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If you were to choose between Flanker and Eagle...


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If you were to choose between Flanker and Eagle...  

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  1. 1. If you were to choose between Flanker and Eagle...

    • Su-27
      288
    • F-15C
      91


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F15C, likely if it was a version that included Link 16 , JHMCs and Aim9X

 

i wouldn't be interested for a su27 unless its the SM. But the reason why thats not going to happen any time soon has been discussed to death countless times.


Edited by Kev2go

 

 

 

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Su-27 is the obvious choice. Real dream would be a Su-30 of some description, but well we all know it's not happening.

 

As the poll doesn't specify the variant, it is acceptable to take ANY Su-27 variant and that includes Su-30 and Su-35 etc. As after all, those are just renamed name of Su-27 variants for marketing terms.

 

Example, Su-30 is same as Su-27PU and Su-35 is Su-27BM (again depends what version).

 

So with just "Su-27" one can go latest Su-35S or Su-30M2 etc.

 

Alone a Su-27SM is glass cockpit upgrade to our Su-27S, from 1992 to 2002, regardless it didn't receive sales.

But it likely could put nice challenge for any bluewing...

 

su-35-710.jpg

 

So "Su-27" really would mean allot more in wide variation than "some old Su-27S" from 1982.

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What ever version we get I'd really hope for R-77 capability so it can be competitive with AMRAAM. Though ultimately, I feel like DCS should have entire lineages of aircraft. I'd want both the most barebones 80's Su-27 and the Su-35S for sure.

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..Alone a Su-27SM is glass cockpit upgrade to our Su-27S, from 1992 to 2002, regardless it didn't receive sales.

But it likely could put nice challenge for any bluewing...

 

su-35-710.jpg

 

Thats the cockpit of an Su-35(Su-27M) test aircraft from late eighties.

 

So "Su-27" really would mean allot more in wide variation than "some old Su-27S" from 1982.

 

Pretty sure that "Su-27" in the poll means the same variant as we have now, but as full fidelity vs. the F-15C ditto.

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Thats the cockpit of an Su-35(Su-27M) test aircraft from late eighties.[/Quote]

 

Yes.... As I said it is the Su-27M/Su-35 cockpit. Three multifunction monochrome CRT displays OR three color LCD displays. Came to sale in 1992 and ended in 2002. Then later came a second Su-27M upgrade program (again as well Su-35, that eventually lead to Su-35S).

 

 

Pretty sure that "Su-27" in the poll means the same variant as we have now, but as full fidelity vs. the F-15C ditto.

 

 

We have Su-27S, first serial production version with most basic features, like A-G for rockets and dumb bombs. And even the Su-27SK, the export version of S model we have, came with R-77 support.

 

If you read the OP post, he specifically says that Su-27 in poll doesn't mean any certain variant, like what we have. But any variant in Su-27 family. And that means every Su-2x, Su-3x and Su-4x variant. Only Su-57 (F-22+F-35=57 = Su-57) becomes as non-Su-27. One could argue that Su-47 Berkut ain't anymore Su-27 family because forward sweep wings, but yet it still is.

 

And as well OP specifically left F-15 version open, be it A or C or E (that we are getting) or any other block, suite etc.

 

My point was, as any Su-27 variant can be considered in the vote, it means basically any Su-27 variant there is, until Su-57. As Su-27 ain't different from Su-30 or Su-35 etc. And old really early 90's aircrafts offers glass cockpit designs etc, as unlike people usually thinking, Su-27 was very modern compared to Western fighters.

So to challenge F-16C blk50 and F/A-18C lot 20 in DCS and both from 2005/2006, you don't need to go to 2002-2003 Su-27 variant, but you can take older version and still challenge those very modern ones very easily and even top them many ways.

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What ever version we get I'd really hope for R-77 capability so it can be competitive with AMRAAM. Though ultimately, I feel like DCS should have entire lineages of aircraft. I'd want both the most barebones 80's Su-27 and the Su-35S for sure.
The r77 as it is now in game is really poor performing. Too draggy and no loft capability shortens its range even more (not that i know the RL missile is capable of lofting)

 

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Yes.... As I said it is the Su-27M/Su-35 cockpit. Three multifunction monochrome CRT displays OR three color LCD displays. Came to sale in 1992 and ended in 2002. Then later came a second Su-27M upgrade program (again as well Su-35, that eventually lead to Su-35S).

 

Yes - well ok I just got the impression that you thought it was an Su-27SM cockpit.

 

If you read the OP post, he specifically says that Su-27 in poll doesn't mean any certain variant, like what we have. But any variant in Su-27 family.

 

Yeah I see that now - sorry my bad :) .

 

Mind you, I don't think many people who voted for it picked up on that bit - normally when you are asked about the "Su-27", you think of the base version and not derivatives like the Su-30 or Su-35.

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The r77 as it is now in game is really poor performing. Too draggy and no loft capability shortens its range even more (not that i know the RL missile is capable of lofting)

All the missiles are being reworked with CFD though, so in the long term the R-77 should be competitive with at least the AIM-120B.

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Yes.... As I said it is the Su-27M/Su-35 cockpit. Three multifunction monochrome CRT displays OR three color LCD displays. Came to sale in 1992 and ended in 2002. Then later came a second Su-27M upgrade program (again as well Su-35, that eventually lead to Su-35S).

 

 

 

 

 

We have Su-27S, first serial production version with most basic features, like A-G for rockets and dumb bombs. And even the Su-27SK, the export version of S model we have, came with R-77 support.

 

If you read the OP post, he specifically says that Su-27 in poll doesn't mean any certain variant, like what we have. But any variant in Su-27 family. And that means every Su-2x, Su-3x and Su-4x variant. Only Su-57 (F-22+F-35=57 = Su-57) becomes as non-Su-27. One could argue that Su-47 Berkut ain't anymore Su-27 family because forward sweep wings, but yet it still is.

 

And as well OP specifically left F-15 version open, be it A or C or E (that we are getting) or any other block, suite etc.

 

My point was, as any Su-27 variant can be considered in the vote, it means basically any Su-27 variant there is, until Su-57. As Su-27 ain't different from Su-30 or Su-35 etc. And old really early 90's aircrafts offers glass cockpit designs etc, as unlike people usually thinking, Su-27 was very modern compared to Western fighters.

So to challenge F-16C blk50 and F/A-18C lot 20 in DCS and both from 2005/2006, you don't need to go to 2002-2003 Su-27 variant, but you can take older version and still challenge those very modern ones very easily and even top them many ways.

 

 

the likelyhood you can find that aforementioned 1992 prototype that was the Su27M for cockpit modeling and necessary documentation on that specific model today is slim to nil, relative to the actual modernized Su27's that were produced or upgraded and put into actual operational use along with export sale. But of course ED has thier reasons for not doing too recent redforce.

 

and no for 1992 that not that advanced aircraft when you consider that designs like YF23 and YF22 first flew as early as 1990. More like it Su27M would have caught up , or rather closed the gap with neer peer avionics s to other gen 4's at the time if it had actually approved for mass production and operational service back then.


Edited by Kev2go

 

 

 

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So, USSR_Rick said that we should ask the question more precisely to gauge the real interest in the red fighter. Suggested competition was Su-27 vs. F-15

Here it is then.

 

If you were to choose the next module - just one, full fidelity simulation, would you select Su-27 (no matter exact model) or would you select F-15C.

 

Let's say epic simulation for epic price.

 

...And as well OP specifically left F-15 version open, be it A or C or E (that we are getting) or any other block, suite etc...

Here he did specify the F-15 model(C, text and poll option) but not the Su-27 model. Over at reddit it seems the vote was between Su-27SM vs F-15C

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I think many people familiar with DCS at large for the last 10 years and that is a F-15/F-18 fan would concede to Su-27 not as their top choice for flying but for the devs to make it, because honestly you got F-18, F-16, Harrier, F-14 already there on the US side which are not F-15 but kinda something like it.

 

But I could be wrong, perhaps people are more egoistic about their favourites and don't care about anything else :p


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Hoggit poll results

 

Source:

 

 

Voted - 1048

Su-27SM - 664

F-15C 384

 

Just for the info gals and guys!

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because honestly you got F-18, F-16, Harrier, F-14 already there on the US side which aren't F-15 but they're pretty close.

That's the thing I disagree with. DCS devs go through a lot of trouble to model specific aircraft, not "close enoughs". The F-18 is nothing like the F-15, not with it's air to performance. The F-16 is lacking in avionics and endurance. The F-14 is a 2 seater alien without AMRAAM and I'd argue it feels more like a Su-27 than the F-15.

 

 

Likewise on the reverse side if we do get the Su-27, would that mean we have a close enough stand in for the MiG-29? Not at all in my mind.

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and no for 1992 that not that advanced aircraft when you consider that designs like YF23 and YF22 first flew as early as 1990. More like it Su27M would have caught up , or rather closed the gap with neer peer avionics s to other gen 4's at the time if it had actually approved for mass production and operational service back then.

 

27M was indeed a modernisation which would increase Su-27s capabilities but... There was no gap to close as both F-15C and Su-27 were +- equel before aim-120 implemented to the eagle. What's more, Su-27M wasn't made to compete with YF-22/23, MiG-1.44 was intended to be the jet to do that

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the likelyhood you can find that aforementioned 1992 prototype that was the Su27M for cockpit modeling and necessary documentation on that specific model today is slim to nil

 

Did you look in the Sibnia and Tsagi database and know this ?

Because one of the prototypes (T10M-10 i believe) alone made more than 80 flights over multiple years .So you claim there is no documentation on that ?

 

and no for 1992 that not that advanced aircraft when you consider that designs like YF23 and YF22 first flew as early as 1990.

 

Ram and geometry designed to defeat radar was first used by Germany in the 40s.

Thrust vectoring technology was first used as well by Germany in the 40s on missiles .

:D

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27M was indeed a modernisation which would increase Su-27s capabilities but... There was no gap to close as both F-15C and Su-27 were +- equel before aim-120 implemented to the eagle. What's more, Su-27M wasn't made to compete with YF-22/23, MiG-1.44 was intended to be the jet to do that

 

The Su27 was behind in certain avionics.

 

 

Spo15 is relatively crude RWR for the time period. And the APG63 > N001. N001 radar borrowed many design elements from N019 radar from the Mig29.

 

And its not just better detection ranges. but also better ECCM capabilities, and having additional features like RAID and even multi-mode capability. ( A/G modes) as a cherry on top.

 

Even before Aim120. the Su27 was only a superior WVR, and largely due to R73 and off boresight helmet monocle cueing.

 

IF anything the N011 radar antenna for the Su27M was more similar to what the APG63 was.


Edited by Kev2go

 

 

 

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Did you look in the Sibnia and Tsagi database and know this ?

Because one of the prototypes (T10M-10 i believe) alone made more than 80 flights over multiple years .So you claim there is no documentation on that ?

 

 

 

Ram and geometry designed to defeat radar was first used by Germany in the 40s.

Thrust vectoring technology was first used as well by Germany in the 40s on missiles .

:D

 

 

and??

 

The first turbojet engine was invented and patented in 1929 by an Englishman.

 

 

SAR capable radars were already developed in the 1950's... yet realistically you dont see SAR on certain fighter radars until what? the late 80s ?

 

 

In this context when the technology was initially developed or tested in some way doesn't as matter when it was actually applied to practical use.

 

 

 

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The Su27 was behind in certain avionics. [/Quote]

 

Like on what?

 

Spo15 is relatively crude RWR for the time period.[/Quote]

 

I would disagree with that. The SPO-10 would be what I agreed upon, but it was also from much older era.

 

 

But our SPO-15 is unrealistic and extremely limited, why the DCS version can't be used to show how it works.

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Like on what?

 

 

 

 

 

RWR and Radar mostly. if you bothered to read


Edited by Kev2go

 

 

 

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Like on what?

 

 

 

 

But our SPO-15 is unrealistic and extremely limited, why the DCS version can't be used to show how it works.

 

Same thing with western RWR's.... They two are more limited IN game than they are IRL.

 

 

I didn't need to play FC jets to judge RWR on its effectiveness.. Just from reading about. Just becuase the SPO15 is not anywhere as poop as the SPO10 doesn't mean it isn't crude by by the time of the 1980s.

 

t Just by the fact its a analog system and indicators are more limited and not as "smart" or user friendly relative to other types. They in turn have Alpha Numeric symbology for more accurate and specific threat type identification, threat rings give a better idea of the severity of the threats, general distance, more precise direction , threat prioritization and such. To summarize the way the information is presented is just far more sophisticated and more user friendly for the pilot on stuff like the ALR56 or the ALR67 than the SPo15 by a fair margin.

 

No one here is going to buy the farm your selling


Edited by Kev2go

 

 

 

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RWR and Radar mostly. if you bothered to read

 

How? Because you said so?

 

No one here is going to buy the farm your selling

 

As you now so "politely" said *peep*, we others can get back to the thread of the poll that which one someone would like to have those two while you keep going with personal insults.


Edited by Fri13

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  • 3 weeks later...

Su-27 for sure.

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