as first step in your combat. I recommend use the Su-33 to do that then you have enough R-27 to use.