not realistic Air to Air refuelling

[Ahmed]

Don't fly "through the HUD". Look out, learn the picture you want to see, learn the cues to perceive relative 3d motion on a flat screen, and keep practicing. It is actually relatively easy in the DCS F18. Definitely don't try to fly the numbers in your HUD, that's one of the most common flightsim mistakes and will hinder both your AAR and your formation flying.

 

An additional tip would be to practice flying formation with the tanker, both in the observation area and near the contact position, that will help you with all the above.

[Gruman]

I always struggled with air to air refuelling, i could do it, but i found my limitation in my HOTAS.

After i switched to VR, i put two weeks into touch controllers and in my opinion, the sensory change in using the touch controllers is in my opinion hands down easier.

The throttle response is smoother and finer, and i can change up a knot or down a know, with more accuracy, and using the VR stick just feel more precise.

 

Maybe my old Warthog had seen better days, or my deadzones were too large, but i still struggle with my HOTAS now, and use touch controls only with the F-18, F-16, and Huey.

 

Old Warthog? Deadzone? Why do you feel the need to set a deadzone on this controller? Only thing you need a Deadzone for is the terrible slew controller.

A tiny bit of a curve for Pitch and Roll helps with precision arround 0, but this depends if you have the stick extended.

 

TrackIR AAR hurts my neck. Is doable on all airframes, but I cramp up for some wierd reason. VR is much more relaxed and full refuel in one go is the regular thing for me.

No daily training needed IMHO. Just put in your regular flightplan, try hook up once or twice and continue your mission. Try to stay relaxed as possible and only use your fingertips for your joystick.

[Harker]

No daily training needed IMHO. Just put in your regular flightplan, try hook up once or twice and continue your mission.

That's good advice. I probably do two or three AARs per week on average and all of them during missions. I've also gone through weeks without AAR.

 

Don't make it into a huge deal, try to do it as part of your mission, without it being necessary. It'll be much less stressful and frustrating, because it's not the sole focus of the flight.

[t1mb0b]

OT, but to correct your misinformation (Quote from DCS Website): Digital Combat Simulator World (DCS World) 2.5 is a free-to-play digital battlefield game.

 

a bit pedantic when, in the very next paragraph 'Our dream is to offer the most authentic and realistic simulation of military aircraft,'

The clue is in the name Digital Combat Simulator

[Kocrachon]

Theres no point in making a cheat mode to make it easier. The issue is not "Its too hard". The issue is, you need to find the technique that works for you.

 

At the end of the day, AAR is just formation flying. And formation flying comes down 90% to speed control. Your issue is you are likely making too large of adjustments either in throttle or in stick. These are basic flying principals.

 

It took me a few years to AAR but I found out the one key thing that made a huge difference for me. Sensitivity Curves. Tweaking throttle and stick curves so that your large movements on the stick are compensated for helps prevent you from over correcting. Also remember, you are trying to make the identical speed of the tanker. So don't come in too hot (although the drogue is a bit more forgivable for that, that the boom).

 

Here is what worked for me, but might not be "Realistic" Before you even connect, trying to fly in formation with the tanker, find out what its speed is, so that way when you connect, you can pay attention to your HUD speed and try to stay on top of it, giving and reducing little bits at a time to hold that speed. Once you are connected, its about tiny tiny adjustments to keep it balanced.

 

So tl;dr, set sensitivity curves, small adjustments, and fly in formation with the tanker before connecting.

 

Without refuelling, the F18 is very limited in what it can do.

 

This also gives me a bit of impression that you need to look more into flight dynamics. A centerline bag on an F-18 gives you enough fuel to do a round trip on most missions if you are not doing CAP. You need to look at the FPAS page, look at your fuel consumption. The F-18 has longer legs than you realize, as long as you are flying for optimized fuel performance. Thats typically in the 25k-35k, mach .75-.8 speed range. The thing will sip gas if you follow FPAS recommendation, able to make a 700nm trip.

 

You also need to not bring heavy, unrealistic loadouts. If you are bringing 8 JSOWs, yeah, you are not gonna get far, thats why they don't do that in real life, its terrible aerodynamics. Bring realistic loadouts and use FPAS to make sure you are using efficient fuel and you can coast far. In real life its more fuel efficient to bring 2 F-18s with 4 JSOWS each vs 1 F-18 with 8 JSOWs because the amount of drag is extreme and actually severely limits fuel efficeny.

 

Also, afterburner should be limited. Even when climbing to altitude, you should not be burning. Do not use afterburner for basic flight after a carrier take off.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Kocrachon

[Harker]

A centerline bag on an F-18 gives you enough fuel to do a round trip on most missions if you are not doing CAP. You need to look at the FPAS page, look at your fuel consumption. The F-18 has longer legs than you realize, as long as you are flying for optimized fuel performance. Thats typically in the 25k-35k, mach .75-.8 speed range. The thing will sip gas if you follow FPAS recommendation, able to make a 700nm trip.

 

You also need to not bring heavy, unrealistic loadouts. If you are bringing 8 JSOWs, yeah, you are not gonna get far, thats why they don't do that in real life, its terrible aerodynamics. Bring realistic loadouts and use FPAS to make sure you are using efficient fuel and you can coast far. In real life its more fuel efficient to bring 2 F-18s with 4 JSOWS each vs 1 F-18 with 8 JSOWs because the amount of drag is extreme and actually severely limits fuel efficeny.

I partially agree. For most missions a DCS player will do, AAR is not a strict requirement, unless you want to have a good amount of time on station and even like that, a double ugly will get you far. At least far enough to drop the munitions you're carrying, which won't be too many if you selected a realistic loadout (4-5 drops max). In our squadron, experienced pilots with the F-18 consistently hit Bingo later than our less experienced F-14 pilots do, both aircraft carrying two bags.

 

Where AAR does come into play though, is when things don't go as expected and there are either delays or emergencies requiring to either use the AB (such as being intercepted) or requiring you to stay airborne for longer, such as an urgent call for a CAS strafing run or two, boltering a couple of times on the carrier or (a) player(s) before you taking too long to land, extending your time spent holding above the carrier. As an example, we had a PvE turned PvP mission a couple of weeks ago, where after we started to RTB, two bogies (other players) entered friendly airspace and we were the only aircraft close by, so we got assigned to intercept and ID them. After a few ignored signals and challenges, we had to force them out and that took some AB use. We RTB'd with less than 2,000 lbs and needed to hit the tanker, if we were to safely land on the carrier. Of course, no matter the aircraft, AAR would probably be needed at this point anyway.

[StevanJ]

 

Old Warthog? Deadzone? Why do you feel the need to set a deadzone on this controller? Only thing you need a Deadzone for is the terrible slew controller.

A tiny bit of a curve for Pitch and Roll helps with precision arround 0, but this depends if you have the stick extended.

 

TrackIR AAR hurts my neck. Is doable on all airframes, but I cramp up for some wierd reason. VR is much more relaxed and full refuel in one go is the regular thing for me.

No daily training needed IMHO. Just put in your regular flightplan, try hook up once or twice and continue your mission. Try to stay relaxed as possible and only use your fingertips for your joystick.

 

I dont use a deadzone in when i fly in VR with the Touch Controls..

The warthog just didnt feel right after i started to use the touch controls, I still use the HOTAS for the Harrier, But after using VR touch controls, its more difficult..

[Ziptie]

 

I dont use a deadzone in when i fly in VR with the Touch Controls..

The warthog just didnt feel right after i started to use the touch controls, I still use the HOTAS for the Harrier, But after using VR touch controls, its more difficult..

 

I tried the Touch controllers once - it was enough of an experience for me to never try them again. No way they can compete with a good HOTAS. Happy to keep using my TMWH. I don't use a deadzone either, used to use a curve but also removed that - prefer the 1:1. Found that I was "losing" some performance with having curves.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

[StevanJ]

 

I tried the Touch controllers once - it was enough of an experience for me to never try them again. No way they can compete with a good HOTAS. Happy to keep using my TMWH. I don't use a deadzone either, used to use a curve but also removed that - prefer the 1:1. Found that I was "losing" some performance with having curves.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

 

I can appreciate what youre saying, I think its the skill and achievement factor, anyone can air-to-air with a HOTAS after an hour of practice, but not everyone can do it with the Touch Controls, I like that elitism and now ill argue that a HOTAS cant compete with the touch controllers :thumbup:..

When ive my headset on, i just feel totally immersed.. But i can understand its not for everyone..:pilotfly:

[Ziptie]

I like that elitism and now ill argue that a HOTAS cant compete with the touch controllers

 

How do you deal with the lack of resistance / limitations of movement when using the touch controllers, if you don't mind me asking?

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

[StevanJ]

Honestly? I have a Logi G940, and had a Warthog, the feedback from VR is more like a 'sense', than a feel..

There's a deeper connection to the aircraft..

 

If I fly the the F18 with my HOTAS, i feel like im in control of a machine, if I use the Touch Controls- I feel like 'i am' the machine..

Then there's the huey, which is magical..

 

There's a two week discipline,if you put your HOTAS away and use the touch controls for two weeks, you'll not go back..

If you 'give it a go' for a couple of days, you'll end up going back to your HOTAS.

 

I argued that my warthog, was miles better than touch controls, until I gave it two weeks, and air to air refuelled with my touch controls.

 

Everyone with VR has the controls, but no-one can air to air with them..

 

Plus, I've no more cables around my desk, which always annoyed me.

 

[Ziptie]

Honestly? I have a Logi G940, and had a Warthog, the feedback from VR is more like a 'sense', than a feel..

There's a deeper connection to the aircraft..

 

If I fly the the F18 with my HOTAS, i feel like im in control of a machine, if I use the Touch Controls- I feel like 'i am' the machine..

Then there's the huey, which is magical..

 

There's a two week discipline,if you put your HOTAS away and use the touch controls for two weeks, you'll not go back..

If you 'give it a go' for a couple of days, you'll end up going back to your HOTAS.

 

I argued that my warthog, was miles better than touch controls, until I gave it two weeks, and air to air refuelled with my touch controls.

 

Everyone with VR has the controls, but no-one can air to air with them..

 

Plus, I've no more cables around my desk, which always annoyed me.

 

Cool, yeah I'm not going to change but can understand your position. I also use a racing / flight simulator, so I don't have wires running everywhere - they are all neatly routed and contained. Just unplug them from the PC and you have take the simulator to another location ( in house or to another if you wish). Thanks for the info, but I will stick with having all the buttons on the HOTAS and leave the touch controllers collecting dust - not my cup of tea.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

[g2k]

On 5/24/2020 at 8:16 AM, t1mb0b said:

Not everything in life is easy or handed to us on a plate, and quite rightly.

Practice more, watch youtubes on it, or stop playing DCS.

It's a SIM not a PlayStation game.

Fair comment, but in real life is refueling 3x more difficult than night traps? I think we all know the answer. 
 

[ruddy122]

Like all things AAR is about patience small movements and being stable

A British exchange guy once told me AAR is more about a formation position and if you look and focus on the basket you will miss


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jross194]

Has anyone found a parameter (I assume in a lua file, somewhere) that defines the ‘window’ where the basket ‘grabs’ the probe? Seems it is automatic at a point about where the tip of the probe == radius of the basket.

 

I ask because, well, it’s starting to bug me - I want to be required to stick the thing thing into the thing, not have it reach out and grab…my thing (disconcerting almost). I’m sure the logic will always ‘grab’ it but I want to shrink this value.

 

Googling hasn’t been much help. Grepping the lua files all I find, for each acft, is this entry:

air_refuel_receptacle_pos = {6.731, 0.825, 0.492},

 

I can’t find an option for “Hard/Easy Refueling” in the UI either - I see it mentioned every now and then. Perhaps it’s more people requesting an “Easy” mode?

[wilbur81]

For what it's worth: The basket/hose physics on the S-3 are really pretty bad. Don't learn on the S-3... learn on the C-130 and KC-135's hose/baskets, they're much easier.

[g2k]

Interesting!

 

Trouble is that the only refueling mission on my DCS is the S-3.  How can I find the KC135 or C-130?

Edited December 22, 2020 by g2k

[Ziptie]

5 hours ago, g2k said:

Interesting!

 

Trouble is that the only refueling mission on my DCS is the S-3.  How can I find the KC135 or C-130?

 

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3305702/

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3300687/

 

Found those with just a quick search via the user download page of ED's website.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

[Hammer1-1]

Finesse is the key to everything that requires finesse. If your joystick has some sticky spots where it takes a little more force to go past, you're going to have problems. Also helps to fly with your fingertips and not death gripping your joystick because that aggression translates into aggressive movements. All of that also applies to your throttles - make them as smooth as possible physically. If you have to take it apart and grease some moving parts, do so. Place your joystick in a position where its comfortable, or make it as comfortable for you to use it if you cant place it exactly where you want it. Its honestly not all that hard to refuel in the Hornet as it just takes patience and a gentle touch.

On 12/15/2020 at 10:22 AM, wilbur81 said:

For what it's worth: The basket/hose physics on the S-3 are really pretty bad. Don't learn on the S-3... learn on the C-130 and KC-135's hose/baskets, they're much easier.

Its the hardest thing to learn on, probably not a bad idea to start from there. If you can do the hard things first, the rest is easy. I will say that its not much harder than using the KC130s.

[Shimmergloom667]

13 hours ago, g2k said:

Interesting!

 

Trouble is that the only refueling mission on my DCS is the S-3.  How can I find the KC135 or C-130?

 

 

Also that would be an excellent time to look at the Mission Editor. Setting up a refuel training takes all of 5 minutes.

[g2k]

20 hours ago, Ziptie said:

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3305702/

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3300687/

 

Found those with just a quick search via the user download page of ED's website.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ziptie

Thanks. I really need to step outside this little training box I’m utilizing on DCS. 

[g2k]

Thanks 667. Yeah, I really need to start learning to use more of these tools at my finger tips. Time for a bit of home work.  I’m sure it’s not that hard. If so, there is lots of good info here to get me pointed in the right direction. 

[GazAce]

1 hour ago, g2k said:

Thanks 667. Yeah, I really need to start learning to use more of these tools at my finger tips. Time for a bit of home work.  I’m sure it’s not that hard. If so, there is lots of good info here to get me pointed in the right direction. 

Hey there g2k. I understand your frustration. AAR is one of the most irritating & annoying tasks to learn but trust me, once you get a few done it becomes much easier. I read quite a few of the tips peeps here have been giving you & they're all correct in one way or another. Although I didn't see anything about "Wake Turbulence", make sure this setting is OFF in your Options, just until you get a few under belt & also when learning your AAR.. if you can set the wind to zero in the ME. I have a Warthog throttle too & just recently had my first night AAR which you will also eventually accomplish as well. Use little increments of more & less throttle & if you want to look at the basket LOOK at the damn thing lol. Remember.. once connected what your trying do to is anticipate the Tanker moving away from you & you moving too close & that's when you make your little adjustments that split second ahead to keep yourself connected with the basket. Just relax with it & don't tense up & finally make sure you hear "Clear Contact" so you are able to hook up with the basket. Like I said, once you get a few nailed, you'll be looking forward to performing them & enjoying it. Cheers GA 

[g2k]

16 hours ago, g2k said:

Thanks. I really need to step outside this little training box I’m utilizing on DCS. 

 

 

 

 

Keep getting this message.  I will do some learning..

[Harker]

1 hour ago, g2k said:

Keep getting this message.  I will do some learning..

I assume you tried to open the miz file in Windows. You need to run DCS, go in the Mission Editor, select Load mission, then navigate to the directory of the miz file and finally select it. If it is a mission of the default game files, you probably won't be able to save the changes, so just select File->Save As and select the My Missions option from the top of the side list.

I can't help much more because I'm not on my pc right now and won't be for a few days, but you get the idea, I hope.