[REPORTED] F-16 Detection Range

[Krippz]

Attached is a screenshot and track of me being able to track and lock a transport aircraft at over 110 miles. Fighter sized targets can be detected at ranges upwards of 80 miles and tracked at 70 miles. This seems implausible for a radar of the F-16's size and power.

F16_Detection_Range.trk

[Airhunter]

It is. The APG-68v5 they modelled performs like an AESA. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337985199_On_the_use_of_AESA_Active_Electronically_Scanned_Array_Radar_and_IRST_InfraRed_SearchTrack_System_to_Detect_and_Track_Low_Observable_Threats

 

You shouldnt be able to pick up a 29 or another 16 past about 40nm.

[Santi871]

Instead of instantly dismissing this bug as speculation, it would be great to get some insight from ED's side into why the detection ranges for the Viper (and Hornet) are so much greater than expected values.

 

As a note, it's highly doubtful that ED has reliable sources on detailed detection ranges on the APG-68 and 73, so it would be great to hear on what grounds these approximations are being made. As an example to follow, Chizh on the russian side of the forum does engage in such discussions and provides insight, so it would be nice to see something similar over here.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Santi871

[NineLine]

Instead of instantly dismissing this bug as speculation

 

We can only mark it as speculation as the reporter hasn't given anything to prove that it is not just speculation.

 

As well, let's keep the comments on the topic of the bug, please. If someone has information to share on it, please post. Thanks.

 

As you might guess this information is very classified, as well it is also highly dependant on target closure rate, target RCS, target aspect, look down vs lookup, and more. It would be impossible to state one single value for it.

Edited May 11, 2020 by NineLine

[Krippz]

We can only mark it as speculation as the reporter hasn't given anything to prove that it is not just speculation.

 

Wouldn't that be in violation of forum rule 1.16?

 

Okay I'll cite wikipedia: Range for 5m2 aerial target is 105 km

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/APG-68

[NineLine]

If you can prove the source is legally shareable, then post the link and the info.

 

If you are unsure, PM it to me or the team.

 

Wikipedia has its own issues, but I can pass that along.

[Krippz]

If you can prove the source is legally shareable, then post the link and the info.

 

If you are unsure, PM it to me or the team.

 

Wikipedia has its own issues, but I can pass that along.

 

That's fair. There's at least one WSO and one pilot in the community that have stated that the detection ranges are optimistic. Thanks for passing it along.

[NineLine]

That's fair. There's at least one WSO and one pilot in the community that have stated that the detection ranges are optimistic. Thanks for passing it along.

 

Yeah, even that could be taken many ways, like its possible in the best situation. But we will keep our eyes out for better info, as can everyone else for sure.

[Vatikus]

There is no (V)5, but one can calculate (V)9 which is better performer:

https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/08.airborne/karte024.en.html

[Vatikus]

https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=391

 

66V2 is comparable to 68V5 (also close enough with my previous link in post above)... it states look up and look down ranges for fighter size target..

 

this is without getting into "sensitive" info :)

[joelsi]

The detection and tracking distances demonstrated by Krippz seem like something the APG-68v5 shouldn't be able to do based on pretty much all the range claims I've seen.

[GGTharos]

Yeah, even that could be taken many ways, like its possible in the best situation. But we will keep our eyes out for better info, as can everyone else for sure.

 

Radar ranges depend on all the stuff you said. You can also plug your best (And educated) guesses into a range equation calculator and realize that this thing is over-performing badly.

 

But let's make a well informed estimation instead of merely educated guess:

 

I've recently sent a document to Chizh showing demonstrated radar ranges for the pre-MSIP F-15 radar. The current implementation of the APG-68 in DCS exceeds the performance of the eagle in game and matches or exceeds the RL one.

This is incorrect - same radar technology base, same antenna technology base (ie. we're mostly comparing apples to apples), no lack of qualitative statements regarding that a small radar dish will have much less range than a large dish - and you can calculate this difference using the radar equation for a reasonable ball-park.

 

And of course, you have the link to the APG-66 above, which has the benefit of having a very similar antenna to the 68, and overall similar technology base.

 

Other than an actual APG-68v5 document, what else could I get you so that the speculation label comes off and someone could please look at it?

[Andrei]

What you mentioned here GGTharos sounds very reasonable. I agree that this is no longer speculation and this is certainly worth further investigation.

[NineLine]

We will run these suggestions by the Viper team and see what they say, thanks.

[GGTharos]

Great, thanks!

[Santi871]

Thanks for chiming in. The current detection ranges are also particularly questionable considering the 68 only operates in MPRF while in RWS (at least as far as non classified sources state).

[nighthawk2174]

Did the APG68 get anything over the APG66 that would significantly alter its detection range?

[Santi871]

Did the APG68 get anything over the APG66 that would significantly alter its detection range?

 

Allegedly yes, but only brochure "improved detection range", haven't been able to find any numbers. Given that forecast international estimates the 66(V)2 detection range at a maximum of 48nm in look up, I don't think outright doubling the detection range from the 66(V)2 to the 68 to 80 miles for fighter sized targets is a reasonable assumption.

[nighthawk2174]

No I agree seems then it was a incremental improvement probably more in the range of the low to mid 50's in look up then for whatever RCS that original number is for.

[GGTharos]

Allegedly yes, but only brochure "improved detection range", haven't been able to find any numbers. Given that forecast international estimates the 66(V)2 detection range at a maximum of 48nm in look up, I don't think outright doubling the detection range from the 66(V)2 to the 68 to 80 miles for fighter sized targets is a reasonable assumption.

 

 

If I read the brochure correctly, the 40nm was for the 66V1, the V2 is 48nm and V2A is +25% (I assume over the V1), so ~50nm and thus similar to the 68 ... or if +25% compared to the V2, then ~60nm.

 

Edit: Had to read it again. V2 and V2A seem to be the same so ~50nm.

Edited May 13, 2020 by GGTharos

[nighthawk2174]

Makes sense ^ small incremental improvements over a period of time.

[Santi871]

If I read the brochure correctly, the 40nm was for the 66V1, the V2 is 48nm and V2A is +25% (I assume over the V1), so ~50nm and thus similar to the 68 ... or if +25% compared to the V2, then ~60nm.

 

Edit: Had to read it again. V2 and V2A seem to be the same so ~50nm.

 

Yes, I think it's a reasonable ballpark. The only problem now is figuring out what target RCS those range estimates are for, cause even if we're only talking fighters, the RCS difference between something like a clean viper and a flanker is still pretty sizeable.

[Airhunter]

Regardless, currently you can pick up another F16 at 100nm. That is AWG-9 levels of radar...

 

I also provided a nifty research paper on the (v)9 and even subsequent AESA (second response).

[NineLine]

It is being adjusted internally, thanks for the help guys.

[BlackPixxel]

Are there any news for this issue?

 

According to the available information the radar of the DCS F-16 is greatly overperforming in terms of detection range.

Why has it not been corrected yet in such a long time?

Edited February 16, 2021 by BlackPixxel