Can You Fly AND Fight in the Hind Completely From The Front Seat?

[Bearfoot]

I know multicrew will (eventually) be included, and presumably/hopefully there will be some Jester-like AI for the weapon controller in the front seat when there is only one human player in the back.

 

In the Wags video recently released, he notes that you can also fly in the front seat which is where you operate the antitank weapons from.

 

Would that mean that you can (comfortably/completely) fly the Hind as well as operate all the weapons from the front seat? So no need for AI or a second human?

[Grodlund]

Should be. IRL the flight controls are duplicated (with the ability to be folded away) in the gunners seat.

I am guessing, for most people who fly without a human this will be the primary way of controling the Mi-24. Just my guess

[Lucas_From_Hell]

The gunner has only the bare essentials in terms of controls, and does not have access to any of the mission equipment located in the pilot's seat, including the navigation, rockets and cannon triggers as far as I know. Per old Belsimtek newsletters, there will be a gunner AI to handle spotting and targeting.

[Gierasimov]

Correct

 

The gunner has only the bare essentials in terms of controls, and does not have access to any of the mission equipment located in the pilot's seat, including the navigation, rockets and cannon triggers as far as I know. Per old Belsimtek newsletters, there will be a gunner AI to handle spotting and targeting.

 

I have seen that too, that there will be limited capability AI, that's fine. I hope it will be 100% usable in single player without switching cockpits back and forth. If I can fire from pilot's seat and guy at the front does the missile shots I am fine.

[pepin1234]

Depend if the Mi-24 has autopilot and if you can activate it from the front seat.

[QuiGon]

Depend if the Mi-24 has autopilot and if you can activate it from the front seat.

The AI pilot can do basic flying (fly x kts in direction y) when you're in the front seat.

[Dr_Arrow]

In the real Mi-24 you can fly from the front seat, but it is meant only for emergencies so in case the pilot gets seriously wounded or killed WSO can fly and land the thing. It is really not meant for fighting, or maneuvering.

[Fri13]

The AI pilot can do basic flying (fly x kts in direction y) when you're in the front seat.

 

Doesn't help much as you should be able to perform 60 degree turns while guiding the missile, so you don't fly straight at the enemy fire.

 

The gunner has not so much tasks there than to launch missiles, and likely designate the target for the pilot too so it becomes marked one in his HUD. There is nice video about that.

 

 

It is possible that designated/locked target by the gunner is just for the missile guidance (similar manner as Su-25A can lock own target) and pilot doesn't see it.

 

But if the pilot can see that in his HUD, it would make gunner position more interesting for finding and designating targets for gun/rocket strafes.

So operation to jump to front seat, set autopilot fly straight at speed, search target, designate it and jump back to pilot seat to engage it.

[Volator]

In the real Mi-24 you can fly from the front seat, but it is meant only for emergencies so in case the pilot gets seriously wounded or killed WSO can fly and land the thing. It is really not meant for fighting, or maneuvering.

 

This is backed up by this website:

 

https://www.nva-flieger.de/

 

I remember it was stated there somewhere that new pilots were put into the front cockpit in the East German armed forces (Hinds were allocated to the air force first, then to the army IIRC). There they had to show their piloting skills and pass some checkrides, which was a PITA due to the rather rudimentary controls in the front cockpit.

[QuiGon]

Doesn't help much as you should be able to perform 60 degree turns while guiding the missile, so you don't fly straight at the enemy fire.

It will be a bit more than just flying straight: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3341529#post3341529

[rkk01]

Is this the reason we get a later version Hind with the fixed forward firing cannons?

 

My first awareness of the Hind was from Cold War fiction, high Afghan valleys and the trainable turret gun...

[QuiGon]

Is this the reason we get a later version Hind with the fixed forward firing cannons?

I hope not.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

The reason we're getting the 30mm variant is because Belsimtek developers talked extensively to many Mi-24 pilots and gunners when doing research for the module, and were told more or less unanimously that the machine gun is useless in combat and everyone prefers the 30mm cannon as it can actually destroy things.

[S.E.Bulba]

Google Translate

 

… Would that mean that you can (comfortably/completely) fly the Hind as well as operate all the weapons from the front seat? So no need for AI or a second human?

Yes, the operator in the Mi-24P front cockpit can fire from all available unguided weapons (this function is not available to the Mi-24V operator). The attachment photo shows a switch (right) with which the operator in the Mi-24P front cockpit transfers control of the unguided weapons to himself.

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In this case, the operator in the Mi-24P front cockpit will have to independently calculate the ballistic corrections for firing unguided weapons using the PKI reflector sight.

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[ATTACH]207432[/ATTACH]

When firing from the pilot's seat in the rear cockpit, ballistic corrections calculated by the ATsVU analog-digital computing device will be automatically entered into the pilot's ASP-17V electro-optical sight (approximately similar to the Su-25 gunsight).

 

The reason we're getting the 30mm variant is because Belsimtek developers talked extensively to many Mi-24 pilots and gunners when doing research for the module, and were told more or less unanimously that the machine gun is useless in combat and everyone prefers the 30mm cannon as it can actually destroy things.

Do not forget that the Belsimtek chief, Alexander 'PilotMi8' Podvoyskiy, is himself a former helicopter pilot of the army aviation. :smilewink:

 

Original in Russian

… Would that mean that you can (comfortably/completely) fly the Hind as well as operate all the weapons from the front seat? So no need for AI or a second human?

Да, оператор в передней кабине Ми-24П может стрелять из всего доступного неуправляемого вооружения (такая функция недоступна оператору Ми-24В). На фото во вложении показан переключатель (справа), с помощью которого оператор в передней кабине Ми-24П переводит управление неуправляемым вооружением на себя.

 

В этом случае оператору в передней кабине Ми-24П придётся самостоятельно вычислять баллистические поправки для стрельбы неуправляемым оружием, используя коллиматорный прицел ПКИ.

 

При стрельбе с места пилота в задней кабине, вычисляемые аналогово-цифровым вычислительным устройством АЦВУ баллистические поправки будут автоматически вводиться в авиационный стрелковый прицел АСП-17В пилота (примерно аналогичный авиационному стрелковому прицелу Су-25).

 

The reason we're getting the 30mm variant is because Belsimtek developers talked extensively to many Mi-24 pilots and gunners when doing research for the module, and were told more or less unanimously that the machine gun is useless in combat and everyone prefers the 30mm cannon as it can actually destroy things.

Не сто́ит забывать, что руководитель Belsimtek Александр 'PilotMi8' Подвойский сам является бывшим пилотом-вертолётчиком армейской авиации. :smilewink:

 

[OnlyforDCS]

Yes, the operator in the Mi-24P front cockpit can fire from all available unguided weapons (this function is not available to the Mi-24V operator). The attachment photo shows a switch (right) with which the operator in the Mi-24P front cockpit transfers control of the unguided weapons to himself.

 

In this case, the operator in the Mi-24P front cockpit will have to independently calculate the ballistic corrections for firing unguided weapons using the PKI reflector sight.

 

When firing from the pilot's seat in the rear cockpit, ballistic corrections calculated by the ATsVU analog-digital computing device will be automatically entered into the pilot's ASP-17V electro-optical sight (approximately similar to the Su-25 gunsight).

 

 

Do not forget that the Belsimtek chief, Alexander 'PilotMi8' Podvoyskiy, is himself a former helicopter pilot of the army aviation. :smilewink:

 

Original in Russian

 

Да, оператор в передней кабине Ми-24П может стрелять из всего доступного неуправляемого вооружения (такая функция недоступна оператору Ми-24В). На фото во вложении показан переключатель (справа), с помощью которого оператор в передней кабине Ми-24П переводит управление неуправляемым вооружением на себя.

 

В этом случае оператору в передней кабине Ми-24П придётся самостоятельно вычислять баллистические поправки для стрельбы неуправляемым оружием, используя коллиматорный прицел ПКИ.

 

При стрельбе с места пилота в задней кабине, вычисляемые аналогово-цифровым вычислительным устройством АЦВУ баллистические поправки будут автоматически вводиться в авиационный стрелковый прицел АСП-17В пилота (примерно аналогичный авиационному стрелковому прицелу Су-25).

 

 

Не сто́ит забывать, что руководитель Belsimtek Александр 'PilotMi8' Подвойский сам является бывшим пилотом-вертолётчиком армейской авиации. :smilewink:

 

As I see it the issue is mainly with guided weapons, the pilot should be able to fly the Helo from the back seat while the AI handles targeting with those weapons.

[QuiGon]

As I see it the issue is mainly with guided weapons, the pilot should be able to fly the Helo from the back seat while the AI handles targeting with those weapons.

And that is planned as I said before:

Also we are working on AI crew targets detection logic. It will not be just all-seeing AI copilot/gunner, as you can see on pics below, AI behaviour will not be simplistic and during spotting its being modelled to mimic real pilots training logic for spotting targets. Things like distance, angle and illumination will be taken into account among many others.

[S.E.Bulba]

Google Translate

 

As I see it the issue is mainly with guided weapons, the pilot should be able to fly the Helo from the back seat while the AI handles targeting with those weapons.

The Mi-24 pilot can turn on the pairing mode of the ASP-17V gunsight with the operator's Shturm-V ATGW guidance unit. In this case, the aiming mark on the ASP-17V will show where the Shturm-V ATGW guidance unit is directed, and, accordingly, where the pilot should turn the helicopter so that the operator can fire.

 

Original in Russian

 

Пилот Ми-24 может включить режим сопряжения прицела АСП-17В с прибором наведения ПТРК «Штурм-В» оператора. В таком случае, прицельная марка на АСП-17В будет показывать куда направлен прибор наведения ПТРК «Штурм-В», и соответственно куда пилоту следует довернуть вертолёт, чтобы оператор мог выстрелить.

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by S.E.Bulba
update.

[sublime]

It will be a bit more than just flying straight: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3341529#post3341529

 

RIP F4 =(

[Fri13]

I remember it was stated there somewhere that new pilots were put into the front cockpit in the East German armed forces (Hinds were allocated to the air force first, then to the army IIRC). There they had to show their piloting skills and pass some checkrides, which was a PITA due to the rather rudimentary controls in the front cockpit.

 

In Mi-24 the younger pilot was at the front, but I remember that in the western attack helicopters the senior was as well the pilot. But then in the fighters you had the commanding officer at the backseat where pilot were the new ones.

 

It is more like that in helicopter the pilot has the final word and is responsible for all tactics and engagements and pilot just engage targets and confirm navigation (pilot still responsible for navigation), where in multi-role fighter the WSO/RIO is responsible for tactics and engagements and pilot just flies in BVR.

[Quadg]

In Mi-24 the younger pilot was at the front, but I remember that in the western attack helicopters the senior was as well the pilot. But then in the fighters you had the commanding officer at the backseat where pilot were the new ones.

 

It is more like that in helicopter the pilot has the final word and is responsible for all tactics and engagements and pilot just engage targets and confirm navigation (pilot still responsible for navigation), where in multi-role fighter the WSO/RIO is responsible for tactics and engagements and pilot just flies in BVR.

 

Helicopter pilots in the US Army are still only warrant officers. senior NCO.

so pilots can never rise to command an apache regiment.

this means that the officers of the regiment sit in the front seat.

which technically means the front seat commands the aircraft.

 

but every good officer knows when its time to defer to their more experienced senior NCO...

so the officers show the pilots a lot of respect. and defer to them in all matters of flying.

its a weird situation.

[Rick50]

Helicopter pilots in the US Army are still only warrant officers. senior NCO.

so pilots can never rise to command an apache regiment.

this means that the officers of the regiment sit in the front seat.

which technically means the front seat commands the aircraft.

 

but every good officer knows when its time to defer to their more experienced senior NCO...

so the officers show the pilots a lot of respect. and defer to them in all matters of flying.

its a weird situation.

 

 

Well, let's face it, senior NCO's make the difference between an ok army, and a great one :thumbup: They are there to keep the lower ranks in good shape and keep the officers from making bad mistakes, through good advice based on extensive experience! An awful lot of responsibility is placed on their shoulders, but I wouldn't want it any other way.

[Bearfoot]

Both of you folks need to watch this video to get the correct information:

 

 

In Mi-24 the younger pilot was at the front, but I remember that in the western attack helicopters the senior was as well the pilot. But then in the fighters you had the commanding officer at the backseat where pilot were the new ones.

 

It is more like that in helicopter the pilot has the final word and is responsible for all tactics and engagements and pilot just engage targets and confirm navigation (pilot still responsible for navigation), where in multi-role fighter the WSO/RIO is responsible for tactics and engagements and pilot just flies in BVR.

 

Helicopter pilots in the US Army are still only warrant officers. senior NCO.

so pilots can never rise to command an apache regiment.

this means that the officers of the regiment sit in the front seat.

which technically means the front seat commands the aircraft.

 

but every good officer knows when its time to defer to their more experienced senior NCO...

so the officers show the pilots a lot of respect. and defer to them in all matters of flying.

its a weird situation.

[QuiGon]

Whoa, quite a lot of wrong information in the past few posts about crew assignment, but Bearfoot beat me in correcting it. You guys should really watch the video Bearfoot linkes as it explains pretty well how it actually works.

 

But I want to address some points directly:

but I remember that in the western attack helicopters the senior was as well the pilot.

Indeed, at least in the US forces there is no difference in assignment between front and rear pilot. Either one of the two can be senior.

 

But then in the fighters you had the commanding officer at the backseat where pilot were the new ones.

Here you're wrong. Even in jets either one of them can be senior.

 

Helicopter pilots in the US Army are still only warrant officers. senior NCO.

Warrant officers are not NCOs! They rank above NCOs!

 

so pilots can never rise to command an apache regiment.

this means that the officers of the regiment sit in the front seat.

which technically means the front seat commands the aircraft.

Now that's totally wrong. It is true that warrant officers can indeed not command units like squadrons, regiments and so on, but commisioned officers who can command units are fully qualified pilots too and fly in both seats!

[Quadg]

.

 

Warrant officers are not NCOs! They rank above NCOs!

 

 

warrant officers do not hold a commission, so yes they are non commissioned officers or NCO..

they hold a warrant which makes them senior to people without a warrant.

which is every other NCO.

so they are senior NCO. as high as you can go without a commission.

they have their own mess and everything :)

 

and yes i didn't explain my last comment very well. i was in fact getting at the two rank system. where you have military rank and helicopter pilot rank.

 

where you can have a senior officer who is a junior pilot paired with a junior officer who is a senior pilot.

so the warrant has to call the officer sir while giving them orders.

and usually puts them in the front seat.

why I said it was a weird situation.

[Stratos]

And will the AI be able to engage the enemy with missiles all alone?