New SC case 3 mission

[markturner1960]

Hi, today I decided to put on my big boy pants and try out a case 3, after spending a lot of time doing case 1’s.....

 

However, I am finding it tricky to get established in the Marshall stack right at the start - ATC gives me mother’s Marshall radial as 287, 23 DME, angels 8. The mission starts me approx 15 miles from the radial , what is the best way to set myself up to enter the stack so my circuit is where it needs to be? Obviously, I could / can get there, but what’s the proper way?

 

And what is the expected approach time of 36 given meaning?

 

Thanks

[Thump]

Hi, today I decided to put on my big boy pants and try out a case 3, after spending a lot of time doing case 1’s.....

 

However, I am finding it tricky to get established in the Marshall stack right at the start - ATC gives me mother’s Marshall radial as 287, 23 DME, angels 8. The mission starts me approx 15 miles from the radial , what is the best way to set myself up to enter the stack so my circuit is where it needs to be? Obviously, I could / can get there, but what’s the proper way?

 

And what is the expected approach time of 36 given meaning?

 

Thanks

 

Hi Mark,

 

holding procedures

 

36 is your expected push time. Proceed inbound from the holding point 36 minutes after the hour (i.e. you enter holding at 2015 and will commence approach at 2036)

 

Hope this helps

 

Thump

Edited May 31, 2020 by Thump

[anfieldroad]

If you are given a radial 287 23nm and you are 15nm from the carrier first set up the TACAN, turn on TACAN mode on your HSI and change CSEL to 287 degrees radial.

 

Now you can see the radial from the TACAN climb to the marshall height and set autopilot to heading mode and baro alt to hold the marshall altitude and to take up a heading to intercept the outbound radial before 23nm. You want to be on radial 287 a couple of nm before the marshall point. Now on crossing the 23nm 287nm point you can call Marshall and advise you are established.

 

Now comes the holding pattern sector entry aspect of the marshall.

 

Take a look at the diagram of a holding pattern:

https://i2.wp.com/flightcrewguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Entry-into-the-holding.jpg

 

Make all these turns using autopilot heading mode.

 

You are entering as a left hand sector 2 offset so make a right turn 30 degrees to 317 degrees and hold it for 2 minutes. Then make a left hand turn to the reciprocal course of 107 degrees. You may need to adjust heading to roll out on the 107 radial. Now change the CSEL to 107 degrees which is the inbound radial - you should always select a radial TO not FROM as you want to be in COMMAND guidance to the Aid.

 

You should be making 1 minute 180 degree turns at each end of the hold and 2 x 2 minute legs = 6 mins per hold.

 

You may need to be creative to arrive at the 287 degree/23nm marshall bang on to your push time to depart the hold and descend 4000ft/min to platform height of 5000ft then 2000ft/min to 1200ft.

 

Depending on whether you are on the straight-in radial of the carrier heading or not you may need to enter a DME arc at 12nm to then intercept the final approach course.

[markturner1960]

Thanks both, In the mission case, I am pretty sure you start 50nm from the carrier, does make any difference to the geometry or timings of the above?

 

Once I have a route to follow, I think the principles will be much clearer and easy to apply in differing scenarios and distances etc......

 

Thanks!

[majapahit]

Shortest way to intercept the radial when already close to the boat is a straight heading to that radial perpendicularly.

In RL it is said the holding would mostly be offset from the BRC, but I don't think the Supercarrier ATC does that, it's straight in from the exit (mine was).

When commencing and in particular somewhat heavy, be sure to be not above the 250kt, or your air brake that you have out will not stop you from accelerating when you're -4000ft/min to 5000' platform.

[G B]

Thanks both, In the mission case, I am pretty sure you start 50nm from the carrier, does make any difference to the geometry or timings of the above?

 

Once I have a route to follow, I think the principles will be much clearer and easy to apply in differing scenarios and distances etc......

 

Thanks!

 

Reference the discussion we had about holding and timing in this thread:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=273436&page=3

 

Remember, you do NOT have to use any particular profile or pattern. Draw figure 8s. Draw the alphabet. It’s all legal. However, the pattern I drew in the thread above is by far the most common one in use in practice. Do what you need to do to get the job done. Just make sure you’re on your altitude. The biggest restrictions is that you cannot change altitude within 30 degrees of the holding side of the marshal radial, and ten degrees of the non holding side, unless you ask for permission from Marshal.

 

After receiving your marshal instructions you do NOT have to proceed direct to the Marshal fix. You do not need to do a civilian type entry (direct, teardrop, parallel). In fact, I don’t think I don’t know of anyone that ever did unless they wanted to for fun. I certainly never did. It’s not required or expected. Proceed to wherever you need to go to intercept your profile.

[markturner1960]

OK, Thanks.....one last question, direction of stack rotation, always anticlockwise? IE same as the overhead stack ?

 

I am going to do some practicing.....

[majapahit]

OK, Thanks.....one last question, direction of stack rotation, always anticlockwise? IE same as the overhead stack ?

 

I am going to do some practicing.....

Civil holds are turn left, but if your read GB post you can do the hold up side down.

 

EDIT: this is not correct, civil are right hand turns (I'm getting old)

Edited June 2, 2020 by majapahit

[G B]

OK, Thanks.....one last question, direction of stack rotation, always anticlockwise? IE same as the overhead stack ?

 

I am going to do some practicing.....

 

Left turns are standard. I don’t advise you do figure 8s upside down, but I’m explaining that it’s legal. I’m trying to explain that you don’t have restrictive constraints in how you do this.

 

Use left turns as the standard (because they are), and use some type of race track profile like the one I drew. If you need to deviate to fix some kind of mistake, then do so however you need to...on your altitude.

[G B]

Civil holds are turn left, but if your read GB post you can do the hold up side down.

 

See above. Use a “standard” pattern but Do not feel constrained by it. If you need to deviate....If you need to turn right, or do a random 360, or something else to help your situation, that is perfectly allowed (and happens IRL).

Edited June 1, 2020 by G B

[Thump]

Civil holds are turn left, but if your read GB post you can do the hold up side down.

 

Standard AIM holds for civil aviation are right turns but as GB has said, it doesn't really matter for this situation (TIL).

[G B]

Standard AIM holds for civil aviation are right turns but as GB has said, it doesn't really matter for this situation (TIL).

 

Correct. Civil=right is standard. Navy=left is standard.

[markturner1960]

Ok, Does that not mean you would have jets possibly going in differing directions in the stack? Surely, it’s safer and more sensible that the stack has a designated side (of the radial) and direction of movement within? I may have understood this wrong, but what GB is saying is that you can enter from any direction you like, go round in any direction you like, as long as you are at the correct height and arrive at your push point at the required time?

 

Thanks

[M1Combat]

Surely, it’s safer and more sensible that the stack has a designated side

 

I assume they feel like people can maintain their assigned altitude... :)

[G B]

Ok, Does that not mean you would have jets possibly going in differing directions in the stack? Surely, it’s safer and more sensible that the stack has a designated side (of the radial) and direction of movement within? I may have understood this wrong, but what GB is saying is that you can enter from any direction you like, go round in any direction you like, as long as you are at the correct height and arrive at your push point at the required time?

 

Thanks

 

On the radial, the standard pattern is left hand turns. The “protected side” of the radial is the side with the pattern on it. HOWEVER, it is a moot point, because as said in the post above, you are deconflicted by altitude. That is why planes can go to any place they want at any direction they want at any time.

[=4c=Nikola]

As I understood, you can do whatever you want on assigned altitude inside 30 degrees of holding radial on protected side and 10 degrees of holding radial on the other side. Correct?

[G B]

As I understood, you can do whatever you want on assigned altitude inside 30 degrees of holding radial on protected side and 10 degrees of holding radial on the other side. Correct?

 

No. You can do whatever you want laterally regardless of where you are (regardless of whether or not you’re inside or outside those radials). The rule is that you can’t change altitude within those radials, unless you ask for and get permission from Marshal.

[markturner1960]

Ok, good, I did understand correctly then! As that’s not at all obvious in any of the briefs , or indeed any of the tutorials for the case 3, perhaps this information should be updated....

Because when trying for the first time, this makes a huge difference in working out where you need to go and how to plan that.

 

Presumably IRL, a flight would follow the leads decided route and direction, rather than just splitting up and going off in various directions? And obviously in most scenarios, there is one intersection and route that would be the most expedient, so that would be the one decided and flown, regardless of other options...?

Edited June 2, 2020 by markturner1960

[markturner1960]

Hi Mark,

 

holding procedures

 

36 is your expected push time. Proceed inbound from the holding point 36 minutes after the hour (i.e. you enter holding at 2015 and will commence approach at 2036)

 

Hope this helps

 

Thump

 

So You would need to do some quick figuring out, as soon as you get the assigned push time, working back from 36 in 6 minute blocks to see where you needed to be entering the stack, to time it nicely so that your last hold circuit spits you out at the right time and place.....got it

 

Presumably, ATC plan this themselves in some way, from your position and speed / angels when you check in?

[G B]

So You would need to do some quick figuring out, as soon as you get the assigned push time, working back from 36 in 6 minute blocks to see where you needed to be entering the stack, to time it nicely so that your last hold circuit spits you out at the right time and place.....got it

 

Presumably, ATC plan this themselves in some way, from your position and speed / angels when you check in?

 

ATC does not. The time is based on when they need you on deck. More specifically, when they need the first aircraft on deck (the one at 6k). He gets his push time based on that. Everybody else gets theirs one minute apart after that.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Thanks for all the great info GB.

 

Slightly academic at the moment as marshal is around BRC/FB, but is there a prescribed method to make the turn from assigned radial to FB when marshal is say 30 degrees off? e.g. turn so many degrees on reaching platform (or other point in the approach).

[G B]

Thanks for all the great info GB.

 

Slightly academic at the moment as marshal is around BRC/FB, but is there a prescribed method to make the turn from assigned radial to FB when marshal is say 30 degrees off? e.g. turn so many degrees on reaching platform (or other point in the approach).

 

At 20 DME:

 

If within 10 radials of the FB, slime it over gradually

If greater than 10 radials of the FB, correct 30 degrees towards the final bearing. If you are not going to be able to intercept the final bearing by 12 miles, join the 12 mile DME arc and then arc to the final bearing.

 

Usually the offset isn’t big enough to cause and arc but it could happen.

 

Beware: Murphy’s Law kicks in at 20 DME. Usually here, your RADALT set at 5k is going off, as you, call platform, as you get handed off to approach, as you correct to final bearing. A busy time indeed.

[G B]

Ok, good, I did understand correctly then! As that’s not at all obvious in any of the briefs , or indeed any of the tutorials for the case 3, perhaps this information should be updated....

Because when trying for the first time, this makes a huge difference in working out where you need to go and how to plan that.

 

Presumably IRL, a flight would follow the leads decided route and direction, rather than just splitting up and going off in various directions? And obviously in most scenarios, there is one intersection and route that would be the most expedient, so that would be the one decided and flown, regardless of other options...?

 

IRL, each aircraft will receive their holding instructions. After that, they can split up immediately, but more often, the lead will fly as he chooses while changing to his altitude, and the wingman will just level off early at his altitude (if descending from above) or late (if climbing from below). Once one of them levels off, they are completely split.

 

I think you may be overthinking this.

 

Instructions are passed, pilots draw their little profile, and then they do whatever they need to do in terms of flight path and speed to try to join that profile.

[AG-51_Sabot]

G.B. is 250 KIAS the general accepted pattern hold in Case III?

[G B]

G.B. is 250 KIAS the general accepted pattern hold in Case III?

 

Start here.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4333568#post4333568