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CBU 105 not working?


Accipiter
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I can not get any kills from the CBU 105. Looking at Tacview, I see the bomb disperse the bomblets, over a column of BTR's, but no hits are ever recorded?

 

CBU 97 works well, it's just the 105 that doesn't do it for me.

 

Anyone have the same results? A bug or just my bad luck?

 

I'm on 2.5.6 release.

 

Cheers.

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Works absolutly fine for me. I don't even have to set the HoF. Can you attach a track file of your attempt?

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Works absolutly fine for me. I don't even have to set the HoF. Can you attach a track file of your attempt?

 

I'll have a go.

 

Strange the 97 works but not the 105?

 

HOF was set to 500 then I tried 0, made no difference. In Tacview, the bomblets separate but don't actually hit anything?

Thanks


Edited by Accipiter
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I'll have a go.

 

Strange the 97 works but not the 105?

 

HOF was set to 500 then I tried 0, made no difference. In Tacview, the bomblets separate but don't actually hit anything?

Thanks

Again: If you would upload a track file of your attempt we could take a look at what is going wrong there.

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HOF was set to 500 then I tried 0, made no difference.

IIRC, with a HOF of 500 ft, you'll need to drop from 2000 ft AGL or less so the BLU-108 submunitions have time to open and deploy.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4066736#post4066736

 

When dropped from higher altitudes, the CBU-105 will reach a higher fall speed such that when CBU-105 casing splits @500ft, the 10x BLU-108 don't have time to deploy their anti-armour 'pucks' and either crash into the ground doing no damage or hit a single target.

 

I'm not sure if the bomb respects a HOF of 0 ft (AGL) but if it did the submunitions wouldn't deploy at all.

 

Chuck's A-10C guide recommends setting a CBU-105 HOF of 2200 ft and weapon release above 5000 ft, YMMV.

 

In Tacview, the bomblets separate but don't actually hit anything?

IIRC, unless the data in DCS/Tacview has changed, Tacview displays the centroid of the cluster submunitions group, not individual bomblets (which can only be viewed using a track replay/F6).

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IIRC, with a HOF of 500 ft,

Is that the default setting? Because I've never changed the HOF and always drop the CBU-105 from high altitudes 15,000 - 22,000 ft without any issues.

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OK, I am dropping from above 12000'.

 

 

what I think is happening is the wind appears to be blowing the bomblets off the target. I have wind at 15 knots from NNW.

 

 

Are the munitions wind corrected? WCMD, the dispenser canister should anticipate where the skeet's are going to end up being blown by the wind!

 

 

In the HOG.

 

 

Drop from 12000', wind 15 knots NNW, all the bomblets are blown SSE!

 

 

The WCMD is only the dispenser. I seems it doesn't correct for wind in respect of where the skeet's are going to end up! Once it splits open, the little guys just drift off target. A few do "see" a target, but most are off!

 

 

Cheers


Edited by Accipiter
WCMD or not?

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The initial drop point is wind corrected but the parachutes are not. I nominate a tgp target in area track a little upwind of the target group to let the parachutes drift toward the target before the rocket motors begin the attack sequence.

 

If you have a target group near a waypoint, the wind can be seen on the CDU steer page. I use my HSI needles and heading bug to help orient myself (target and wind direction).

 

wcmd-scenerio.jpg


Edited by Strider
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correct sub munitions are not wind corrected.

 

If you have a track replay we will take a look

 

thanks

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I have wind at 15 knots from NNW.

Oh well, that's a clear case then. Submunitions are not wind corrected as BIGNEWY already said and 15kts is quite a lot of wind.

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There's some clever airmanship going on here to determine a good release point. The Spi needs to be offset, upwind of the target, to get the 105 to dispense the sub munitions, so that they can detonate over the targets.

 

 

Since you cant alter the Height of Fall, the 105 always dispenses at 1800'. So the skeets drift downwind until they reach their attack altitude and then do their IR seeking and bounce up on their rocket motors before spearing the armour with the penetrator. The trick, or skill, is knowing where to set the Spi or target point.

 

 

My 105 is always set at 2.23 func time? HOF 1800, min alt 0. I don't know if you can edit that?

 

 

Now the 97 has the same HOF as the 105 with a function time of .63. Again I don't know how to alter these parameters. However, I found that using the 97 with CCIP, in a ripple, with spacing, lets me get closer to the target (ground) and get the skeets closer to the target.

 

 

My practice target is an armoured column of 20 vehicles, BMP, ZSU and some serious mobile SAM, TOR's etc. They are on a road, with forrest either side, in the Caucus hills a bridge one click north of Kveda-Llemi. N42.05-11.91, E 043-08-32.09. Wind is 15 knots from 315' magnetic.

 

 

There must be a mathematical formula that can calculate a release point for wind speed and direction, but that's way beyond my pay grade! At the moment, for 15 knots, from 6000' down to ground level, I guess at 2000' upwind of the targets. The skeets then have drifted over the main bulk of the armour and I get results! Dropping 4 (97) at 200' spacing, gives a satisfying display.

 

 

Out of interest, I tried the Harrier and Hornet with various loadouts against the target. The Hornet wins with the AGM 154A, launched outside the WEZ of the Tunguska and TOR. However, the SA-15 on the TOR does shoot down the AGM 154's...!! So, these need to be salvo launched to get through. I need a couple of HARM's as well.

 

 

The Hog needs a SEAD package to help it on to target....two pairs of Tonks with GBU and Alarm!

 

 

Cheers!

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you can edit the HOF in the INV part of the DSMS.

 

1) From the DSMS page, press OSB for INV

2) Click on a CBU-105

3) the top middle option should be labeled INV Stat (I think....i know its the top middle option for sure though)

4) on the left side is the HOF OSB. Click to cycle thru height options.

5) on the right side click load or load symmetrical if you have another cbu on mirrored station so you don't have to input changes twice. or if you want them to have individual heights, you can just load one and then program the other station differently.

 

I tested the wind with various results so the best i've come up with so far is to "eye-ball" about 400'-500' for every 10 kts of cross wind with the standard 1800 HOF setting. when viewing thru the tgp at 10+ miles, its really not a lot. think about how far the 1000' markers look from the end of a runway and 1/2 or 1/3 that amount and it should be close enough.

 

hope this helps


Edited by Strider
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you can edit the HOF in the INV part of the DSMS.

 

1) From the DSMS page, press OSB for INV

2) Click on a CBU-105

3) the top middle option should be labeled INV Stat (I think....i know its the top middle option for sure though)

4) on the left side is the HOF OSB. Click to cycle thru height options.

5) on the right side click load or load symmetrical if you have another cbu on mirrored station so you don't have to input changes twice. or if you want them to have individual heights, you can just load one and then program the other station differently.

 

I tested the wind with various results so the best i've come up with so far is to "eye-ball" about 400'-500' for every 10 kts of cross wind with the standard 1800 HOF setting. when viewing thru the tgp at 10+ miles, its really not a lot. think about how far the 1000' markers look from the end of a runway and 1/2 or 1/3 that amount and it should be close enough.

 

hope this helps

 

 

Thanks for the heads up. I forgot how you did that!

 

 

Ill have a play with the numbers. I'm thinking if you can get the bomb closer to the ground before it opens, then the skeets have less time to drift. I realise that this will reduce the damage area, but worth a fiddle!

 

 

I designed the mission, I am using, for the Viggen with its stand off CBU. But now use it to test various aircraft!

 

 

Cheers.

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correct sub munitions are not wind corrected.

 

If you have a track replay we will take a look

 

thanks

 

 

Here's a track file Have a laugh!

 

 

Oops sorry its 17 Mb. I don't know how to cut it down to 5Mb?


Edited by Accipiter
trk too big

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This brings another problem..... CBU-105s on the A-10C in DCS make no sense.

 

Let's take the CBU-97. What will happen when you drop a CBU-97 in CCRP, when your aircraft has the wind data, is that you will get a solution, which will fly your weapon in such a way, that the canister will deploy the unguided sub-munition upwind, so they will fly roughly into what you had designated as a SPI.

 

This is true for CBU-87, 97, JSOW A, ect and in general all weapons. The system will compensate for the wind so when you put the CCIP reticle or follow the CCRP line, the weapon will be relatively accurate.

 

Now, let's look at the 105. Weapon which was designed to be able to correct for wind, even if the system on the aircraft doesn't have the most accurate wind data, right ? What happens is, your CCRP will once more correct for wind, but the moment the 105 is released, it will correct back to a straight line towards your SPI (countering your CCRP solution) and it will deploy directly above your target and the wind will blow it away, off target.

 

Well, sorry... but what is the logic behind that ? Might as well use the non wind-corrected munition. Way better than trying to do mental, mathematical gymnastics of how much correction I need to put so it hits the target.... Instead of the smart weapon working for me, I am working for it. Take into account my velocity, my dive angle if any, wind speeds at different altitudes.....

 

Again, a weapon like a JSOW A, another GPS guided munition will do all the work for you and it will deploy in such a way that it hits. Same with an unguided weapons (with the aircraft systems help)

 

I have asked an F-15E WSO about it (I know, different platforms), and he told me that the CBU-105 will fly to a point where when it opens, the bomblets will hit the target.

 

 

Obviously, I do not have a source, which states how it should work.... but just following logic, might as well not have a 105 if it is meant to work as it is now.

 

I would be happy to hear a logical explanation or reasoning of why it works the way it is now.

'Shadow'

 

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Let's take the CBU-97. What will happen when you drop a CBU-97 in CCRP, when your aircraft has the wind data, is that you will get a solution, which will fly your weapon in such a way, that the canister will deploy the unguided sub-munition upwind, so they will fly roughly into what you had designated as a SPI.

 

Please share a track where the canister deploys upwind rather than over the spi.

 

Now, let's look at the 105. Weapon which was designed to be able to correct for wind, even if the system on the aircraft doesn't have the most accurate wind data, right ? What happens is, your CCRP will once more correct for wind, but the moment the 105 is released, it will correct back to a straight line towards your SPI (countering your CCRP solution) and it will deploy directly above your target and the wind will blow it away, off target.

 

105 is a GPS guidance kit with steerable fins, it'll guide the canister to a set of co-ordinates where the HOF radar altimeter splits the canister and dispenses the BLU-108 sub-munitions.

 

This corrects for winds aloft when it is dropped from high altitudes.

 

Well, sorry... but what is the logic behind that ?

 

IRL you may not have good winds aloft data for the target area.

 

Might as well use the non wind-corrected munition. Way better than trying to do mental, mathematical gymnastics of how much correction I need to put so it hits the target.... Instead of the smart weapon working for me, I am working for it. Take into account my velocity, my dive angle if any, wind speeds at different altitudes.....

 

What you are asking for is that when the pilot gives the weapon system a set of co-ordinates (SPI), it automatically calculates/uploads a different set to the bomb to correct for sub-munition drift.

 

AFAIK this is not how the real bomb works and the pilot has control of the co-ordinates where the canister will dispense i.e. you don't want the canister to dispense over areas where there are civilians/friendlies.

 

Again, a weapon like a JSOW A, another GPS guided munition will do all the work for you and it will deploy in such a way that it hits. Same with an unguided weapons (with the aircraft systems help) ...

 

I would be happy to hear a logical explanation or reasoning of why it works the way it is now.

 

JDAM, JSOW, etc. are GPS guided to their point of impact or dispense their sub-munitions at lower altitudes. Like the 105, the sub-munitions are uncorrected and effected by ground winds, etc.


Edited by Ramsay

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Please share a track where the canister deploys upwind rather than over the spi.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=267202 Here are your tracks. This is the backbone of the LASTE system.

 

105 is a GPS guidance kit with steerable fins, it'll guide the canister to a set of co-ordinates where the HOF radar altimeter splits the canister and dispenses the BLU-108 sub-munitions.

 

This corrects for winds aloft when it is dropped from high altitudes.

 

Ye, if it knows how much to correct to get it back flying towards the coordinates, why wouldn't it know how much to compensate upwind, so the sub-munitions flies into the target ?

 

What you are asking for is that when the pilot gives the weapon system a set of co-ordinates (SPI), it automatically calculates/uploads a different set to the bomb to correct for sub-munition drift.

 

LASTE gives a release solution, which would ballistically make a weapon hit a given target, be it coordinates via CCRP or a CCIP solution (also depending on the weapon's profile). Once the wind corrected munition is released, it can its self guide/correct to such a position that it hits the target's coordinates.

 

 

AFAIK this is not how the real bomb works and the pilot has control of the co-ordinates where the canister will dispense i.e. you don't want the canister to dispense over areas where there are civilians/friendlies.

 

Your conclusion is the opposite of what will happen. Also, no need to give any coordinates of where the canister will dispense, don't know how you reached that conclusion. It is wind correction, not coordinates changing. What will happen when the weapon flies directly to the SPI and the munitions gets blown into the city right next to it ? (overexagerated). Are you trying to tell me that the solution is to guess how much offset you have to give via coordinates to the weapon so you can hope it hits, instead of the weapon using its sensors to do it precisely ?

 

 

 

JDAM, JSOW, etc. are GPS guided to their point of impact or dispense their sub-munitions at lower altitudes. Like the 105, the sub-munitions are uncorrected and effected by ground winds, etc.

 

JSOW can have the same HOF set as a CBU-105 and as far as I've tested, it will compensate for wind, so the munition hits on target.

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=267202 Here are your tracks. This is the backbone of the LASTE system.

 

The tracks don't play back correctly in 2.5.6.52196 but I was able to see the wind conditions, HOF=1200, ~6000 ft AGL release, etc. and what targets you are dropping on.

 

First, the CBU-97 is wind corrected by LASTE but it doesn't take into account the sub-munitions, rather the canister is treated as if it is a dumb bomb and will hit the target vehicles.

 

As a result, although it opens at 1200 ft and upwind of the target, the center of the sub-munition spread is down wind of the targets.

 

DwIiO12.jpg

 

Ye, if it knows how much to correct to get it back flying towards the coordinates, why wouldn't it know how much to compensate upwind, so the sub-munitions flies into the target ?

The CBU-105 guidance kit likely uses proportional steering to correct for drift, it doesn't use a table of wind speeds and altitudes and can't predict/know what the wind speeds are at ground level.

 

I concur with your conclusion that (in DCS) the CBU-97 with LASTE wind compensation is more accurate/effective than the CBU-105 as it has an element of wind compensation.

 

Note: this may not be the case IRL where wind aloft data may be less accurate/predictable or the weapon is dropped from higher altitudes (20,000 ft).

 

As you've already been answered in your earlier thread by SME's with greater in depth knowledge of the A-10C and it's systems, there isn't much more I can add.


Edited by Ramsay

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I've also being told by an actual WSO that it works, the way I am describing it too (although on another platform), so who is right ?

 

One person saying something doesn't always mean he is correct for what ever reason. I will try to get more opinions on the matter.

 

I know it is an opinion at this point, but one system countering the work of another system, which already does a good job, doesn't seem right

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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