Cyclic ops

[Swift.]

Seems like a pretty fundamental function in the mission editor is missing: Cyclic Ops

 

Have a waypoint option similar to the orbit function, where you could set desired WOD (or GS if that's easier), along with a cycle length in time. Then the carrier will automatically steam upwind and back to the start point as required to meet the parameters set.

 

As a bonus this could tie into the carrier ATC for case2/3 to provide pushtimes correlating to the start of the recovery.

[Nealius]

+1

 

Right now you can only simulate cyclic ops by spawning/despawning AI with triggers, but that messes with the comms. If there's no traffic the Airboss will give you Signal Charlie, then as you're coming around for initial suddenly the deck is foul with AI. So then you have to time things yourself and do the comms check-ins totally out of order.

[RaiderOne]

+1000 !

[upyr1]

I want this as well, It would be nice to have a cap or hawkeye patroling x miles infront of the ship

[Jagohu]

I'm working on a cyclic-ops simulation at a certain level for a single player F/A-18 campaign in the PG. So far I haven't considered implementing course changes for the carrier, but I'll keep it in mind and I might implement it if I'll have the time - although it is tricky when it comes to "smaller" operating areas like the PG and I'm afraid I don't know enough about the real operations in this respect to be able to realistically model it.

It will however reflect different layouts on the flight deck with static and dynamic objects around as they're supposed to (side numbers, liveries are checked not to be duplicated, etc.). Players will see what they're "supposed" to see on the deck and around the carrier when departing/recovering - of course everything is limited by many factors in DCS (spawn locations, taxi routes to CATs/parkings) - but still it should be quite nice in my opinion.

"Dynamic" traffic comes with individually generated flight plans and loadouts, therefore every mission start should differ with respect to AI traffic/static objects around.
 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Jagohu

[Jackjack171]

5 hours ago, Jagohu said:

I'm working on a cyclic-ops simulation at a certain level for a single player F/A-18 campaign in the PG. So far I haven't considered implementing course changes for the carrier, but I'll keep it in mind and I might implement it if I'll have the time - although it is tricky when it comes to "smaller" operating areas like the PG and I'm afraid I don't know enough about the real operations in this respect to be able to realistically model it.

It will however reflect different layouts on the flight deck with static and dynamic objects around as they're supposed to (side numbers, liveries are checked not to be duplicated, etc.). Players will see what they're "supposed" to see on the deck and around the carrier when departing/recovering - of course everything is limited by many factors in DCS (spawn locations, taxi routes to CATs/parkings) - but still it should be quite nice in my opinion.

"Dynamic" traffic comes with individually generated flight plans and loadouts, therefore every mission start should differ with respect to AI traffic/static objects around.
 

 

Cool. Just an observation, your Crash crane is in the wrong space. It should be on the Island side of the SPN-46 tower and your E-2 where the crane is. That's your AFT Hummer hole.

[Jagohu]

@Jackjack171Thanks a lot, fixed! If you have any other observations, please do let me know, I'm trying to make it as realistic as possible.
 

[Cacetudo]

+1 on this request, and I like the way your single-player mission is looking too.

 

I've been trying to do something similar but haven't gotten quite that far yet, other than creating a bunch of custom static templates for the SC (and some other ships) as well as the necessary Lua scripting/mission triggers to move things around.

[Jackjack171]

7 hours ago, Jagohu said:

@Jackjack171Thanks a lot, fixed! If you have any other observations, please do let me know, I'm trying to make it as realistic as possible.
 

Looks great bro! You were already there. I hope you can solve the cyclic ops problem. IRL, the ship has a PIM (Position of intended movement) and while us lowly hard charging flight deck warriors don't know where that is (and don't really care), we can only assume. The idea behind PIM is that it's a way to track where the ship should be at any given time. The longer a ship stays turned into the wind, the longer it is off PIM. The launch/recovery cycles are done with the ship into the wind. After recovery complete, the ship would turn back to PIM, sometimes! Wash, rinse, repeat! Your cycles just depends on how many A/C you want to shoot and catch each time.  I'm Looking forward to your campaign. Glad I could help! 

[Jagohu]

@Jackjack171 Okay, if you don't mind I'll have a question then - is the ship always fully steaming into the wind during launch/recovery (which in my understanding ideally takes up to ~15+~30 minutes/cycle) or is there an "allowed crosswind component" for each? What happens if there isn't much space to do this (ie. Persian Gulf)?
Again, thanks a lot for the insights, these are the things which are not in the publicly available literature and not straightforward enough for an outsider to know Much appreciated!
 

[Jackjack171]

5 minutes ago, Jagohu said:

@Jackjack171 Okay, if you don't mind I'll have a question then - is the ship always fully steaming into the wind during launch/recovery (which in my understanding ideally takes up to ~15+~30 minutes/cycle) or is there an "allowed crosswind component" for each? What happens if there isn't much space to do this (ie. Persian Gulf)?
Again, thanks a lot for the insights, these are the things which are not in the publicly available literature and not straightforward enough for an outsider to know Much appreciated!
 

 The ship will make her own wind if there is not enough available. I know that there is a cross wind component but I do not have that data and I was not a Shooter. And different aircraft have different crosswind limitations. And from different catapults if I remember correctly. From my perspective, in the Gulf our cycles depended on aircraft launched. We were always turning. The Gulf felt bigger than what it is, from a flight deck personnel perspective. I'm sure in DCS, you have enough space to operate. You would have to do the math on it. What waypoints for your CVBG. Waypoints for your SC and where the wind is for launch and recovery while worrying about running into the ground or other units. 

I hope that helps. Feel free to ask anything!

[Jagohu]

@Jackjack171: it does help, thanks, but it doesn't make it easier for me as I've already modelled the hundreds of oil and gas platforms in the Gulf according to naval charts.  They are considered as floating static objects and as such are not "avoided" automatically by DCS ships - they just sail through them which looks kinda stupid... And to calculate a trajectory to avoid them at all times - well it's gonna be no easy task as they're dynamically spawned/(and hopefully will be de-spawned once ED fixes it and it becomes possible) depending on the player's position to keep memory and CPU footprints to a minimum(picture is still from before doing all the CVW-8 skins)...
I'll keep it in mind anyhow for an improvement - from the pilots' point of view I hope it doesn't happen too often that they see the ship turn - do they? I mean by the time they get on the deck (in DCS anyway, where it's only minutes to start up an airplane as opposed to IRL) to launch or come back for recovery the ship should already be sailing into the wind, doesn't it?

Edited January 21, 2021 by Jagohu

[Jackjack171]

14 hours ago, Jagohu said:

@Jackjack171: it does help, thanks, but it doesn't make it easier for me as I've already modelled the hundreds of oil and gas platforms in the Gulf according to naval charts.  They are considered as floating static objects and as such are not "avoided" automatically by DCS ships - they just sail through them which looks kinda stupid... And to calculate a trajectory to avoid them at all times - well it's gonna be no easy task as they're dynamically spawned/(and hopefully will be de-spawned once ED fixes it and it becomes possible) depending on the player's position to keep memory and CPU footprints to a minimum(picture is still from before doing all the CVW-8 skins)...
I'll keep it in mind anyhow for an improvement - from the pilots' point of view I hope it doesn't happen too often that they see the ship turn - do they? I mean by the time they get on the deck (in DCS anyway, where it's only minutes to start up an airplane as opposed to IRL) to launch or come back for recovery the ship should already be sailing into the wind, doesn't it?

 

The Pilots will see the ship turn often. We would have all the aircraft loaded on cats and the ship will be coming out of a turn into the wind. Once that happens, we get a green deck on the bow and waist (depending factors). So the Pilots are sitting there waiting. It is very dynamic. The guys in holding can see us turn and shoot the cycle. When that is complete, particularly on the waist, that's when they come down. Once the last aircraft recovers, the ship will turn so, the pilots will see and feel that as they taxi around on deck. If the sea state is bad enough, it is really sporty trying to park them. I hate (not really) that in DCS, the AI land and go to the elevator. IRL, we send them to the bow for shutdown and the fighter line or deck edge if available. And to the fantail as well. If they are not a "go" bird, we move them out of the way. There is a lot of bird swapping on deck after a recovery as you can imagine. Looking at this image, maybe you have too many objects at sea. That would put you in a restricted maneuvering situation and that's not good for flight ops. 

[Jagohu]

9 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

 IRL, we send them to the bow for shutdown and the fighter line or deck edge if available. And to the fantail as well.

I have planned a couple of recoveries like this in my campaign, where you need to taxi to the end of the bow (towards the end of CAT2) or to the fantail - latter only if you're the last to recover I guess anyway...

[Cacetudo]

I wonder if a quick review of the MOOSE AirBoss functionality for automatically steering the carrier into the wind might be of use. I set the start time at 5:15 to show the effect that the MOOSE ship-steering logic has on the carrier's journey along its defined waypoints, but the entire video might be worth watching.

 

 

I recall reading somewhere that there is a conflict between AirBoss and the Supercarrier, particularly concerning ATC comms. But this sort of intelligent steering to get the right wind over the deck for launch/recovery ops seems like it would be a great feature to have within the mission editor so that scripting knowledge isn't required of mission designers.

 

The relevant MOOSE module page is here btw: https://flightcontrol-master.github.io/MOOSE_DOCS_DEVELOP/Documentation/Ops.Airboss.html

Edited January 23, 2021 by Cacetudo
Added MOOSE link

[Sacarino111]

On 1/19/2021 at 7:03 PM, Jagohu said:

I'm working on a cyclic-ops simulation at a certain level for a single player F/A-18 campaign in the PG. So far I haven't considered implementing course changes for the carrier, but I'll keep it in mind and I might implement it if I'll have the time - although it is tricky when it comes to "smaller" operating areas like the PG and I'm afraid I don't know enough about the real operations in this respect to be able to realistically model it.

It will however reflect different layouts on the flight deck with static and dynamic objects around as they're supposed to (side numbers, liveries are checked not to be duplicated, etc.). Players will see what they're "supposed" to see on the deck and around the carrier when departing/recovering - of course everything is limited by many factors in DCS (spawn locations, taxi routes to CATs/parkings) - but still it should be quite nice in my opinion.

"Dynamic" traffic comes with individually generated flight plans and loadouts, therefore every mission start should differ with respect to AI traffic/static objects around.
 

 

Hi. Check that thread by RedKite ( 

 ). Don t know, but seems quite similar to what you are talking about. May help.

Saludos.

Saca111

[Jagohu]

10 hours ago, Cacetudo said:

I wonder if a quick review of the MOOSE AirBoss functionality for automatically steering the carrier into the wind might be of use. I set the start time at 5:15 to show the effect that the MOOSE ship-steering logic has on the carrier's journey along its defined waypoints, but the entire video might be worth watching.

 

 

I recall reading somewhere that there is a conflict between AirBoss and the Supercarrier, particularly concerning ATC comms. But this sort of intelligent steering to get the right wind over the deck for launch/recovery ops seems like it would be a great feature to have within the mission editor so that scripting knowledge isn't required of mission designers.

 

The relevant MOOSE module page is here btw: https://flightcontrol-master.github.io/MOOSE_DOCS_DEVELOP/Documentation/Ops.Airboss.html

 

Thanks, I know it can be done, it just takes time and I still have a lot of other things to do. The trick is that you need to steer the carrier on a track that doesn't bring it into an island/oil rig or inside Iranian airspace - in my campaign the Iranian air force reacts to your 12 nm zone airspace violation by intercepting you, and you probably don't want that during a recovery
I'll think of something, but you know if I do it I want to do it right so it doesn't make neither the carrier or any of the other ships in the battle group (which sail at a "fixed" position related to the CVN) run aground or do something unrealistic. It looks easy when you have the human in the loop, but you must account for every possibility for the computer, otherwise there'll be a "Murphy-moment" sooner or later
 

10 minutes ago, Sacarino111 said:

Hi. Check that thread by RedKite ( 

 ). Don t know, but seems quite similar to what you are talking about. May help.

Saludos.

Saca111

Thanks - I do it slightly differently from him, but I know his initiative and it's a relatively easy solution for people not so familiar with LUA

[F1GHTS-ON]

Jackjack171 is clearly a god source for information. I am not a naval aviator (nor US) but I can offer the following that may help:

 

• Today's Airwings are approx 60 planes (my respect to the Super Carriers of the 60's with near 90!).
• Typically each "Event", sees up to 15 planes launched. So for an 18 hour day, that will be 12 Events.
• As I understand, these cyclic Events are separated by 90 minutes, dictated by the Legacy Hornet (no longer in service) whereas back in the 70's I think there was a longer interval.
• The Deck Handlers (& their Boss who runs that Wegge Board type map you often see in videos) is a happy man after the 1st launch of the day - as he now has more space to re-spot aircraft. Mind you he has less than 90 mins to do so. What he hates, is that last recovery of the day, when he very quickly begins to run out of space on deck. 
• Any jets spotted at the Aft end of the deck are always(?) left with a towing arm already attached - in case of an urgent requirement to clear the landing area for an emergency.
• The launch/recovery cycle is very slick (I cannot emphasise my respect for the skill displayed by ALL those that do it). On the Bigger (15ish) plane launces I have witnessed, they are still shooting off the last few off the bow, as the 1st of the recovering jets begin to trap. 

 

The timings are pretty rigid. As a pilot, you will know which event you are programmed for, so your planning, briefing and walking to the jet are all fixed around that. Jackjack171 will probably confirm, but typically you will see pilots man up & start up 20-30 mins before their launch time. Find a snag then, and there is still a chance to jump in a spare or get an engineer to do his best to get her "up" again. Miss you taxi/launch slot and you become merely a bystander to the orchestra of activity.

 

At least 1 tanker shot off with each cycle. As one of the 1st jets off in that event/cycle, he will quickly get the off going tanker to take a test suck from him (prove that it works) before taking as much available off the off going tanker before he is released to join the circuit to trap.  

 

For an Alpha Strike (do they still do that?) all bets are off.

 

Much of the above applies to Static Operations (Vietnam, Gulf etc) where the CV remains in his fixed operating "box". The moving PIM is still practiced for ships on passage, but does create other issues. Think also about the none Nuclear powered escorts - in low wind environments, their ability to "keep up" (as plane guard or simply as an AAW defensive ship) get magnified with each extra know of speed (the fuel consumption curve is exponential).

 

For the Gulf & Adriatic - the CV rick was to spend 3/4 of the time moving downwind, comfortable speed, then the turn into wind ( & speed requirement?) for that launch / recovery Event. Not wishing to make the solution for the great unwashed (submariners!) any easier, but add that to the navigational hazards that you have identified, you can see why this is a complex and challenging series of coordinated events.

 

I assume all of the above makes sense, unclassified and helps you in you quest to create a good cyclic ops mission.

 

regards

[Harker]

Guys, a slight off-topic question. Is there a way to disable the comms of oil rigs, gas platforms and specific ships (such as escorts)? I'm doing a similar mission, where I have recreated the oil and gas fields in the Gulf, but they pollute the ATC comms menu (showing up as OIBA) and it's impossible to select the carrier ATC, at least in the F-18.

Some great info on here btw, thank you to the guys who posted.

[Jagohu]

On 2/2/2021 at 4:16 PM, Harker said:

Guys, a slight off-topic question. Is there a way to disable the comms of oil rigs, gas platforms and specific ships (such as escorts)? I'm doing a similar mission, where I have recreated the oil and gas fields in the Gulf, but they pollute the ATC comms menu (showing up as OIBA) and it's impossible to select the carrier ATC, at least in the F-18.

Some great info on here btw, thank you to the guys who posted.

As it is considered (for now anyway) by DCS as a "Heliport" I haven't found a way to overcome this issue either. Unfortunately it'll be there even if you don't define the frequency bit - it seems like it comes by default.

The only way around is not using the 'Simple radio' and setting your frequencies as IRL - by preset channels or punching in the frequencies. Most people do that anyway I believe.

 

@F1GHTS-ON: thanks dude, I've received some help on it but any info is appreciated  I was told it's typically 8 events a day, since you can't keep everybody running 24/24 - of course there're exceptions.

[Harker]

2 hours ago, Jagohu said:

As it is considered (for now anyway) by DCS as a "Heliport" I haven't found a way to overcome this issue either. Unfortunately it'll be there even if you don't define the frequency bit - it seems like it comes by default.

The only way around is not using the 'Simple radio' and setting your frequencies as IRL - by preset channels or punching in the frequencies. Most people do that anyway I believe.

I use realistic comms, with the aircraft radios and COMM1/COMM2 HOTAS buttons. I have Easy Comms disabled in Gameplay Options. Still, I get all applicable units in the comms menu, regardless if I am tuned in their frequency or not. Is it different for others?

Thanks for the reply, btw.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Harker

[Dunx]

It would be cool if the menu was sorted so that currently tuned frequencies were listed at the top, regardless of distance.

[Jagohu]

30 minutes ago, Harker said:

I use realistic comms, with the aircraft radios and COMM1/COMM2 HOTAS buttons. I have Easy Comms disabled in Gameplay Options. Still, I get all applicable units in the comms menu, regardless if I am tuned in their frequency or not. Is it different for others?

Thanks for the reply, btw.

 

huh, okay, that was my only idea but to be honest I haven't tried it... it's a pain, maybe we should report it as an issue hoping they'd fix it. The problem is that it behaves as a Helipad, due to the landing platform on top of it. Nevertheless I personally don't see the reason why there needs to be an ATC menu for a helipad... Thanks for the info, at least now I know too...

[Reccelow]

I'm keen on all this too.  Been experimenting with Airboss and RedKite's templates to simulate a cycle.  Airboss does a great job handling the cycle (they call it setting "recovery windows", can specify time of start/end/case) turning the ship into wind, putting up recovery tanker, E2, escorting plane guard helo that actually simulates SAR when I crash on approach,  and basic comms with a monitored marshal stack.

Redkites templates can be used with time triggers to match the Airboss cycle to do a launch or recovery deck, but I'm not up to speed on the AI taxiing logic so it still gets jammed up on the bow cats....

Also noticing with Airboss to have the AI marshal best, they need to exit out of the carrier control zone (you can specify this, default is 40NM) and reenter or a lot of times they ignore the stack and directly enter the landing pattern. 

Still fun to play with... this is a "launch window" the tanker and awacs set to go first just after the helo took off and set up on station..Airboss steers the ship into wind 5 mins before your recovery window is set to start.