Making DCS more accessible to new players.

[David OC]

There is no correct answer here, it takes time and many (especially these days) want instant satisfaction. They get frustrated that it's not like other AAA titles.

Some cannot comprehend it takes a long time to really master. Especially online, we do help new guy's. But we also get how do you start the 25T quite a bit online and that's why you also get RTFM.

 

It's also why I did a few videos on

that also shows me setting up the controls. What more can we do to spoon feed, when many just want to be real good in a very hard and dynamic sim in a week or month lol.

So for me that's how you make it easier. Explain to them that this will take some time to be half proficient, yes you will need to RTFM. Basic flight, Systems, weapons, weapon systems, tactics, team work online etc. LOTS to learn sorry about that.

Edited July 5, 2020 by David OC

[randomTOTEN]

In support of the "quick start" training missions. They don't have to be unrealistic either. These combat aircraft must all have a "scramble" procedure, and really that's not any different than what a user does when they don't want to perform any of the system tests and checks, and want to get in the air as quickly as possible.

There could be "Scramble" instant action missions, with a set time required to be airborne for mission success. Likewise, mission planners should have the ability to put the aircraft in some sort of "Alert" state (Perhaps **Takeoff from Ramp ALERT/QRA Start**)

 

 

EDIT: Video

Edited July 6, 2020 by randomTOTEN

[Vertigo72]

I think you are all missing the point. Game mode doesnt solve anything. Game avionics doesnt even appear to work in most modules and where it does, like the Su25, it creates a parallel set of keybinds which may be easier, but who wants to configure and learn two different modes?

Newbies, or at least people like me, dont want to turn this in to an arcade game. We are fine knowing what we dont know, and thus ignoring capabilities we havent mastered yet; what we need is more gradual help learning those things.

 

Instant action is great, but doesnt really solve the problem either. Sure, depending on the mission it may let you skip over the cold start and may help you get some feel for the game. For that, its great. But you are not likely to accomplish much if anything if you havent learned how to use the radar, your weapons and your nav equipment. And it obviously doesnt teach you anything about starting up your plane.

 

Say you are ready to move on from instant action with hot start, and want to learn how to fly another mission where you start cold on the parking. The cold start tutorial for the tomcat takes almost half an hour and goes in to excruciating detail no ordinary human can even hope to remember by going through once. Or twice. Or frankly, three times. And every time you do it, at the end you dont even have a mission to fly. You did it all "for nothing". So more likely you follow it once ( at most, assuming you dont cancel it half way), then try the mission you actually wanted to fly, but you fail to properly start up your jet because you forgot to press the master reset button after unsweeping your wings or you forgot how to configure your tacan (and no one ever told you about windows+home).

 

Let me try to explain it this way; imagine you are showing off dcs and your simpit to a friend who knows a bit about flying but doesnt know DCS at all. I bet you will manage to give him some impressions and probably even experience some combat in 30 minutes. You will not enable game mode. But you will also not be explaining him how to check his emergency hydraulic pressure. I bet you give him a cold start. You will talk him through the steps or even do some parts for him during startup. I bet you fast forward the INS alignment phase. Maybe not in the first flight as you could use the time to explain some instruments and the like, but you probably will skip it in the second flight. In flight you may take control over the radar to help him out, you will explain the things he doesnt know but needs to know, you will help him get to a point where he can enjoy himself.

 

On a second and third flight perhaps you will help a little less, maybe just some reminders if he struggles to get his engines started.

 

But here is what I bet none of you will do: give him a 500 page manual and 7 hours worth of youtube video's and then walk out of the room, saying its a study sim, suck it up. And thats more or less what DCS does. You wouldnt do that. You will also not say: there is instant action, thats how you enable game mode, you figure the rest out. You will at least try to ensure he has a good time while learning things one step at a time without completely overwhelming him with things he cant all memorize at once. Thats the sort of experience I wish DCS could better mimic without an experienced friend looking over our shoulder.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Vertigo72

[SmirkingGerbil]

I think you are all missing the point.

 

 

. . .

 

 

But here is what I bet none of you will do: give him a 500 page manual and 7 hours worth of youtube video's . . .

 

. . . Thats the sort of experience I wish DCS could better mimic without an experienced friend looking over our shoulder.

 

How do you think I learned? Or those of us who have put in the "time" so to speak. No one was over my shoulder, ever. I have no friends who play DCS, I don't know anyone here well enough to ask them to look over my shoulder.

 

I have literally put in more time than you list, and read the 600+ page manual for the A-10C, and now reading through the manual for the P-47. You Tube Videos are a part of the staple, I have them bookmarked and put in a folder in my browser and will revisit them. Seven hours is just the start.

 

I guess we are at an impasse. What you want, you have made clear, but as to whether DCS will fill that void, or someone will guide you through this as a new user interaction is anyone's guess.

 

Good luck. I hope you find what you need to enjoy DCS. Sounds like you have invested a lot of time, I hope it bears some fruit and eventually enjoyment for you. :thumbup:

[kotor633]

In # 24 it was already pointed out that "DCS literally has" Instant Action "and" Arcade "mode." Where getting started is a little more accessible. In addition, there are Flaming Cliffs 3 where the entry hurdle is not nearly as high. Then there is luckily Chuck's Guide as well as many, many films on youtube. And last but not least, the good, old, more or less detailed manual. If you don't find any help and are still not willing to invest some sweat, because DCS is still a SIMULATION, then you are better off with Ace Combat, JASF, Hawx & Co.

[eracer1111]

How long does it take a pilot to earn his/her wings? Become carrier qualified? Master the art and science of air combat and ground attack?

 

IMHO, DCS is hard to learn because the learning is its own reward. I've spent a LOT of hours trying to get my simple two monitor set up the way I want. I've learned how to use Helios, OvGME, what lua files are (and why they are so important, and I'm starting to explore the power of modding.

 

None of these things are intuitive in DCS, and finding answers to issues that arise is often an exercise in frustration. But after enough research, and enough questions asked, and some experimentation, I solved those problems. Heck, I can barely land the SU-25T gracefully. :P I will practice in that plane, waiting to master my F/A-18C once I get better at all phases of the flight regime, and have put in the time to learn all the complex systems the Hornet has to offer.

 

Learning to master a complex simulation like DCS is a challenge. One thing I've found, and am eternally grateful for, is the sense of cameraderie I feel in this community. Sometimes people have an answer to a vexing problem, sometimes they don't, but stimulate me to puzzle out a solution.

 

I get what you are saying - we all want DCS to be a complete pilot training program that can get us up and killing bogeys in a week. But if you enjoy the journey, the ride will be that much sweeter.

Edited July 6, 2020 by eracer1111

[Pikey]

I think you are all missing the point. Game mode doesnt solve anything. Game avionics doesnt even appear to work in most modules and where it does, like the Su25, it creates a parallel set of keybinds which may be easier, but who wants to configure and learn two different modes?

Newbies, or at least people like me, dont want to turn this in to an arcade game. We are fine knowing what we dont know, and thus ignoring capabilities we havent mastered yet; what we need is more gradual help learning those things.

 

Instant action is great, but doesnt really solve the problem either. Sure, depending on the mission it may let you skip over the cold start and may help you get some feel for the game. For that, its great. But you are not likely to accomplish much if anything if you havent learned how to use the radar, your weapons and your nav equipment. And it obviously doesnt teach you anything about starting up your plane.

 

Say you are ready to move on from instant action with hot start, and want to learn how to fly another mission where you start cold on the parking. The cold start tutorial for the tomcat takes almost half an hour and goes in to excruciating detail no ordinary human can even hope to remember by going through once. Or twice. Or frankly, three times. And every time you do it, at the end you dont even have a mission to fly. You did it all "for nothing". So more likely you follow it once ( at most, assuming you dont cancel it half way), then try the mission you actually wanted to fly, but you fail to properly start up your jet because you forgot to press the master reset button after unsweeping your wings or you forgot how to configure your tacan (and no one ever told you about windows+home).

 

Let me try to explain it this way; imagine you are showing off dcs and your simpit to a friend who knows a bit about flying but doesnt know DCS at all. I bet you will manage to give him some impressions and probably even experience some combat in 30 minutes. You will not enable game mode. But you will also not be explaining him how to check his emergency hydraulic pressure. I bet you give him a cold start. You will talk him through the steps or even do some parts for him during startup. I bet you fast forward the INS alignment phase. Maybe not in the first flight as you could use the time to explain some instruments and the like, but you probably will skip it in the second flight. In flight you may take control over the radar to help him out, you will explain the things he doesnt know but needs to know, you will help him get to a point where he can enjoy himself.

 

On a second and third flight perhaps you will help a little less, maybe just some reminders if he struggles to get his engines started.

 

But here is what I bet none of you will do: give him a 500 page manual and 7 hours worth of youtube video's and then walk out of the room, saying its a study sim, suck it up. And thats more or less what DCS does. You wouldnt do that. You will also not say: there is instant action, thats how you enable game mode, you figure the rest out. You will at least try to ensure he has a good time while learning things one step at a time without completely overwhelming him with things he cant all memorize at once. Thats the sort of experience I wish DCS could better mimic without an experienced friend looking over our shoulder.

 

When I show off VR to people round the house and give them the stick and throttle, I wouldnt hand over the stick and say,

"OK!, Right hold on the DMS, left on the Weapon select for AIM-120's, push undesignate, move the TDC on your throttle over the brick on the right MFD, one click for L&S, now steer towards the TD and centre the dot, wait for the shoot cue..."

 

No...

Its the real world, I say, 'throw it around, have fun and shooting is for another day'. Then laugh with them when it explodes, offer them a drink and change the topic. Or if they showed an affinity for it I'd spin the chair, make them crash and finish the conversation because chances are their wife is looking bored already and needs saved. They can come back to that topic if they choose, 1 to 1 and I'll give them a link to this thread to make sure they know what the expectation is.

 

It's the same reason when someone asks me what I do for a living, I just say "IT". Because if I expanded on what I actually do, their eyes would glaze over in seconds.

 

C'mon, why are you insistent there is an easy short way to learn how to fly a complex plane simulated reasonably? I know we all want to have knowledge injected direct to our brains, but it doesn't work that way.

 

You are hoping someone here that's flown DCS from the start is going to come up with a different reply, aren't you, that the best way to teach someone and get them interested is >>"This"<< and it's going to be..., ooh never thought of that, 100% of the world would get hooked in minutes. Not even free beer and hookers can get your average Counterstrike player interested in DCS. In fact, I sometimes laugh recalling people in Arma tellign me to do the chopper because, you know, I do DCS, so I must love it. No one gets it. The idea that there isn't a fast track learning isn't acceptable for you, else you wouldnt be here nearly a week later with the same question, same scenario, listening to the same answers.

 

Military sims either interest people or they dont. If people aren't interested, they are not compelled to work at them. The problem is, every individual ticks at a different rate, is faster or slower than another, has more background than another, has different expectations than another and ultimately will learn at a different enthusiasm than another individual.

 

But suppose there is this magic way... Let's hear it then. Matt Wagner would love to implement a magic sauce that gets everyone off PUBG and into DCS, you know. And if you can pull off that trick... you can earn your millions.

 

Otherwise it goes like this. Same rule for my Dog when she tries it on.

 

I put the food down.

 

They choose to eat or not.

 

That is it.

[Vertigo72]

No...

Its the real world, I say, 'throw it around, have fun and shooting is for another day'. Then laugh with them when it explodes, offer them a drink and change the topic.

 

Sheesh. Youd make an excellent instructor and trainer :thumbup: You really wouldnt be able to motivate a friend who is in to flightsims already or "sell" DCS to him any better than saying "its too hard for you, idiot, go play something else instead".

 

But I guess that is exactly the vibe I get on this forum: making DCS more accessible to new players, making sure they can learn at their own pace and have fun while doing so, is not desirable. You would even chase your own friend away! Good thing your livelihood doesnt depend on DCS sales I guess?

 

C'mon, why are you insistent there is an easy short way to learn how to fly a complex plane simulated reasonably?

 

Thats not what Im asking for. But there are easy and short steps people can take on a long journey.

 

A friend of mine has a 737 simulator that he rents out by the hour. Flying a 737 is not easier than a DCS plane. The manual is a little bit thicker. Some of his customers are professional pilots who want to train for a type rating, some are xplane pilots who want the real cockpit experience, but at least half of his customers are "noobs"; interested in flying, but rarely flown anything other than a cessna and usually not even that. Doesnt matter. You book an hour, you fly an hour. You learn a bit. You have some fun. If you enjoyed it, you may come back later and learn more. Many of them do and some even manage to learn to fly a 737 eventually (despite that costing a pretty penny). They may read books inbetween. But not before they got somewhere; I imagine if he where to tell his customers "flying a 737 is really hard, go read this 2700 page book first, then come back", he wouldnt be in business very long. That approach may work for professionals looking to make a career out of it, not so much if your income depends on people doing it for fun.

 

Not even free beer and hookers can get your average Counterstrike player interested in DCS.

 

Again, not what Im asking for. Im talking about the people who are interested enough to give DCS a try, but give up soon after. Like almost everyone I know, who enjoy other flight sims or fly RL but within 30 minutes hit some brick wall and cant be arsed to read through 500 pages to get to the next step.

 

Ive built a simpit for my former aeroclub. Its purpose built for gliding and runs condor, but I also installed and configured x-plane, RoF and DCS. There are quite a few warbirds at our club, but guess which simulator no one ever uses? And yet I know for fact if I spent a few weekends training people to help them get started, many would get hooked.

 

DCS community seems to be self selected by people who actually get a kick out of reading manuals, who enjoy and take pride in reading 500 pages before cranking their engine. I get it, some people do. Its not the majority of people interested in flight sims, military or otherwise. Most want their hand held.

 

The idea that there isn't a fast track learning isn't acceptable for you, else you wouldnt be here nearly a week later with the same question, same scenario, listening to the same answers.

 

You are not a very good listener are you? I can only guess you must have read so many complaints from people saying its too hard that you get this automatic reflex reaction. My problem isnt that its too hard. Other people's problem isnt that its too realistic. If you still havent understood that by now, maybe stop posting and start reading again.

[Pikey]

Sheesh. Youd make an excellent instructor and trainer :thumbup: You really wouldnt be able to motivate a friend who is in to flightsims already or "sell" DCS to him any better than saying "its too hard for you, idiot, go play something else instead".

You still don't get it, I would never want to, I already said so, why do you not understand? I instructed in 2014-2015 in TAW, ran my own squadron 2015-2018, IP'd in 132nd 2018/2019. At no stage did I ever take on board anyone who didnt want to read a manual, didnt want to excel and didn't try. Why? They make rubbish students and are time wasters. There is no need to chocolate coat anything in DCS, it naturally excludes folks like you who were outraged at the possibility they might actually have to read a manual, then and spend a week on the forums attempting to garner support for degenerate play because they didnt like the "master test button" checks in the F-14 cold start lesson.

 

DCS is a simulator. It simulates with some accuracy, highly complex military aircraft, with an associated sandbox that is generally empty until you fill it with your own content. It suits people that bring their own imagination, who are curious and like investigating how things work. It doesn't suit people that need a lot of content up front, or that dont have time for challenges, or dont see the point in those. The types of people that play DCS and enjoy it don't have a problem with content, they bring their imagination and will sit and work at it. Its not for everyone. Now stop going on about this and either play it or don't, no one is going to help you get over your own needy personality.

[Sr.]

My first post here... but in my short experience with DCS, and having nearly quit after much frustration, at the very least I would have a "noob" sub and spend a little time watching several of "Cap" Grim Reapers youtube videos.

 

Helped me a ton.

[David OC]

 

But here is what I bet none of you will do: give him a 500 page manual and 7 hours worth of youtube video's and then walk out of the room, saying its a study sim, suck it up. And thats more or less what DCS does. You wouldnt do that. You will also not say: there is instant action, thats how you enable game mode, you figure the rest out. You will at least try to ensure he has a good time while learning things one step at a time without completely overwhelming him with things he cant all memorize at once. Thats the sort of experience I wish DCS could better mimic without an experienced friend looking over our shoulder.

 

and that's why they should learn to fly and play around with the FREE TF-51 etc. Not many do........., then come online and ask (Hard core server:music_whistling:) How do I shoot X, or how do it start X.

 

Many that buy the cool F/A-18, F-16 etc just want to be good at it, get frustrated. Nothing we can do a about that, the community has 1000s of helpful content online for X aircraft, we cannot help some that doesn't understand this will take some time and learning (repetition) to nail things down for X aircraft. Many also buy more then they can chew and want to be good at them all in a week.

[WinterH]

- RTFM

- Be a newbie without patience to RTFM, still start with one of the least noob friendly modules, suffer the consequences :)

 

DCS is DCS. It is as accessible as you are willing to put learning effort into it, and I am among those who think it shouldn't necessarily be more so.

[SmirkingGerbil]

 

. . .

 

DCS is a simulator. It simulates with some accuracy, highly complex military aircraft, with an associated sandbox that is generally empty until you fill it with your own content. It suits people that bring their own imagination, who are curious and like investigating how things work. It doesn't suit people that need a lot of content up front, or that dont have time for challenges, or dont see the point in those. The types of people that play DCS and enjoy it don't have a problem with content, they bring their imagination and will sit and work at it. Its not for everyone. Now stop going on about this and either play it or don't, no one is going to help you get over your own needy personality.

 

Well said, Mission Editor, and Combined Arms alone have created hundreds of hours of play for myself. All kinds of scenarios to practice, make mistakes, blow stuff up, rinse repeat. I think ME is one of the most unsung bang for the buck parts of DCS.

 

We are hitting a wall, the "500 page manual" is the problem. I don't even think he understands you are a content creator, and one of the folks that has put a lot of time into improving content and DCS.

 

Until some sort of awareness or acknowledgement is reached that reading 500 pages (ish) per module, watching You Tube videos for more than a few minutes, asking questions on the forums (not demands), and practice, practice, practice is required - we have all hit a wall. I hope he can get something from DCS eventually.

[Vertigo72]

spend a little time watching several of "Cap" Grim Reapers youtube videos.

Helped me a ton.

 

I couldnt agree more. If it werent for his videos, Id probably have given up too. I dont care if he is not the best or most knowledgeable pilot ever, he still does an excellent job giving noobs piece meal information in a concise and logical format and giving info that is extremely hard to find otherwise, and he even does so in an entertaining way, while also providing plenty of inspiration and motivation by showcasing his campaigns and challenges and silly stuff. Simply integrating his tutorial videos in to DCS so people dont have to stumble upon them by accident, would be massive leap forward in accessibility.

 

But the irony is that much of the community here will spit on him for doing that. Noobs shouldnt be helped like that, they shouldnt learn in small, easy, let alone enjoyable steps, they shouldnt be allowed "short cuts" they should RTFM, all of them, from cover to cover first, follow procedures as per natops, or you have an attitude problem and this game is not for you. Thats pretty much what Pikey is saying ad verbum. He gets to decide how people who spent their money supporting the game he plays, have to learn or enjoy it. Ive said it before, die hard DCS fans are EDs worst enemies.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Vertigo72

[David OC]

But the irony is that much of the community here will spit on him for doing that. Noobs shouldnt be helped like that, they shouldnt learn in small, easy, let alone enjoyable steps, they shouldnt be allowed "short cuts" they should RTFM, all of them, from cover to cover first, follow procedures as per natops, or you have an attitude problem and this game is not for you. Thats pretty much what Pikey is saying ad verbum. Ive said it before, die hard DCS fans are EDs worst enemies.

 

You can find all Cap's videos in the Guides section for each aircraft.

 

I play on a hard core server and

, not by the book. We do teach in other voice channels, but will not help people that wont help themselves at all.

 

Your blowing this out of perspective I think. ED knows there is a gap here, the ones that just want to blow things up and not learn what vor/tacan navigation is.

 

and that's called MAC.

 

I made a

, even simpler than Cap's vids do. For those who are thinking about trying it out, but think DCS is to hard to setup or there PC is not good enough. The videos are to get the ones that then understand what there really getting into.

[shu77]

Disclaimer, Im not a fan of campaigns and I dont do a lot of missions, but When I started Warthog in 2011 I found it hard, for the first time in 15 years I had to study I got a notebook and wrote notes from Wags missions because that was about all there was in the day and from the manual. It was hard and frustrating and I started to feel like I was working then I realised that actually flying a Warthog at CAT C is work for someone somewhere and then it started to click. When I needed to do my ITIL and PRINCE2 certifications in 2012 and some other post grad work the experience i got getting back into a study mindset from DCS really helped me.

 

So learning DCS I agree is its own reward. What I think is missing from DCS is any sort of 'Game' Its a sandbox, where you make your own fun, really more or less like minecraft. What its missing is the kind of scripted GUI mission that something like Gunship 2000 or Strike commander or Red Baron had. I get its not that kind of game, but I honestly think thats the big difference. Its hard to get into DCS, a lot of info is hidden in forums. It took me ages to figure out how to get into Open Beta because its not in the manual or the forum, I think GR actually helped me find the actual dos command to type, I mean in 2020 Seriously WTF? Theres no diagrams for half the airfields. As a Pilot when I go flying I know where my aircraft is, I drive there, I chat in the Hangar, I know which way the wind is going and I see the other traffic. In DCS I start in a spot Ive never been before, theres no ATIS, no friendly traffic or assets apart from what the mission might have. Half the time I cant find a diagram for the field Im on let alone find where I am on the field short of F-10, I cant easily figure the wind direction. I cant do a walk around, or have a meaningful dialogue with the ATC. I have to waste time clicking menus because in 2020 I cant use a decent GUI for radio comms. ED is wasting time replicating SRS when they should be implementing voice comms or atleast intelligent comms. Its these kind of things that kill the experience for me. Dont get me wrong I will keep flying and I have a great time on line, but thats more about the experience of flying with people that have a similar passion and learning from them than it is about DCS itself. Other sims have a campaign, or civil traffic or in the old days a story, a squadron that was transferred around the battlefield enemy aces and news clippings. This wont appeal to lots of people I know purists who like to fly will fly, but for me, if you want to attract new players you need to ask what is the story?

 

I have been watching a lot of DCS on youtube. The best videos are honestly Iain Christies . A lot are tutorials and have a place, just like ironhand once did I use Redkite, Wags, Spudknocker and even GR to learn things. GR's videos are fun, but its like watching a video of your mates. What I want to do more and more is play a sim based on hanging out in Iains world not in an empty sandbox where I dont know where my airframe is or what its doing.

[Vertigo72]

You can find all Cap's videos in the Guides section for each aircraft.

 

I went over there looking for the F14 and couldnt find it. Its hidden in the "third party module" section. No one finds it there, certainly no noob. The GR F14 thread has 2 responses and ~1000 views, for all I know half of which are crawling bots. This thread as twice as many views, go figure.

 

At the same time, virtually all of GR dozens of F14 youtube video's have 30+K views. Jabbers quick and dirty F14 startup tutorial has almost 100K views on youtube. Combined these two alone have more views than heatblurs own official cold &dark startup video embedded in the manual. Does that not tell you something? Maybe not everyone is in to reading natops before they can even take off, thats what it tells me. Apparently more people seem to want to learn gradually, "the easy way" that the "proper" way. Im sure that comes as a shock to some people here.

 

but will not help people that wont help themselves at all.

 

Of course. No one is asking you to. One on one teaching cant be the solution anyhow.

 

But there are lots of relatively simple ways for ED to help noobs and prevent lots of people from giving up on DCS prematurely.

 

Integrating a help function so you can hover over an instrument or panel and get some brief explanation, with an option to click through to see a related training video or mission on that subject. Some "office assistant" / instructor occasionally offering help. Taking too long to start up, do you need help ? Released that parking brake before INS alignment, did you know you shouldnt? You are taking off with no armament, or you didnt request take off permission from ATC, do you want to learn how to use comms menu ? First time on a carrier, or taking too long to hook up, do you need help? first time your RWR goes off, would you like to learn more?

 

But also giving new users manageable challenges and reward them for achieving it. Have some sort of career path. Learn how to start your jet, fuel and arm it, taxi to the beginning of the runway and hold. Applause, have a star. Take off, navigate using tacan to another airfield and land there. Have 50 points. Take off, find an enemy with your radar and get a lock on him. Have a star. Shoot down an unarmed transport plane with guns or training rounds. Drop some bombs on a practice target. Land on a carrier. Etc etc. Cant do the mission? Watch this tutorial. Accumulate enough stars and you get your wings. Your name on the cockpit. Get to choose your own helmet. Whatever. It sounds silly, but it works. It lets people learn in baby steps while keeping them both entertained and engaged and not facing what appears to be a brick wall.And you dont need to maintain that for everything, enough to get them started and show them its doable. Then throw the book at them if you have to. Or just let them have fun using 10% of what the sim or module can do.

 

Your blowing this out of perspective I think. ED knows there is a gap here, the ones that just want to blow things up and not learn what vor/tacan navigation is.

 

and that's called MAC.

 

Im not sure what MAC will be like. If its a completely separate product, IMO it will only decrease the inflow in to DCS, and I would worry. If its like FC3, that would be better, but still not really a solution IMO. The good thing about FC3 for a noob is the fact you get a lot of planes for cheap. And that matters to them when they cant yet know what they want and are more interested in superficial than deep experiences.

 

But the difference in flight model is almost non existent and pretty much irrelevant. Clickable cockpits are also not harder, they are easier and more intuitive than memorizing key bindings. If you dont want to learn tacan, there is the F10 map. I genuinely dont see much that MAC could deliver to noobs that couldnt be done as well or even better using DCS with better guidance and a few options that for the most part are already there (icons, map, easy comms etc). You may want to add a few more like easier radar and easier weapon configuration/targeting, but as long as those cheats dont enable a noob to do what an experienced pilot could not do in "full real", why do we want it to be a separate product, and not just enable those simplifications in DCS and let those people join MP servers using those options for as long they need or want them?

[draconus]

Applause, have a star. Take off, navigate using tacan to another airfield and land there. Have 50 points.

OMG! :doh:

You're clearly on crash course here. You're right about many things* but I still get a feeling you want to sell us this great shiny DCS future (with new payment model?) with players from all around the world, kids, wives, grandpas, all having fun in full fidelity aircraft. Doesn't it sound a bit dreamy to you? You really care so much about new users' experience? I mean once you're through with that all what's in it for you? Why not leave it to marketing people? Aren't you the one example and proof that with no additional changes you're still with DCS?

 

*You're right the stuff can be learned faster, easier and out of "proper" ways but most actually do it like that. Only later they learn how to do it properly. Just like you learn not to crash first, then make it a bit smoother landing, then end up in perfection with overhead patterns. You practice, practice, practice and read a lot or watch videos if you prefer. You start with simple things and learn more toward harder stuff. FC3 is good way to start but can be taken to high levels too. It's only imagination limiting you. I get that F-14 manual is very technical and videos are professional - but I expect nothing other from full fidelity module. What's TACAN? Google yourself. It's not the simulator job to tell you why the aircraft flies and what it is. FC3 manual will tell you a lot more than just explain gauges. That's a good way to start reading.

 

Of course you don't have to read whole manual at first. I like e-manuals because they're easy to search through. You read only what you need to and when you want to. If you dig in you'll end up with NATOPS or -1 eventually to get more out of it.

 

New users do and will find their way if only are willing to learn - it's unstoppable for someone that really wants it. We just don't like the new kids attitude - all here and now.

Look:

http://msfsx.s602.xrea.com/x/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/20190326_dcsop_gameplay-800x481.jpg

The whole list on the left side is available just as learning tools. You think we need more? DCS has all the tools and training you need.

 

And I don't agree that DCS lacks "game". There's plenty of missions and campaigns both paid DLC and free, most with a story, scripted more or less and some with great voiceovers. I do SP 90% of the time and I have my best DCS moments of enjoyment. From cold start, take off, flight of 1 or 2h to landing and shut down. The best feeling of succesful mission right there but it won't come easy. To get there you need to be combat ready - you know what it means? You have to know how to start your aircraft, how to taxi and take off (or launch), how to navigate to the AO, how to handle Wingmen, give them orders, how to employ A2A, air superiority, tactics, how to hide, attack, leave the AO, sometimes run away, how to A2G, not to get shot down, how handle engines, fuel, emergencies and how to get back and land and shut down. It takes some years to get there and be proficient - there's no way around and no, you don't get it by simple, easy, holding-hand and explain-me trainings with applause at the end. You work hard for that. And don't get me even started on MP... whole other world.

Edited July 7, 2020 by draconus

[Domethiuos]

At this point I'd say it's a safe bet that MAC has been cancelled ED hasn't mentioned it in a long time

[Silver_Dragon]

At this point I'd say it's a safe bet that MAC has been cancelled ED hasn't mentioned it in a long time

Mac was mentioned on 2020 and beyond newsletter on that year, and ED has not talk anything about "cancelations".

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4160206&postcount=232

 

Enviado desde mi RNE-L21 mediante Tapatalk

Edited July 9, 2020 by Silver_Dragon

[BIGNEWY]

At this point I'd say it's a safe bet that MAC has been cancelled ED hasn't mentioned it in a long time

 

MAC is in active development and we will share more news once we are ready.

 

thanks

[slowhand]

The best place for a noob to start is at the beginning. FC3 has a wide array of aircraft with great flight models and wpns with EZ keys to work with from there you can fly just about any type of mission /training that you need to get up to speed. Jumping into a HIFI Aircraft from the start is like info overload too much to think about and no time to enjoy the ride. Jumping into a noob server and or a training server is key for they are more forgiving than one that has a server full of full-time Hunter/killers that will always ends bad for the new guy...Every aircraft in FC3 can be in the air in just mins. If you jump in the Deep end of the pool and you can't swim that's on you but if you take the time to learn to swim the water is cool and deep and you will enjoy the ride choose the right aircraft at the right time. Also, learn to use comms most servers have discord or TeamSpeak that you can jump into and ask for help most of the noob/training will be more than glad to help. FC3 is the best buy for any NOOB!!! But you need to put the time in...

[SharpeXB]

OP

How do you have the time to write all these gigantic text walls of complaining and yet have no time for studying the module you bought?

 

Jeesh... sorry but you just don’t have any patience. You want everything spoon fed to you and aren’t willing to put in any of your own effort. If you can’t redirect yourself, get a grip on your attention span. Then DCS just isn’t the type of game for you.

 

DCS is actually more user friendly than other full fidelity flight sims. It has manuals written specifically for the game modules. And interactive training missions. Other flight sims don’t even have manuals or just have links to the real handbooks. I bought an Airbus 320 airliner for another sim and all it came with were links to the actual flight crew manuals which of course are not formatted for a single player to learn it as a game. But I still figured it out.

Edited July 10, 2020 by SharpeXB

[symowallo]

Good post and as someone returning back to sims from about 15 years absence, I totally agree with most of what the OP is saying. It's easy for us to forget what's difficult about a sim until we're in that boat. And I'm in it now...

 

I decided to start with the F/A-18, dabbled with the F-14 and now the F-16. All difficult models I suppose. Watched many, many YT videos to get myself up to speed - not so much from a "this is how you fly it" as that part is fairly straightforward as you pointed out (or known by most noobs already). It's the systems that makes it difficult, and the difficulty in finding decent documentation in the one place. The documentation itself is terrific, it's more the flow and orientation and the sheer volume of it that's a bit off-putting.

 

Also, the documentation doesn't necessarily provide "task oriented" information. A good example is the setting up of a HOTAS. You don't really know what commands to setup on the HOTAS without flying it, but working out what to put on the HOTAS requires a lot of testing (or watching videos). Anyway this is not a rant, more an observation as I'm in the middle of it right now.

 

I think this is a really healthy discussion/debate and it certainly has my interest.

Edited July 11, 2020 by symowallo

[Pac-Man]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4414035#post4414035

 

 

Hope it helps.