Has Deka decided yet? What's their next module?

[jojyrocks]

8 hours ago, IcedVenom said:

Bro what are you talking about. J-8II is based off of the Su-15... Also as much as I want a J-7, they are more than likely going to go for the Q-5.

Its basic configuration resembles an enlargement of the delta-winged J-7 (based from Mig 21), utilizes two Liyang (LMC) Wopen-7A turbojet engines, and features a maximum speed of Mach 2.2. The twin-engined J-8 competed with rival Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group's single turbofan engine, canard-delta J-9 project and ultimately emerged as the victor largely due to the existing availability of the former's MiG-21 based powerplant and proven layout, while the J-9 project was cancelled in 1980 due to difficulty in creating a suitably powerful engine. (Source: wiki)

 

So, the J-8, if you see their initial versions was like a MiG 21 with an enlarged nose....

 

The J-8II series appear quite different from the original J-8, with a new forward fuselage, intake ramps with splitter plates and nose structure more reminiscent of the F-4 Phantom II or Sukhoi Su-15 to house a new, more powerful radar.

 

The whole design was based of from the Mig 21 series and the J-7 series.

 

 

[mattebubben]

4 hours ago, IcedVenom said:

I apologize. I was under the assumption that it was inspired by the Su-15 but a more modern domestic design. Thanks for correcting me. If we don't end up getting Su-30MKK or J-7II, I hope we get this one.

EDIT: After further research it turns out I was half right. The solid nose configuration was directly inspired from the Su-15.

 

I have Still been unable to find any article or site that say that any part of the J-8II is based on or directly inspired by the Su-15.

 

I find mention of the J-8II being comparable in aerodynamic performance to the Soviet Su-15

And mention that it is reminiscent of the Su-15 but never any mention that it is actually based on, inspired by or related to it in any way.

 

In order to fit a larger more powerfull radar the nose and intakes for the J-8 needed to be redesigned.

 

And during this time period China had purchased a number of Mig-23s from Egypt.

These were studied in China and their intake design was used as a basis for the J-8II intakes.

And if you compare the actual nose of the J-8II and Su-15 (and not the intakes of the rest of the aircraft) then there is a big difference in the shape and size of the radomes.

 

Their similarity most likely comes from the fact that they were made with similar approaches and from similar Origins.

 

The Su-15 design was basically a slightly enlarged twin engined solid nose version of the Su-9/Su-11 powered by two R-11 (first version)

and then two R-13 engines.

(That were also used in the Mig-21)

 

 

The J-8 Design started as a enlarged twin engined

J-7 / Mig-21 powered by two WP-7A (J-8) or two WP-13A

(J-8II) engines.

 

These engines are reverse engineered versions of the Russian engines

(WP-7 being based on the R-11 and the WP-13 being based on the R-13)

 

And while much larger the Su-9 and Su-11 used the same tailed delta configuration as Mig-21.

 

So it makes perfect Sense that the J-8II and Su-15 look pretty similar as they are designed based on Aircraft that looked somewhat similar,

they use more or less the same engines,

and they are designed to fill more less the same mission

(so they have similar requirements when it comes to radar and flight performance).

 

So it is not a Huge surprise that they ended up look Kinda similar.

 

But looking similar does not have to mean One is based on or inspired by the other 

Edited March 17, 2021 by mattebubben

[WinterH]

My personal order of preferrance is:
1 - Late J-7
2 - Su-30MKK if possible to make realistically
3 - Followed closely by Q-5, although this depends on what kind of Q-5 is possible, if China ever had a version with at least some guided missile/TGP capability to give red side a semi decent striker. If not, Q-5 would fall down a place in the list.
4 - J-8II comes last, somewhat distant last too.

 

But would honestly be happy with any of 4 in DCS.

Edited March 17, 2021 by WinterH

[mattebubben]

On 3/17/2021 at 11:46 AM, WinterH said:

My personal order of preferrance is:
1 - Late J-7
2 - Su-30MKK if possible to make realistically
3 - Followed closely by Q-5, although this depends on what kind of Q-5 is possible, if China ever had a version with at least some guided missile/TGP capability to give red side a semi decent striker. If not, Q-5 would fall down a place in the list.
4 - J-8II comes last, somewhat distant last too.

 

But would honestly be happy with any of 4 in DCS.

 

My order would be pretty similar.

With the J-7 first and the J-8 last.

 

But when it comes to the Su-30 and Q-5 im more conflicted.

 

Personally i would probably get more enjoyment from flying the Q-5

(I prefer simpler cold war era and Single Seat Aircraft over modern glass cockpit and two Seat Aircraft)

 

But i think the Su-30 would be much more important for DCS so i would probably put it higher on the list for that reason.

Edited June 8, 2021 by mattebubben

[Top Jockey]

3 hours ago, WinterH said:

My personal order of preferrance is:
1 - Late J-7
2 - Su-30MKK if possible to make realistically
3 - Followed closely by Q-5, although this depends on what kind of Q-5 is possible, if China ever had a version with at least some guided missile/TGP capability to give red side a semi decent striker. If not, Q-5 would fall down a place in the list.
4 - J-8II comes last, somewhat distant last too.

 

But would honestly be happy with any of 4 in DCS.

 

 

Hello,

 

For much that I would like an Su-30MKK, wouldn't it fall on that cathegory of: "too modern and actual" weapons system to be featured in the sim ?

(And therefore with the typical difficulty to get all the needed accurate information on it.)

 

About the J-7 fighter, I've flown a mod of it years ago on Free Falcon.

Don't have the slightest idea of its featured Flight Model realism, but I liked to see that its perceived sustained turn rate was indeed better than any of the MiG-21's variants.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Top Jockey

[mattebubben]

2 hours ago, Top Jockey said:

 

Hello,

 

For much that I would like an Su-30MKK, wouldn't it fall on that cathegory of: "too modern and actual" weapons system to be featured in the sim ?

(And therefore with the typical difficulty to get all the needed accurate information on it.)

 

About the J-7 fighter, I've flown a mod of it years ago on Free Falcon.

Don't have the slightest idea of its featured Flight Model realism, but I liked to see that its perceived sustained turn rate was indeed better than any of the MiG-21's variants.

 

Well IIRC the Su-30MKK were Delivered to China between 2000-2003.

 

So if they were to model a Early model MKK

(so as delivered 20 years ago)

 

Then it would actually pre-date the F-16C and F/A-18C etc that are modeled in the game as they are both modeled as they were in the mid 2000s 

 

(With the AV-8B (NA),A-10C and JF-17 versions etc being even more Up to date)

 

So given that Deka has already made a 5-10 year old JF-17 that is far more recent then a 2000-2003 era Su-30MKK

i would say it probably depends on the local laws and what contacts and sources they have etc.

 

But since Deka has shown that they are openly considering it i would Guess they dont see it as impossible.

Edited March 17, 2021 by mattebubben

[Top Jockey]

1 hour ago, mattebubben said:

Well IIRC the Su-30MKK were Delivered to China between 2000-2003.

 

So if they were to model a Early model MKK

(so as delivered 20 years ago)

 

Then it would actually pre-date the F-16C and F/A-18C etc that are modeled in the game as they are both modeled as they were in the mid 2000s 

 

(With the AV-8B (NA),A-10C and JF-17 versions etc being even more Up to date)

 

So given that Deka has already made a 5-10 year old JF-17 that is far more recent then a 2000-2003 era Su-30MKK

i would say it probably depends on the local laws and what contacts and sources they have etc.

 

But since Deka has shown that they are openly considering i would Guess they dont see it as impossible.

 

 

Thank you.

 

All that I didn't know, but it it seems good news afterall:

- I thought the Su-30MKK was somewhat newer;

- was forgeting the fact that being a PLAAF aircraft, doesn't have so hard restrictions on releasing the information needed to feature it in a PC sim, (contrary to Russian Air Force aircraft).

 

In that case, I wish they'll go ahead with it then - I would buy it!

Edited March 17, 2021 by Top Jockey

[IcedVenom]

7 hours ago, mattebubben said:

I have Still been unable to find any article or site that say that any part of the J-8II is based on or directly inspired by the Su-15.

 

I find mention of the J-8II being comparable in aerodynamic performance to the Soviet Su-15

And mention that it is reminiscent of the Su-15 but never any mention that it is actually based on, inspired by or related to it in any way.

 

In order to fit a larger more powerfull radar the nose and intakes for the J-8 needed to be redesigned.

 

And during this time period China had purchased a number of Mig-23s from Egypt.

These were studied in China and their intake design was used as a basis for the J-8II intakes.

And if you compare the actual nose of the J-8II and Su-15 (and not the intakes of the rest of the aircraft) then there is a big difference in the shape and size of the radomes.

 

Their similarity most likely comes from the fact that they were made with similar approaches and from similar Origins.

 

The Su-15 design was basically a slightly enlarged twin engined solid nose version of the Su-9/Su-11 powered by two R-11 (first version)

and then two R-13 engines.

(That were also used in the Mig-21)

 

 

The J-8 Design started as a enlarged twin engined

J-7 / Mig-21 powered by two WP-7A (J-8) or two WP-13A

(J-8II) engines.

 

These engines are reverse engineered versions of the Russian engines

(WP-7 being based on the R-11 and the WP-13 being based on the R-13)

 

And while much larger the Su-9 and Su-11 used the same tailed delta configuration as Mig-21.

 

So it makes perfect Sense that the J-8II and Su-15 look pretty similar as they are designed based on Aircraft that looked somewhat similar,

they use more or less the same engines,

and they are designed to fill more less the same mission

(so they have similar requirements when it comes to radar and flight performance).

 

So it is not a Huge surprise that they ended up look Kinda similar.

 

But looking similar does not have to mean One is based on or inspired by the other 

 

Very cool. Thanks for sharing! If no Su-30MKK, this is my #2 choice!

[Hornet_Driver]

I want the Su-30MKK so bad, though I don´t think it´s probable since they don´t want to model those MFDs. Would be nice if Deka announced their final decision...

[F-2]

1 hour ago, Hornet_Driver said:

I want the Su-30MKK so bad, though I don´t think it´s probable since they don´t want to model those MFDs. Would be nice if Deka announced their final decision...

Maybe, but I’m sure they wouldn’t have announced publicly they were considering it if they weren’t open to the possibility.

[Jester986]

I hate to admit how good the Su-30 would be for DCS when I'm over here being weird and wishing for the H-6 or IL-28.

[F-2]

3 hours ago, Jester986 said:

I hate to admit how good the Su-30 would be for DCS when I'm over here being weird and wishing for the H-6 or IL-28.

One does not exclude the others.

[Bananabrai]

What would the Su-30MKK bring in terms of A-G capabilites?

[Harlikwin]

2 hours ago, Bananabrai said:

What would the Su-30MKK bring in terms of A-G capabilites?

 

Good question. I mainly think of in terms of being very capable in the AA environment, but it was multirole but aside from Kh-31P's I'm not really sure what it could carry in terms of smart munitions or TGPs to employ them. 

 

I mean, in the current ecosystem, IMO "red" would mainly benefit from a modern top tier A/A platform that could easily go toe-to-toe with stuff like the Eurofighter or the F15E that are coming, the JF17 is a pretty decent striker already and can serve as a stand-in for other planes. The other thing "red" would benefit from is a a 70's/80's soviet era precision strike aircraft like a su-17m4 or Mig-27 or even a FF su-25, or in the case of China a Q-5 variant as a stand-in, since we will have the full lineup of migs from the 15-29 (minus the 17) from 1950-1985 or so pretty soon.

 

[WinterH]

The early generation Su-30s, which an unupdated MKK would be I think, may not prove especially great with precision attack capabilities as far as I know. Expecting it to go toe to toe with Eurofighter is a stretch too I'd say. Its systems and missiles may even fare a bit worse than JF-17, as the latter is pretty much a 2010s aircraft even if a cheap one.

 

It would be full fidelity Russian fighter that would be leaps and bounds better than any other existing Russian fighters in DCS that is for sure. But current and upcoming top tier bluefor stuff will still be somewhat ahead of it regardless. Both in AA and AG I'd think.

 

That's another reason why I'd personally be more excited for 70s-80s stuff instead. But don't get me wrong, if possible to do realistically, a Su-30 full fidelity, even an earlier one, is definitely exciting even for me, who tend to prefer oldie stuff. Let us hear what will Deka end up telling us when they decide I guess :).

[J20Stronk]

Su-30s are no slouches when it comes to AG/AS.

 

MKK and MKK-2 can carry:

>Kh-29T/Ls TV/Laser guided missile.

>Kh-31A/P for antiship and S/DEAD respectively

>KAB-1500Kr/L and KAB-500Kr/L TV/Laser guided bombs.

>Kh-59 Cruise Missiles, both TV/D-LINK Land Attack and AShM variants.

 

A wide arsenal of unguided weapons like:

>S-8, S-24, S-25 rockets (incl. S-25L)

>100kg, 250kg, and 500kg class bombs ranging from slicks, cluster, anti-runway, concrete penetrators, etc.

 

Sure, it won't be like the Mudhen, slinging 30 JDAMs at everything it sees, but just like our JF-17 it doesn't need to carry the entire PLAAF arsenal to be effective. And who knows, maybe the Chinese managed to upgrade some MKKs with their own weapon systems like the BRM Type 90s, LS-6 and GB-6? Maybe even PL-8, PL-10, PL-12?...

Edited April 1, 2021 by J20Stronk

[IcedVenom]

Any news on what's coming next?

[hamza_Khan]

 

This should be Deka's next module lol.

[Mustang25]

1 hour ago, hamza_Khan said:

This should be Deka's next module lol.

 

Is a block 3 even feasible? I'm assuming AESA probably not but the other features maybe?

[hamza_Khan]

22 minutes ago, Mustang25 said:

 

Is a block 3 even feasible? I'm assuming AESA probably not but the other features maybe?

 

you are right, it's not feasible. But It's been pointed out many times that right now we have JF-17 Block 1 with some Block 2 features. So in future if get full block 2, then maybe be can have blk2 with some blk3 features

Edited April 27, 2021 by hamza_Khan

[Mustang25]

1 hour ago, hamza_Khan said:

 

you are right, it's not feasible. But It's been pointed out many times that right now we have JF-17 Block 1 with some Block 2 features. So in future if get full block 2, then maybe be can have blk2 with some blk3 features

 

 

Good point! I hope we do see some of those upgrades from Deka, it would make an already great module even better!

[Max1mus]

Dont be scared to dream a little bigger. DCS and the whole combat flight sim market has been waiting for a modern redfor fighter for at least a decade. You releasing a satisfying one would put you on a level that no other developer could hope to achieve.

 

By releasing even a slightly modernized SU-30, you wouldnt just provide one of the most (if not the most) eagerly awaited modules in DCS, but you would also save the sim itself by providing all these new modern BLUFOR modules something to fight against, both in Multi- and Singleplayer.

 

Think about the long term advantages of this. EDs F-18 was just the beginning, what followed was a rush of nearly every single western fourth gen getting announced. The Flanker, Fulcrum and Foxhound family is even bigger.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Max1mus

[Max1mus]

On 3/26/2021 at 3:15 PM, J20Stronk said:

Su-30s are no slouches when it comes to AG/AS.

 

MKK and MKK-2 can carry:

>Kh-29T/Ls TV/Laser guided missile.

>Kh-31A/P for antiship and S/DEAD respectively

>KAB-1500Kr/L and KAB-500Kr/L TV/Laser guided bombs.

>Kh-59 Cruise Missiles, both TV/D-LINK Land Attack and AShM variants.

 

A wide arsenal of unguided weapons like:

>S-8, S-24, S-25 rockets (incl. S-25L)

>100kg, 250kg, and 500kg class bombs ranging from slicks, cluster, anti-runway, concrete penetrators, etc.

 

Sure, it won't be like the Mudhen, slinging 30 JDAMs at everything it sees, but just like our JF-17 it doesn't need to carry the entire PLAAF arsenal to be effective. And who knows, maybe the Chinese managed to upgrade some MKKs with their own weapon systems like the BRM Type 90s, LS-6 and GB-6? Maybe even PL-8, PL-10, PL-12?...

 

 

I would argue that the anti-ship and maybe even anti-radar abilities of MKK are better than the strike eagles.

 

At Air to Air in a 2000s setup, without PL-12, it will be either slightly inferior or significantly inferior, depending on how much better R-27 performs with the MKK radar when compared to the current DCS flankers.

 

With PL-12, it will be either on par with or even superior to the strike eagle in Air to Air.

 

All this considered, MKK would range anywhere from very nice to AWESOME, either way its worth it, especially since no one else is moving a finger.

[LCO489]

Considering the post title, it seens they have decided.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by LCO489
correct quote

[Etha2007]

1 hour ago, LCO489 said:

Considering the post title, it seens they have decided.

 

 

There's multiple ways to interpret this.

 

One could be-

 

"There's something we are cooking up for the Marianas (AI Asset), but it isn't the Su-30"

 

Or it could be-

 

"Our module is going to fit into the Marianas, and it won't be the Su-30"