not realistic Air to Air refuelling

[g2k]

Thank you Harker. Getting these AAR missions working and learning how to use other peoples missions on DCS have opened up a whole new world for me. 

[Harker]

1 hour ago, g2k said:

Thank you Harker. Getting these AAR missions working and learning how to use other peoples missions on DCS have opened up a whole new world for me. 

Happy I could help!

[KittyVCAW-1]

This thread is funny. I always stare at the basket, I didn't change any of my curves once, I learned on the S-3, I stare thru the HUD the entire time. I don't have any issue with AAR at all. I woke up an hour early for work everyday for a week and practiced. The first day I just tried holding position behind the tanker. Then worked on just hitting the basket not worrying about how long I styed connected. Then try to stay connected for 10 seconds, ect. By Friday I could hit the basket and top off every time, baby steps. Two years later I can hit the basket inverted and top off. There is nothing to this except to practice and don't get frustrated. I also try to hit the tanker and do one trap everyday (w. some exceptions occasionally) just to keep the skills from deteriorating, because they will if you don't use them.

[lmp]

4 hours ago, KittyVCAW-1 said:

This thread is funny. I always stare at the basket, I didn't change any of my curves once, I learned on the S-3, I stare thru the HUD the entire time.

 

I guess it's one of those things were you have to figure out what works for you. I look at the basket when I'm connecting, then at the tanker once I'm plugged in.  I don't find the S-3 any more or less difficult than the other tankers. I also prefer a fairly slow approach (~1kts difference). I think a lot of the posters put too much emphasis on fairly unimportant details. It all comes down to knowing where you have to be (figuring out the proper sight picture) and then not overcorrecting. The rest is just a bunch of mind tricks to help you along the way. Go ahead and try them, but don't treat any of them as gospel.

[jetsimace]

I am still frustrated with air refueling: hitting the basket is really hard while probe and basket get separated again soooooooooo easily.
Thanks for all the helpful and well-intended hints guys, but I am convinced that there should be an easy option e.g. providing a larger hit zone and more forgiving/stable connection between probe and basket. If someone wants it done the hard way, well then do it and practice (a lot), but I fully support what Meyomyx said.
If it would be as difficult in real life as it is in DCS, there would e.g. be a lot more accidents with jets running out of fuel or like in Palomeras 1966...

[Hammer1-1]

Honestly its not all that hard to keep in the basket. Then again, Ive had plenty of practice over the years. Like everything, it takes muscle memory time to learn and lots of practice flying formations. One day itll just "click" and itll be easier from then on. Dont give up on it, just keep trying. And there technically is an easy mode designed for a2a refueling as the basket and probe are scripted to connect with each other when you get in the proper parameters. IRL that basket wobbles, bobs and weaves all over the place, so yeah we already have it easy.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[jetsimace]

For me it is too difficult, there's no need to discuss that (and I'm not the only one). Your statement "...Over the years..." tells it all...I don't have that much time or do not want to invest that much. For air refueling in a game - even if it's a simulator and even for a study sim like DCS - this huge amount of training should not be required. If it would be that hard in real life then pilots would do nothing else.
I am not asking for a huge simplification, just an option for a liiiiitle simplification or more forgiveness during this procedure.

[Hammer1-1]

You act like I have over 10,000 hours of flight experience. Really I have closer to 60 hours in the hornet in my logbook, and closer to another 40 online. Out of all my flight hours, probably only 35-40 times have I actually tanked. Dont make it sound impossible to learn. Not going to lie, at first it IS a challenge. The more you try, the more it stays the same. Thats all there is to it. You may disagree with me, but keep trying. You think its hard in the hornet? Try it in the Harrier. Practice in the Su-33; thats how I learned. Fly in the Aerobatics Online server and learn formation with other people. Instead of making it an ordeal, have fun instead. Fly formation with people who are tanking at the same time; when you make a game out of it, it becomes fun! Be patient and have fun.

[Hammer1-1]

Also, if you are flying with turbulence on then maybe try turning it off and practicing in servers with it disabled or in single player. Wake turbulence is a whole different animal and requires you to approach the tanker from a different angle, and I can see that being a big issue with new joins tanking for the first time. Believe me when I tell you that it helps having turbulence disabled that it makes it way easier to tank. When you finally get comfy with it, turn it back on and learn some more.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[FADEC]

Full disclaimer, I have never conducted In Air Refueling in a real Jet, I have conducted Helicopter Air to Air Refueling (HAAR) a ton, in an airframe that has the refueling probe inside the rotor disk.  The first day of training on the Tanker wasn’t even allowed to try and get on the basket just move from the observation position to a good astern position maintain it, then back to the observation position, rinse and repeat for an hour or so.  The second day I was allowed to try and get on the basket, some success and lots of misses.  Third day I could stay on the basket in straight and level flight, but turns kicked my ass. Fourth day had it figured out, then moved to NVG HAAR training.  Same training plan results were better, I think HAAR at night is way easier, less thermals, and the baskets tends to sit still a bet better. That was over 10 years ago here are my HAAR life lessons,
1.)     It is the most humbling task there is even the “Sky God” has a bad night and can’t get on the basket it happens.
2.)    ALWAYS get stable in the Astern Position (Pre-Contact in the game) take a breath then make your movement to contact.
3.)    “Never look at the basket” yeah okay, be honest.  In the astern position its 90% references, 10% basket. Once you start your movement to contact percentages will shift, I normally ended up at 50-50, unless it was a really turbulent night then the last 3 or 4 feet its 10% references 90% basket.
4.)    Once you are one, watch the slack in hose since every A/C has a different reel response (doesn’t apply in the game since the hoses are missing the markings.)
5.)    Don’t choke the chicken, if you are strangling the stick, you are probably over-controlling the A/C.  As I became an instructor, I would have a student hold a piece of rolled up paper between their hand and cyclic.  
6.)    Have a mantra, something you repeat in your mind to keep yourself calm. Calm mind equals calm control inputs.
To sum it up, in air refueling is hard, practice it.  There have been missions I have flown, where I was more worried about the HAAR than I was about the INFIL or the EXFIL. 

[Ziptie]

8 hours ago, jetsimace said:

I am still frustrated with air refueling: hitting the basket is really hard while probe and basket get separated again soooooooooo easily.
Thanks for all the helpful and well-intended hints guys, but I am convinced that there should be an easy option e.g. providing a larger hit zone and more forgiving/stable connection between probe and basket. If someone wants it done the hard way, well then do it and practice (a lot), but I fully support what Meyomyx said.
If it would be as difficult in real life as it is in DCS, there would e.g. be a lot more accidents with jets running out of fuel or like in Palomeras 1966...

 

It can be difficult.  No question.

A few things:

 

1.  In regards to 'separating so easily' - the key to minimize this potential is to create some slack in the fuel line by created a curve, which is done by moving a little closer and a little higher once you have contacted the drogue.

 

2.  In regards to the 'larger hit zone' - the Hornet actually does have a larger hit zone and more forgiving connection of the probe and drogue.  Proof of this is the Tomcat.  The Tomcat is much more sensitive and has a much smaller 'window' for the probe to drogue connection - and you can lose contact so much easier, compared to the Hornet.

 

3.  In real life, you have much more "external effects" when AAR.  For one, the drogue will float when extended - in DCS is stays in a static position in relation to the tanker wing (until you make contact).  The drogue will bounce/flutter from turbulence.  Also, when you contact the drogue in real life - there is a 'shock' that goes through the hose (which you can see in numerous videos on YouTube if you were so inclined).

 

Bottom line - it takes practice, like all other things in DCS.

 

As for the "make it easier" bit - not sure if game mode helps in this aspect or not - disclaimer I've never used game mode.  Is there an unlimited fuel option to check somewhere in the options menu?  Could be another way to get around the issue - this would allow you to not worry about running out of fuel when trying to make contact (or allow you to complete missions).

 

If you are trying to contact the left drogue of the tanker - I recommend trying to fly the '10' into the opening of the pod where the drogue extends from (this is the right 10 on the pitch ladder, positive rate of climb 10 number - not the descent rate of 10 number).  This gives a better distance reference and keeps your eyes from focusing on the drogue and probe.  Once you have contact, just get that little bit of slack in the fuel line and pick a reference point on the wing of the tanker to maintain your distance to.  This is just formation flying once you've got contact.  Speaking of formation flying - that is arguably the best practice you can get, in preparation for AAR.

 

Small constant movements of the throttle and stick (this actually helps to mitigate PIO's) and try to lighten your grip on the stick and throttle.  Don't forget to breathe.  This may sound silly, but I assure you it isn't at all - and is very good 'basic' advice.

Stay with it, it can be frustrating at first but is very satisfying once you've had a complete transfer - and it will get easier and easier.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Ziptie