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Some interesting information from Nick Grey on a youtube comment


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Subs also make much more sense if you dont sell a simple "boxed" product, but a platform that is constantly being supported and improved. Who pays for that? You could do versions, but do you really dont want ED (and heatblur and razbaam and all the others) to have to support all their modules and unfinished modules that may take years to complete on various different DCSW versions? With a subscription model you can avoid that. With versioning, like P3D, you get a mess. And it would be a whole lot bigger mess for DCS.

 

ED has not problem actually with "big mess versions", all modules has been move to future versions (except defund VEAO) from 1, 1.25, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5 DCS versions. You need remember the 3rd parties and ED working on a comun SDK and TDK tools, updated with the last version, not sure what is the problem to use them when ED has intent maintain a single core version (except alpha 2.0 when ED test new EDGE Dx11 engine), and the future Vulkan "3.0" not going to change them.

 

The old versions (1.25, 1.5, 2.0) has been decrepated when a new has been release, maintain compatibility.


Edited by Silver_Dragon

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DCS: Roadmap (unofficial):https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116893

DCS: List of Vacant models: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4076891#post4076891

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DCS community is the only one petitioning the devs to INCREASE prices. What a time to be alive! By the way, ED doesn't have regionally adjusted prices, unlike most other gamedevs. So a Russian like myself and an American or Dutchman would pay the equal sum... Which is already quite high, as most AAA titles for PC nowadays cost around 2k rubles pre-covid, and an F/A-18 costs more than 5k rubles... Already. And you want this sum to increase even more. And no sales. Do you really think community wouldn't shrink after this? It certainly would even in the rich western countries, and the ex-soviet one would almost cease to exist, because buying a module costing 10k rubles, for which you can buy 5 AAA games, in a country which is quite poor, is not even funny, it's straight insanity. I know this genre is quite a narrow niche, and requires some passion be default... But if you require just THIS level of sacrifice for the sake of flying just one virtual airplane... I believe that the number of copies saled would drop so much it would diminish extra gain from increased price. Not everyone is as fanatic as you are here.

 

No offense, just saying that not everyone is ready to buy the top PC, full HOTAS set and VR set and pay hundreds of dollars for the sake of flying a few virtual planes. You might be the ones, and might mostly communicate with people with the same mindset, but I don't really think that this is the case for the silent majority of the community. Even among the simmers such people aren't the majority. Most view the sim as just a game, and have a threshold for the amount of cash they can spend on it. And ED would lose them if they accept what you offer.

 

 

Well, living in a poor country I can understand you on how hard is to keep this hobby. In my country a full fidelity module cost more than 40% of a minimum wage, a Saitek X56 costs 2.5 minimum wages, a Ryzen 5, RTX 2060 and 16gb costs more than 10 minimum wages, but the Joystick, and PC will mean nothing without the base game to play.

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I should clarify that I have no objection to paying. However I am not paying any more for a program that doesn’t work in my world. Make it functional in VR (my choice) in a format that actually has MP servers (I could roll back to 2.5 but there is nobody to play with).

If the above happens THEN I will pay, but not paying for promises.

Again, love it when it works!

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DCS community is the only one petitioning the devs to INCREASE prices. What a time to be alive! By the way, ED doesn't have regionally adjusted prices, unlike most other gamedevs.

 

No no we do not WANT to pay more! I am suggesting that there are some flaws in ED's pricing strategy that prevents them from making as much profit (from some of us) as they could. And we're worried that ED might be out of business some day because of that.

 

I didn't know that the prices were not regionally ajusted and that is obviously a BIG problem.

 

No offense taken. For the record I play with a 9 year old PC (sandy bridge), not even overclocked.

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Well, living in a poor country I can understand you on how hard is to keep this hobby. In my country a full fidelity module cost more than 40% of a minimum wage, a Saitek X56 costs 2.5 minimum wages, a Ryzen 5, RTX 2060 and 16gb costs more than 10 minimum wages, but the Joystick, and PC will mean nothing without the base game to play.

 

My idea is not actually about catering to those from poorer counties, it was about the fact that most players even from the rich countries are not die-hard fanatical virpils ready to throw hundreds and even thousands of dollars into a mere game. Many would have only mid or hi-mid end PC's, no VR and only a basic joystick, and they would not spend more than they already do on modules because it'a just a game for them, not a life-defining hobby and definitely not some status consumption like some here perceive it. Those people constitute the majority of customers. And they are going to be lost be cranking the prices. In poorer countries the current prices are still bearable to most of the local DCS communities, but the effect of even higher prices would be disastrous for the consumer base, if there is no regional adjustment for prices. And those countries are significant for ED, Russian market for one has a double digit percentage of the whole sales.

 

EDIT: And when it comes to fears about ED going out of business, they boasted great increase in consumer base and turnover over the last few years, which has even allowed them to vastly increase their manpower. They are not nearly as wealthy and robust as EA or some other giant corp, but thankfully it doesn't seem to be in a trouble for the time being. And as I have already written, pricing much more would mean losing much of the audience, or making those who stay buy less... This can easily prove much more troublesome than what we already have. Anyways, ED knows how to do their business better than us here on forums. They have been quite successful so far, for a company of such a niche. They don't really want our advice on this matter, and our petty forum disputes here wouldn't affect their decision-making.


Edited by Nipil
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Just a quick note: a subscription model is not really a solution. Subscription services find themselves under more pressure to put out frequent updates and upgrades, and they often have to push cosmetic updates like character skins instead of under-the-hood upgrades because people want to feel like their subscription is paying for something. Just look at the complaints about fewer updates to the Viper as ED has shifted focus to bug-fixing and imagine if each of those complaints constituted lost revenue.

 

And then consider what happens if there is a major showstopping bug. People will simply cancel their subscriptions for a month rather than waiting for it to be fixed, so ED will lose revenue at a time when they need to spend more. All in all it is a bad idea. And while people have mentioned other successful subscription services, none of those are for a single product. The only single game subscription that seems to be successful is World of Warcraft. Several other MMOs have tried to replicate that business model, and almost all eventually switched back to a purchase-based model, even Elder Scrolls Online, a game that came with a massive fanbase before it was even launched. Compare sales of Skyrim to DCS, and then tell me that a DCS subscription will succeed where ESO failed.

 

More third-party content in general may be the best solution, they will earn less per sale, but it requires less up-front expenses and in theory could result in more products for sale and a more rapid development cycle. However, the problems with the Hawk are also a cautionary tale, because third-party content has to be maintained through various updates and changes to the base software. There are good reasons why ED is cautious about bringing in third party devs. We often don't see the risks, because we see the successful third-party devs like Belsimtek and Heatblur and such, and we don't realize how absolutely unexpected and uncommon it is for those sort of success stories to happen.

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I not understand a problem...... someone has continue "hijack" posts.

 

The "subscription" post, is here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=277843

 

Please, we can return about Nick Grey comentary?

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DCS: Roadmap (unofficial):https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116893

DCS: List of Vacant models: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4076891#post4076891

21Squad DCS: World News: https://www.facebook.com/21Squad-219508958071000/

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EDIT: And when it comes to fears about ED going out of business, they boasted great increase in consumer base and turnover over the last few years, which has even allowed them to vastly increase their manpower. They are not nearly as wealthy and robust as EA or some other giant corp, but thankfully it doesn't seem to be in a trouble for the time being. And as I have already written, pricing much more would mean losing much of the audience, or making those who stay buy less... This can easily prove much more troublesome than what we already have. Anyways, ED knows how to do their business better than us here on forums. They have been quite successful so far, for a company of such a niche. They don't really want our advice on this matter, and our petty forum disputes here wouldn't affect their decision-making.

 

Sure. This is the chit-chat section of the forum. Nothing more.

Nevertheless, I didn't hear Mr Grey boast record profits. And. I agree with another poster that selling far-from-finished products is not often a good sign.


Edited by Pyker
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We're speculating on revenue models, when we don't have visibility of the ED's figures. I don't know what models would or wouldn't work for ED, but I do have my own priorities:

 

I want to "own" the thing. Legally I don't think we can own software, but we can "own" the perpetual license to run it. It's not the same, but it's as close as we can get. I think the "simulations" software category ages pretty well. I still use a certain combat aircraft sim from the late 90s, a certain WW2 submarine sim from 2007... I "own" them and can install them regardless of what happens to the companies that developed them. Whatever ED decides to do in the future, I'd like to be able to return to DCS in 20 years time and complete some of those more difficult campaigns. There may be fancier sims by then, but quite possibly no other way to fly a MiG-19 or Viggen.

 

Price is important to me, but somewhat less so. I own almost all of the modules, although there are some I rarely load, and a few I haven't loaded yet. If they were more expensive, I'd be more choosy and only buy those that really interest me. So ED would not earn any more revenue from me, and possibly less.

 

I'd guess though that ED is well capable of evaluating their own situation and is following the course that best suits their ambitions.

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I want to "own" the thing..

 

Lets clarify that. Do you want to own (the right to run) the current binaries, with all the missing features and performance issues and bugs, or do you want to own a perpetual right to run the current / latest DSCW core with the modules you own?

 

Either way, I agree. I just dont think it has to be a binary option. Why wouldnt you let people buy a perpetual license and offer a subscription model ? They are not mutually exclusive.

 

If they were more expensive, I'd be more choosy and only buy those that really interest me. So ED would not earn any more revenue from me, and possibly less.

 

The issue is you are only paying for new content. You are not paying for ongoing development or improvements in the base game. If you want ED to spend more resources on improving things like the graphics engine, or weather model or dynamic campaigns or whatever, the "module purchase" model provides no financial incentive to ED to do that.

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The issue is you are only paying for new content. You are not paying for ongoing development or improvements in the base game. If you want ED to spend more resources on improving things like the graphics engine, or weather model or dynamic campaigns or whatever, the "module purchase" model provides no financial incentive to ED to do that.

 

WTF?

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DCS: Roadmap (unofficial):https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116893

DCS: List of Vacant models: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4076891#post4076891

21Squad DCS: World News: https://www.facebook.com/21Squad-219508958071000/

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WTF?
He probably said it a little unfortunate, but the base line is right.

 

We are paying for the planes, but everyone is asking for improvement of DCS World, something nobody is paying a single cent for. So the idea is - you can not demand something for something free. Yes, your planes have to work, but you can not demand stuff like new weather, clouds, vulcan etc.

 

All that is a Bonus from ED for something thats free. So no demanding - unless you have paid for it.

 

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Hi all

 

Just to clear things up as there are some misconception in this thread.

 

When you buy a module you agree to the EULA, and its licence agreement can be found here

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/license/

 

We continue to develop, maintain and support the modules as well as developing and maintaining the core of DCSWorld. Your support is appreciated whether you choose early access or wait for a full release module.

 

We have no plans to change the pay model.

 

Thank you

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Hi all

 

Just to clear things up as there are some misconception in this thread.

 

When you buy a module you agree to the EULA, and its licence agreement can be found here

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/license/

 

We continue to develop, maintain and support the modules as well as developing and maintaining the core of DCSWorld. Your support is appreciated whether you choose early access or wait for a full release module.

 

We have no plans to change the pay model.

 

Thank you

So what you are saying is;

 

"It's nice that you guys wanna give us more money to develop and maintain more awesome modules and maps, but - no thanks..."

 

You ED Guys are nuts. Seriously nuts. Sorry.

 

 

 

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So what you are saying is;

 

"It's nice that you guys wanna give us more money to develop and maintain more awesome modules and maps, but - no thanks..."

 

You ED Guys are nuts. Seriously nuts. Sorry.

 

 

 

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Surely do you think Weather engine, Dynamic Campaing and other DCS core features has "on hold"?

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Wishlist: ED / 3rd Party Campaings

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DCS: Roadmap (unofficial):https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116893

DCS: List of Vacant models: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4076891#post4076891

21Squad DCS: World News: https://www.facebook.com/21Squad-219508958071000/

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Surely do you think Weather engine, Dynamic Campaing and other DCS core features has "on hold"?
No i dont. Just saying that... Ah f.... it. If ED does not want to have more money to play with, to do a Phantom II or what have you, zero f.... given. It was just an idea to give ED a little more playmoney to do some cool things maybe a little faster.

 

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So what you are saying is;

 

"It's nice that you guys wanna give us more money to develop and maintain more awesome modules and maps, but - no thanks..."

 

 

No, he means: we do not think it would be a good idea to charge more for modules, or to charge anything for The DCS world base.

Probably for reasons along the lines of those suggested by Nipil and some others a few posts above.

 

That is disappointing for those who are not interested in buying more WIP plane modules, but that's what it is.

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No i dont. Just saying that... Ah f.... it. If ED does not want to have more money to play with, to do a Phantom II or what have you, zero f.... given. It was just an idea to give ED a little more playmoney to do some cool things maybe a little faster.

 

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Only a example, build a Dynamic campaing (RTS) not need a aicraft code programer or more money. Require more specialized personal as a RTS programer. ED has some of them, making progress on RTS DC from some years ago.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4168367&postcount=233

Dynamic Campaign

Work on the dynamic campaign has been underway for over a year, and the progress has been steady on this very complex task. We understand that this is one of the most awaited features in DCS World and we are giving it the attention it deserves.

 

Much of the work is focused on the dynamic campaign creation tool layers as part of the Mission Editor, developing machine learning mechanics, and creating an AI neural network for the RTS element of the system. The machine learning and neural network tasks are particularly challenging, but we believe they should provide a unique dynamic campaign experience.

 

We expect to start testing this feature in the latter part of 2020.

 

From ED carrer jobs

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=217832

RTS programmer

Home > Jobs > RTS Programmer

You will:

create a software component of a strategy in real time

develop project architecture, program components

You have:

C ++ programming experience in MS Visual studio for Windows

experience working on games of the RTS genre from 3 years

knowledge and ability to apply graph theory

knowledge of AI algorithms used in games

knowledge of Client-Server technologies

experience writing multithreaded applications

English at least Intermediate

The plus will be:

released commercial projects in the RTS genre

knowledge of java script

knowledge of resource management algorithms for economic strategies


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DCS: Roadmap (unofficial):https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116893

DCS: List of Vacant models: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4076891#post4076891

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No i dont. Just saying that... Ah f.... it. If ED does not want to have more money to play with, to do a Phantom II or what have you, zero f.... given. It was just an idea to give ED a little more playmoney to do some cool things maybe a little faster.

 

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Your support is already appreciated, the team are working as fast as they can believe me, we have a busy schedule and most of the team are still working from home, we could not go any faster no matter how much money you throw at us :)

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WTF?

 

What are you confused about? You can only buy new content. New maps, new planes, new campaigns, fancier carriers. You cant pay for new graphics engines, better VR performance, better atmospheric modelling, dynamic campaigns or anything in the free DCSW.

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Your support is already appreciated, the team are working as fast as they can believe me, we have a busy schedule and most of the team are still working from home, we could not go any faster no matter how much money you throw at us :)
Shure? A little bonus can do wonders in terms of motivation. Trust me... ;-)

 

To be a bit more serious: i do belive that everybody i working incredibly hard and appreciat that a lot. Thanks for your open words. And now: back to the Phantom II or the eagerly awaited module.

 

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What are you confused about? You can only buy new content. New maps, new planes, new campaigns, fancier carriers. You cant pay for new graphics engines, better VR performance, better atmospheric modelling, dynamic campaigns or anything in the free DCSW.

 

What the next? payware AFM antibalistic missile model, Submarine damage model, infantry wounds or car suspension simulation? DCS dont develop paying by features, develop making progresive steeps.

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Wishlist: ED / 3rd Party Campaings

My Rig: Intel I-5 750 2.67Ghz / Packard Bell FMP55 / 16 GB DDR3 RAM / GTX-1080 8 GB RAM / HD 1Tb/2Tb / Warthog / 2 MDF / TFPR

 

DCS: Roadmap (unofficial):https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116893

DCS: List of Vacant models: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4076891#post4076891

21Squad DCS: World News: https://www.facebook.com/21Squad-219508958071000/

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So what you are saying is;

 

"It's nice that you guys wanna give us more money to develop and maintain more awesome modules and maps, but - no thanks..."

 

You ED Guys are nuts. Seriously nuts. Sorry.

 

 

 

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No, what he is saying is that ED has looked over the numbers, and they have decided that their current business model probably works better than any proposed changes. One important rule in business is that it is much easier to get sales from existing customers than it is to bring in new ones, and so you need to be careful about anything that might drive off existing customers. Bringing in new customers is important as well, of course, and usually there is no need to choose between the two.

 

So they've probably considered that many customers already own the modules that they really want. Hence frequent sales to tempt customers towards older modules that maybe don't excite them, but they might buy for $25 instead of $50 (for example, people who don't usually fly helicopters), and working on new products that longtime customers will eagerly buy like Supercarrier and the upcoming Syria map.

 

They probably have a better idea of their various business options, sales figures, customer data, etc than we do

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What the next? payware AFM antibalistic missile model, Submarine damage model, infantry wounds or car suspension simulation?

 

Thats exactly the problem. If they make a new module that lets you control submarines and have a (really poor) silent hunter competitor, they can charge money for it. If they develop a dynamic campaign engine or volumetric clouds or a new 3D engine that triples your VR framerates, they get nothing. If you where CEO, what would you devote more developers to?

 

.

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